And thanks for making my case. I've watched skating for decades so you're not telling me anything I don't already know. I look at height , so you can't miss his head position unless one is utterly blind. Watching live events on Big screen TV and/or computer screen are not considered "video" and judges have screens in front of them to watch the jumps just as closely as I do. Seriously, what planet are you on? First you make a bogus claim that full levels are merely handed out to anyone when even the best skaters get level 3's and now you want to pretend what - judges can't see jumps as closely as I can? This is getting ridiculous.
Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?
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And thanks for making my case. I've watched skating for decades so you're not telling me anything I don't already know. I look at height , so you can't miss his head position unless one is utterly blind. Watching live events on Big screen TV and/or computer screen are not considered "video" and judges have screens in front of them to watch the jumps just as closely as I do. Seriously, what planet are you on? First you make a bogus claim that full levels are merely handed out to anyone when even the best skaters get level 3's and now you want to pretend what - judges can't see jumps as closely as I can? This is getting ridiculous.
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Then what, what, what are fans of Hanyu complaining about? He drowns out all the rest.
Adam is probably the first skater whose feet I watch as closely as I do. His jumps may be inconsistent, but the footwork is not. I love Yuma's SP footwork. I hope he does more programs like it.
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The GPF is the first time I've really admired Yuma's SP. I think it's because I perceived a level of his buy-in to the program that I've missed before - and I know opinions may differ. Before this performance, I felt a sense of inauthenticity - like he was going through the motions of a program he didn't really like that much.
On the other hand, his long, which I have LOVED all season, seemed to lack the commitment of previous outings. Like he just wanted to get it over with. Shun Sato met the moment skating after Ilia, and Yuma did not. Just my opinion.
Quite aside from the judging, the Scale of Values and the program component factors structurally make it impossible to make up the difference of multiple quads with non-jump elements.
We've just seen close to the maximum jump score possible with the current jump rules and no quints attempted.
The max will get a bit lower with the removal of a jump element next year, which will change the strategy for those who want to maximize their jump points -- those who are pushing the jump content to the limit (from whom I expect quad-quad or quad-3A combo/sequence among the fewer jump elements); those who focus mainly on triples including triple axel, and maybe a quad or two (mid-pack men, top-jumping women); and those who just stick to triples and are therefore more limited in their maximum jump base value.
The difference between skaters attempting comparable jump content can certainly be bridged by non-jump scores, and by GOEs, especially if the skater with the harder jumps also makes mistakes on some of them.
But if you have basically clean programs by a skater who is amazing on jumps but "just" very good on other elements, skating skill, and artistry, a skater who is amazing on basic skating but just very good on jumps, other elements, and artistry, and another who is amazing at artistry but just very good at jumps, other elements, and basic skating -- the one with the higher jump difficulty will win.
Other elements, GOEs, and components can add up to enough to overcome an extra one or two quads, but not three or four of them. There just aren't enough points available for everything else, assuming that the brilliant quad jumper is also "just" very good at everything else.
Remember, what you might think of as "average" compared to the other skaters on the Grand Prix or in the free skate at Worlds is actually very good compared to the international senior field as a whole, not to mention lower levels and domestic seniors who aren't good enough to get international assignments.
Yes, that is true.
But levels for spins and steps are capped at level 4 for each. The highest-value non-jump elements in a senior free skate are combination spin with change of foot at 3.50 (with or without a flying entry -- it's allowed to do one of each in the free skate) and step sequence at 3.90. So more than a double axel, but less than a triple toe.
For a good spinner, it's possible to be more consistent at earning high GOEs than quad jumpers can count on for their top jump content. Nevertheless, the maximum score with straight +5 GOEs for a spin is 5.25 -- less than just-OK (0 GOE) triple flip.
For level 4 step sequence with straight +5 GOEs, the maximum score that can be earned is 3.90 + 1.95 = 5.85, less than a 0 GOE triple lutz.
And while we're at it, the maximum points a skater could earn for a choreographic sequence is 3.00 base value + 2.50 GOE or maximum 5.5.
There just aren't enough point-earning opportunities available to make up for a difference of multiple quads.
Definitely!
If we really want to encourage skaters to excel in all areas -- and to reward each skater for excelling in the areas they stand out from the crowd, as well as lesser rewards for fitting in with the rest of the crowd at the top, then we should want more opportunities for the exceptional blade-to-ice skaters, the exceptional spinners, maybe the exceptional artists to push the scoring boundaries in their own areas of excellence in similar ways that the exceptional jumpers are pushing the boundaries not only athletically but also in scoring potential with their jumps.
How to do this is up for debate.
Taking away one jump pass may close the gap a little bit.
So would increasing the factors applied to the program components. Or the factors applied to non-jump GOEs even if the base values stay the same, so the excellent level 4 spin or step sequence can gain more than 1 or 2 points over a just pretty-good level 4 element.
With PCS, finding ways to systematically separate the scores for each component so that, e.g., 9s in a medal contender's best area along with 7s in their weakest area will be more common, when appropriate.
I wouldn't expect to see spreads much larger than that, because basic skating ability will also affect the strength or weakness of the performance. But in theory judges should be encouraged to give wider spreads when they do believe a skater's component skills are noticeably unbalanced in a given performance.
(Going back to the 5 component categories would also make it easier for judges to reflect these differences.)
Meanwhile, Mr. Malinin has also weighed in on this question:
He mostly was asked, and answered, about jumps. But he also had this to say:
"Right now, the jumps are the most valuable elements, so everyone's going to try to master their jumps and they might not necessarily work on everything else just because they might be able to sacrifice it with adding another quad, for example.
But if we increase everything to be a similar level, then everyone will try to work on the spins and the steps and the footwork so that everything is worth taking the risk to work on it."
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for Mr. Malinin.
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So he plans to do two quints next season?
I don't know -- that seems pretty ambitious. Maybe he should play it safe and scale back to one quint and a quad/quad combo.
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Mr. Malinin and his seven quads is also doing quite well on Spanish Twitter, considering he didn't have any boost from using a popular song by a popular artist. Probably could have made more rounds if he had kept his Succession program- people love that soundtrack.
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And why should ISU engage in promoting Ilia Malinin in Milano? Their job is to promote the sport, not any particular skater. And, honestly, celebrating the legend of the sport who is still the most popular skater on the planet is a perfect way to do just this. Most sport organisations do it. Actually, I think not doing it is rather silly.I think it is very unusual for an official sports oversight organization to engage is GOAT-crowning. That's the job of fans -- and possibly of the entertainment media.
Secondly, in terms of attracting new fans, especially younger ones, to the sport, I do not think that it is a good strategy to rely on extolling the virtues of the heroes of the past, especially when the context is, "These guys we have out there now are not nearly as good." Well, then why would anyone want to turn out for an ISI competition to watch them?
I do not expect the USFSA to embark on a camplaign of promoting Ilia Malinin in Milano by celebrating the birthday of Brian Boitano (October 22).
Seems many people agreed x pages ago that celebrating the past greats and focusing on the present is not contradictory and should go hand in hand. So this is what just happened. And if you want to know, Ilia Malinin in the very interview after the GPF spoke a lot about how everything he did was inspired by Yuzuru Hanyu and would never have been achieved without him (and also posted "happy birthday" wishes to Yuzu today calling him the GOAT )
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Having just watched Ilia's LP on the major U.S. network TV. coverage, the issue of quads versus everything else has come into sharper focus for me.
The reason that Ilia scored 40 points higher than anyone else is not just because he had more and harder quads but also because they were of superior quality. Every quad that he attempted got -- and deserved -- base value plus 30$% or base value plus 40%. This double whammy of quantity AND quality put the contest out of reach for all the others regardless of how fine their step sequences and their choreography might be.
Of course the big quadster might have an off day, ice is slippery, etc., etc. Still, under the current scale of values the skaters who "merely" present 3 or 4 quads, maybe a 4T, 4S, 4Lz and that's all -- their only chance is to hope that the 7 quad guy falls a lot and hands then the title by forfeit (as in fact is just what happened in t short program).
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Well, for one thing, Ilia Malinin will be skating in the contest that they are promoting. Evgeny Plushenko will not. Dick Button will not.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. It is not their job to promote any particular skater.
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Yep. Legends do not need promotion any more, they're just being celebrated, and this is promoting the sport. Celebrating a legend is way more fair than promoting just one particular skater taking part in the competition before this very competition, as the latter might be seen as bias and favouritism, especially in a judged sport.
Is that right. Well, let's say Ilia and one other guy skate the same number and type of quads. What happens?
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I do not think this was the intention though, and BTW these new stars invoke this very legend themselves as someone they look up to and crown as the GOAT which is an important detail, I guess,
And whichever way you'd look at it, any new star is still two individual Olympic golds away and this is as objective as can be, and a hell of the distance to go, TBH....
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I'm kind of laughing at this, because if you look at their protocols, Malinin not only has harder content, his element spread is better from a composition point of view.
That particular part of his jumping ability serves him well, when he can load up difficulty ("exciting elements") anywhere he chooses.
I don't know about you, but I'm on a planet where watching skating for decades, clearly, doesn't translate to much.
You realize when judges are judging, they're judging what they're seeing right in front of them most of the time? You think they care about what 'bugs' random fans? You think anyone cares about how somebody's arms, toes, fingers, neck, head are positioned, when they *do* review jumps? Or that they're more focused on the feet at take-off and landing, and the stretch and stability in the air?
Do you expect them to review each and every single element that happened between 2-4 minutes, simply because they can?
Do you have any idea about how to evaluate level calls? Have you gone and done so for multiple skaters? Do you even know what a turn is? When I talked about Sochi, did you go and see how those levels were granted and what kind of discussions went on?
Because unless you do and did so, I have to say, there's no point in continuing with this, because it's indeed ridiculous. I never said "full level calls are always given in the favour of skaters with good reputation". That never happens even with UR calls. Some mistakes are too obvious to deny. Others, well, skaters with good reputation (or when there's some other agenda) get away with, because they're given more benefit of the doubt than the others.
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They had good take-offs which is VERY appreciable in the current field of top skaters. I mean, if we take the four highest scoring in this Free, he's undeniably the best in take-offs. Furthermore, it seems that he's improved his landing towards less stiffness (which reassures me on his health). But in jump size he's medium (I have nothing against it, but it would be part of the "superior quality"), he's got rather less running edges? and they lack rotation. In the Short Program, he got two qs for three underrotations, here he didn't even get a q yet there were underrotations.
The second reason why he scored 40 points higher than anyone, is that he got a high score for nearly inexistent Components.
As his abilities are well above what his Components deserved in this jump contest, I believe that should he work on his Quadruple jumps rotations (after seeing this program I now think that except the 4A, which he's never rotated to a q, and which he'd rather ditch, he can) and a more full and elaborate skating content, with two less Quadruple jumps and perhaps one more 3A because he doesn't need much preparation for them and wouldn't need to repeat Quadruples, he might deserve a higher score, able to reach that deserved by Shun Sato (when clean). Otherwise, he's going to get another chocolate Olympic Gold Medal, liable to revision when eyes are allowed to open. But I'm afraid that he doesn't have time enough before the Olympic Games. (And ever more, that nobody cares that some day he'd have to give back the medal.) Deserving about 20 more points in Components in the Free seems accessible then, for which replacing two Quadruple jumps by a Triple Axel and a 3Lz (as he already has a +3F Combination) wouldn't be a too big loss. And rotating all the jumps...
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Well, that kind of supports the point I am trying to make. Yes, if both Ilia and some other guy skate a 7 quad program including a quad Axel and get all jump GOEs in the +3 to +4 range, then the other guy might come out on top.
I do not expect this to happen.
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I was most impressed by the tightness and quickness of his revolutions in the air., together with his air posture (straight axis). Yes, his ability to get up and spinning on his jump takeoffs -- that's what gives him the ability to do seven quads and make it look easy.
Does that alone make him the odds-on favorite every time out? Yes, actually it does.
Of course "there's many a slip twixt the cup and the lip." The odds-on favorite doesn't always win. Stuff happens. That's sports.
