Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

[Remilia]

A Patrick stan and Yuzu stan beefing, it's like I've been transported back to 2015!

 

[4everchan]

Just to stick to facts.

You are posting these things as if a Patrick fan would be oblivious of his favourite skater's faults. It's not the case. Pretty aware of his lows but also very aware of his best skating. There is no need to try to show that Patrick wasn't perfect. He wasn't Yet, what he achieved was a turning point in men's skating. Tracy Wilson said it herself : Patrick was the first skater who combined the beautiful skating with the quads. She knows one thing or two about that.



Enjoy your Saturday activities.

 

[Mathman]

As for Ilia Malinin, I don't think that anyone is scheming at ways to hold him back.

Contrariwise, I don't think that anyone is expecting him to bring new fans to the sport or to increase its dwindling popularity.

 

[4everchan]

No rules can affect Ilia. He is above and beyond everyone in base value and the only way he is not winning is if he doesn't skate. I don't think this discussion is about him at all. He does his stuff and he does it well. Not my cup of tea but I have other skaters I can watch and enjoy : Yuma, Adam, Kazuki, Lucas, Jun, etc. there are still some skaters who are well-rounded in the field.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

The Base Value of underrotated jumps is 80% of the full base value. Just saying.

 

[gkelly]

It's true that with the number of jump passes in the Free, and the total number of available Quadruple jumps, even in the times when Ilia Malinin would rotate his regular Quadruples and practice 4 + 4, he was barred from putting one such combination in a layout because he would lose on TES; yet I do believe that he would have been able to have it in competition.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

The current free skate rules allow 7 jump passes, of which three can be combinations/sequences of two jumps, with three jumps allowed in one of them.

That's a total of 11 jumps across those 7 passes that can earn base value.

Two triples can be repeated, or one triple and one quad. So if you can do six different kinds of triples and six different kinds of quads, you could legally include almost all of them once in a program, or you could repeat your best harder ones and leave out one or two of the easier triples.

And now quintuple jumps are also permitted.

There is no rule forbidding inclusion of that level of difficulty.

So it is not accurate to say that skaters are "barred" from doing that kind of difficulty.

What prevents skaters from attempting all that is the realities of the human body, which can only manage the extreme physical and mental effort needed to execute the top-difficulty jumps so many times before fatigue, and therefore errors of execution, set in. Four minutes is not a lot of time to fit in seven top-difficulty jump passes and also include the other required elements, and if possible also some difficult transitions and performance quality.

But now I don't think that he would be able. Maybe the suggestion came from people believing that he would still be able, and be the only one to benefit of such change of rules; or maybe it came from people willing to advantage other skaters because they haven't thought of that or know that a 4 + 4 would be inaccessible to him now;

What do you mean about 4+4 being inaccessible?

That he (like pretty much everyone else on the planet including other top jumpers) is physically unable to do it successfully in the context of a 4-minute skating program full of other jumps and non-jump elements and transitions? Yes, that is true. A competition context that requires fewer total elements would make the hardest elements more accessible, but still rare just because they're so hard.

Or that 4+4 is not allowed? True in the short program, but allowed in a free skate.

maybe it simply came from someone feeling a lack of balance and willing to redress it with a new rule, which rarely gives the expected results?

Yes, undoubtedly there will be some unexpected results with any major rule change.

And that considers how the new rules related to jumping affect both men and women, the best jumpers and also the generally good, average, and below-average jumpers (the latter of which fans rarely get to see).

 

[Mathman]

The Base Value of underrotated jumps is 80% of the full base value. Just saying.

That's not so terribly outrageous, though. What with GOE swing (say. +2 for fully rotated versus -2 for <. that brings it down brings in down to 60%, plus the under-rotation might cause a fall and will also be reflected in PCSs.

Base value alone, it's 80% for a < and about 40% for a <<. (For consistency it should be 0% for a <<< -- you flubbed so bad that you don't even deserve credit for the lower-revolution jump.)

 

[TallyT]

Well. it's ancient history now and memories fade. What I remember of figure skating discussions of that era there was a feeling among fans who considered themselves "purists" -- Dick Button was one such -- who felt that a fall should get 0 points because if you fell, you didn't really do the element. (This sentiment has not entirely disappeared, as some of the posts of this thread attest.)

While I do respect some of Mr Button's opinions, I venture to suggest that this one is rather more sweepingly soundbitey than seriously heartfelt, given he never to my knowledge suggested one of his own OGMs was dubiously won or demurred at the accolade for having two.

And he is the one who pointed out after Sochi that he fell.

 

[4everchan]

A Patrick stan and Yuzu stan beefing, it's like I've been transported back to 2015!

you are welcome . now we all feel ten years younger

 

[Mathman]

While I do respect some of Mr Button's opinions, I venture to suggest that this one is rather more sweepingly soundbitey than seriously heartfelt, given he never to my knowledge suggested one of his own OGMs was dubiously won or demurred at the accolade for having two.

He didn't turn down the 1952 OGM, but he did feel kind of bad about it.When he was asked point blank, which of your two Olympic experiences were you most proud of, he didn't have any hesitation in saying, "Oh, the first, of course. In the other one I fell."

 

[TallyT]

This has all gotten remarkably narrow (culminating in the claim that Malinin Will Save US Figure Skating. Funny that... wasn't that the exact same mantra just a few years ago with a different name?) and focusing on those few highest level champions. However, and I am sorry if I seem to be forever banging this drum, other skaters - the vast majority, who may never step onto a major podium, who are in the early groups or other competitions - matter too. Hell, matter more because without them the Designated Saviours of US Or Even World Skating can't make the podium either. Because there won't be one.

And look at pretty much every competition thread - we do enjoy them yes, but we go in expecting cactus quills and splatfests aplenty and are unusually (and disconcertingly) pleased when it's less than half the men menning in their race for quads. NA and other audiences tuning in for the Olympics and seeing the current messy state of play for the first time may not even make it to Malinin and Kagiyama, even if the streams like Peacock only show the last few groups. Because all those other things that make for brilliant skating/programs/watching in between the jumps and splats aren't much around to offset the splats and jumpityjumps with long dull leads.

I'm not saying lower standards to make the sport 'easier'. Quads have their place, a central and valued one. I am suggesting TPTB stop lowbarring the other aspects which audiences have loved for decades (people remember and ooooh at Kwan and Cohen's spirals way more than Browning and even Plushenko's quads; Yuzuru did a show program of just spins which got as much if not more attention and love worldwide than the entire 2025 worlds free skate) and try to make the whole competition - not just tiktok snatches of 'tricks' - a showcase.

 

[Mathman]

^ I quite agree with the spirit of the above post. If the ISU wants to attract and hold an audience for its product, then it will have to present something that people want to watch.

The devil, of course, is in the details.

 

[TallyT]

The devil, of course, is in the details.

That's why they are being paid the big bucks, to come up with details that work. T-current-PTB are not really earning their keep, are they?

 

[gkelly]

And, of course, "the people" consists of numerous different audiences who have different priorities.

You've got arts fans who enjoy figure skating for the beautiful musical movement (including beautifully done jumps but not messy/failed ones), sports fans who are all about the jumps and want to see obvious difficulty like extra revolutions rewarded and obvious errors like falls severely penalized, casual fans who like the human interest drama (including faces they recognize from the last Olympics 4 years earlier) and politics, serious fans who are more knowledgeable and like more than one of those things, as well as less obvious aspects of skating technique in some cases, but may have different preferences from each other (as seen in this thread).

And then, of course, the skaters themselves, who know which skills they like best to do and which they think are most worthy of being promoted.

Skaters and some serious fans care very much about jump technique such as takeoff edges and rotation, but casual fans usually just care whether the jump looks good to them in real time or not.

On-ice techniques such as steps and turns may have an even bigger difference since new fans may not realize that how you get from one end of the rink to the other, from one element to the next, is a big part of what matters. If they're used to sports where only getting the ball in the goal earns points and there are no points from how you get from one end of the field to the other does not earn points, it won't seem intuitive. Even for gymnastics or diving fans, how you climb and walk to the end of the diving board or how you run up to the vault are not part of the scoring, so understanding that how you skate between elements may not be something they'd consider important.

Etc.

With all these different audiences, how should the ISU choose which ones to prioritize?

 

[Mathman]

I am only one person, but for me I wish the sport would concentrate on what makes it different from other sports rather than on how it is the same.

Ice, ice, ice. I like gliding moves better than steps. Why? Because gliding is what you can do on ice. You can step on dry land.

Spins are more icy than jumps. You can spin on ice better than you can spin on land, whereas you can jump higher and farther on land than you can on ice.

I like ice dance. But the best part is using the ice to produce something unique, not just to do a land dance with the extra impediment of the dance floor being too slippery.

Well, that's just me. But if the ISU can't sell ice, then I am not optimistic about its ability to compete with other sports and with other entertainments for audience share. In the olden days ice skating was a popular pastime for children and for recreational and social skaters. That era has slipped away. Not enough people skate any more, and this translates into shrinking audience interest.

 

[gkelly]

Ice, ice, ice. I like gliding moves better than steps. Why? Because gliding is what you can do on ice. You can step on dry land.

How do you feel about turns?

I.e., do you prefer gliding on simple edges, in attractive/sometimes difficult positions, or do you also like complex edge work with transitions from one edge to another while maintaining the glide?

Spins are more icy than jumps. You can spin on ice better than you can spin on land, whereas you can jump higher and farther on land than you can on ice.

Well, yes, but you can't jump higher and farther AND rotate 3 or 4 times in the air at the same time on land. Unless you have some other equipment to facilitate the process.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes. That is something of an exaggeration, but sarcasm aside it is essentially correct. The tech panel determines what elements are performed, and the judges exercise their judgment on GOEs and PCSs, subject to ISU guidelines and mild oversight. This is the IJS. It was explained quite clearly back in 2003. Why are we still pretending to be gobsmacked by such a concept?

My point was that the judges’ shadiness will have even more of a magnified effect if we temper the amount of points skaters can get on base value of jumps.

I would love the OP to expand on “quads be limited to balance artistry”:

Is it:
A) limit the amount of points you get for quads or the number of quads you can do so that the artistic mark will have more credence

B) quads be limited to allocate a few extra seconds to artistry since triples tend to have shorter setups (not that there aren’t skaters doing them with transitions and little setup)

C) quads be limited to allow more artistically talented skaters… who can’t do quads consistently/are comparatively weaker jumpers… to place higher and “balance out” the field

 

[Magill]

Well, that's just me. But if the ISU can't sell ice, then I am not optimistic about its ability to compete with other sports and with other entertainments for audience share. In the olden days ice skating was a popular pastime for children and for recreational and social skaters. That era has slipped away. Not enough people skate any more, and this translates into shrinking audience interest.

As a mum, I do not agree. It might be true for US, this I do not know, but city rinks here are full of music, fun and people in winter, many kids have skates, or just rent them, and "going for a skate" is still a popular pastime here, both for kids and young adults. Still, somehow it does not translate much to watching, neither figure skating, nor speed skating. Figure skating used to be popular on TV but it is not anymore

 

[Magill]

And, of course, "the people" consists of numerous different audiences who have different priorities.

You've got arts fans who enjoy figure skating for the beautiful musical movement (including beautifully done jumps but not messy/failed ones), sports fans who are all about the jumps and want to see obvious difficulty like extra revolutions rewarded and obvious errors like falls severely penalized, casual fans who like the human interest drama (including faces they recognize from the last Olympics 4 years earlier) and politics, serious fans who are more knowledgeable and like more than one of those things, as well as less obvious aspects of skating technique in some cases, but may have different preferences from each other (as seen in this thread).

And then, of course, the skaters themselves, who know which skills they like best to do and which they think are most worthy of being promoted.

Skaters and some serious fans care very much about jump technique such as takeoff edges and rotation, but casual fans usually just care whether the jump looks good to them in real time or not.

On-ice techniques such as steps and turns may have an even bigger difference since new fans may not realize that how you get from one end of the rink to the other, from one element to the next, is a big part of what matters. If they're used to sports where only getting the ball in the goal earns points and there are no points from how you get from one end of the field to the other does not earn points, it won't seem intuitive. Even for gymnastics or diving fans, how you climb and walk to the end of the diving board or how you run up to the vault are not part of the scoring, so understanding that how you skate between elements may not be something they'd consider important.

Etc.

With all these different audiences, how should the ISU choose which ones to prioritize?

If you wanna sell things to the general public, you go where the general public goes.

There is a skater who was able to sell out competitions to crowds when competed and is still able to sell out Saitama Super Arena all by himself and they say he is more popular than everyone else together. Just study why instead of pretending you never heard of him or seeing him as a threat and trying to put him down to promote your own proteges.

I don't mean just cloning, of course, and it would be difficult anyway, but there is an obvious case for what the public at large is willing to buy and what it is not willing to buy exactly.

When the Beatles craze broke up in the 60s. the music industry did realize there was a huge market for this kind of music, and they started to invest money in similar groups creating - or rather assisting the creation of - what is known as rock music now. They did not say we do not like you (which was true), you are not one of us (which was true), so take your fans and go to hell, who cares anyway. No, they followed the public into this uncharted territory.

I think the problem with ISU is that it is a bunch of officials at a mercy of federations, and they are all way more invested in their own particular interests than in what is good for the sport at large. And unlike any business entity, they are not really accountable to anyone for the money earned or lost.

 

[gkelly]

And how could the ISU make more skaters, multiple skaters around the globe at the same time, who can offer what the skater you're thinking of offered to attract audiences during their most popular era of eligible competition?