Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry? | Page 11 | Golden Skate

Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

  • Yes

    Votes: 73 43.2%
  • No

    Votes: 96 56.8%

  • Total voters
    169
My point was that the judges’ shadiness will have even more of a magnified effect if we temper the amount of points skaters can get on base value of jumps.
I take a longer view of judges' shadiness.

At the 1927 World championships Sonja Henie (age 14) defeated 5-time and defending world champion Herma Szabo by a score of three judges to two. The judging panel consisted of 3 Norwegians, an Austrian and a German. Guess who voted for whom? Szabo retired on the spot in disgust. Henie went on to win the next nine world championships.

The ISU responded by passing a rule that from now on there would be only one judge per country. There! That will take care of the problem of shady judges once and for all, right?

In 2003 the ISU realized that the 1927 solution hadn't completely solved the problem after all. There were still shady judges -- can you believe it? The solution was to reduce the power of the shady judges and give it to a panel of unshady technical specialists. Problem solved.

Now, twenty years later, the hue and cry is, Oh those shady. biased, inconsistent, incompetent tech callers -- they are ruining the sport They need to be replaced by robots armed with high-tech measuring devices. Voila! No more shadiness, no more complaints by fans.

I would love the OP to expand on “quads be limited to balance artistry”:
I think the OP was intended as an invitation for GS members to give their opinions, not to offer her own. It worked! The thread has 200 posts so far and counting. :)
 
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That's why they [ISU office-holders]are being paid the big bucks...
Are they, though? Does the President of the ISU even receive a salary?

Here is the official financial statement (as required bt Swiss law) for 2024.


Page 14 lists their operating expenses. ISU executives, ISU council members, and so on receive very modest expense allowances for travel to meetings, etc. The ISU salaried staff comprises 37 employees -- office workers, lawyers, etc.
 
How do you feel about turns?

I.e., do you prefer gliding on simple edges, in attractive/sometimes difficult positions, or do you also like complex edge work with transitions from one edge to another while maintaining the glide?
I do like turns. I am handicapped by lack of expertise and by failing eyesight to appreciate the fine points, but yes, that kind of skating is very enjoyable to watch.

One of my favorie skating videos -- it seems to have vanished from You Tube now -- was of Ondrej Nepela returning to a hero's welcome in Bratislava after one of his world championships and thanking the fans who turned out to meet his train by putting on a demonstration of skating turns at the outdoor public rink adjacent the train station.

This mostly consisted of a long sequence, going round and round the rink, in -- I suppose, big three-turns? Maybe they were hearts for the onlookers. I found it very uplifting. :nod:
 
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Patrick was the first skater who combined the beautiful skating with the quads.
That's not true whatsoever. Yagudin and Plushenko were already doing it 12 years before him and then came Lambiel, with a level of artistry that Patrick was never able to achieve. People like Goebel and Joubert also had at least one program that displayed both quads and great choreo, and Takahashi in 2008 successfully competed multiple quads (not one of his best programs but still, it's Takahashi, he always brings some spice).
 
That's not true whatsoever. Yagudin and Plushenko were already doing it 12 years before him and then came Lambiel, with a level of artistry that Patrick was never able to achieve. People like Goebel and Joubert also had at least one program that displayed both quads and great choreo, and Takahashi in 2008 successfully competed multiple quads (not one of his best programs but still, it's Takahashi, he always brings some spice).
From all the guys you are mentioning, Yagudin and Lambiel (and well his 3axel was pretty much non-existing) are the only ones I would put in the same category. Plushenko, Goebel and Joubert didn't have great skating skills and Takahashi was not too consistent with his quads.

Anyway, it's Tracy Wilson who said that. So you can argue that with her :)
 
And how could the ISU make more skaters, multiple skaters around the globe at the same time, who can offer what the skater you're thinking of offered to attract audiences during their most popular era of eligible competition?
There's already lots of damage done, as few skaters have developed skills enabling them to express a program in a deeper way. That's not because of IJS, it's because of the return of "shady judging" as would say Mathman, which has been incentivising the wrong ways of skating. Yes there's a wow factor in saying this skater's just jumped a xytuple zw or there's a new World Record but when they watch, most don't find it interesting because they're searching something entertaining. Many of us are persuaded that Figure Skating is a niche sport, but it isn't really. Apart from team vs team sports like Soccer, which are "in another league", or Tennis (not even sure) or Formula 1, Figure Skating is really in the top. Videos from the Olympic Channel show that it's not only the skater we're thinking of, he's first by a tiny margin and the second video is of... Pair skaters. They're second and third, not very very far behind a 6 year older Summer Olympic video, the only more viewed than these skating programs. The team sports, Tennis and Formula 1 are not Olympic staples so they wouldn't be in these top Olympic Channel videos, but among other sports, Figure Skating IS popular. I suppose that to attract even more people, Figure Skating has to meet more expectations than real niche sports. In my opinion, it has to be a bewitching mix of athleticism and entertainment. There Figure Skating has a strong point because there are styles of skating to meet all tastes. But trying to force on people those chosen by ISU who have nothing to become popular whatever the narrative, repels more potential viewers than it attracts. I hope that you will excuse me for giving a name, but also, Ari Zakarian's "ideas" reek the 1980s used cars salesperson's methods. How would it work? And it's not only ISU. I don't know how it is at USFed, I don't know how things are going at French Fed (I hope, better than in Gymnastics) but there are a few leaks from JSF, it's a bit, "how to fail in a big way", "we're failing let's go on with the same methods to see if we may win"... I understand that the Kinoshita Group has tried some "you've failed now let's be more sensible" in 2023 but my impression is that they've been defeated. (I must also say that among their pets, Kaori Sakamoto is really good and Rio Tanaka is promising.)
Shows like Disney on Ice or Holiday on Ice make a little money, so there's some interest for skating. The same goes for Royal Caribbean Cruise Line who goes on building ships with bigger and bigger (still small) rinks and having popular shows there. These shows have neither a high level athleticism nor great inventiveness, just well tried entertainment recipes, and they give opportunities to skaters who have never gone very far in competition, but who have both animated and taken benefit from their federation's general coaching and competition settings.
Many say that the typical champions' shows don't sell anymore. I don't agree. I'd rather say, fake champions don't sell. I wouldn't assert that it means that the public can't be fooled, but this quad shows that it isn't. It's not only that they're not shown the best, it's that most of real innovation hasn't been hyped and has little succession among current skaters, and what has been hyped isn't deemed interesting. To be certain that there's a declining interest in this type of shows (each skater/team skates to one or two of their programs, with some group programs, without elaborate scenography; and the biggest ones have some guest musicians), would need to experience them with a promotion of the real best skaters rather than those "chosen", including the medals they deserve and why. Then only we could see which was the cause of the decline. (I must say that with the little I saw of Hyoen, I don't understand why attendance is so sparse.)
Then, there are Yuzuru Hanyu's shows, he's not only skating better by far, enabling him to translate his thoughts into skating, and a very charismatic person; he's a visionary genius as there are very few, able to write stories and to make shows of them, which attracts far more than people who know Figure Skating, which is an immense opportunity to Figure Skating; I believe that it is his aim, to make Figure Skating known, more than to make himself known, because Figure Skating is his great love, but his only power is to show himself. What's missing is synergy with the rest of Figure Skating world, rather than ostracism. Allowing (or encouraging) other skaters to declare themselves fans is a tiny progress on the previous prohibition (and request for hailing the pets) but (I think to his despair) when people who have seen and appreciated his shows give a try to Competitive Figure Skating, there's no articulation, there's rather a fault line, they don't see that the competitors of today may be great show people in the future and how, once again they're not shown the best, and overall, skaters aren't encouraged to improve because rules are ignored, yet I know from his own declarations over the years and from his acts that his aim is to invite people to love Figure Skating in general. Fortunately, he's not easily discouraged and the opportunities are still there.
 
There's already lots of damage done, as few skaters have developed skills enabling them to express a program in a deeper way.
That's not "damage" -- that's the nature of the sport. It has always been technical first -- whatever technical content was important at the time -- with artistry as a welcome extra.

It's a sport, not an art contest.

If you are among the section of the audience who enjoys the artistic aspect most, your favorite skaters would naturally be the ones who care about and put a lot of effort into developing artistic performances. But this has always been a minority of competitors. Those who do a good job with both technique and artistry have won the most medals and become the most beloved skaters in all eras.

That's not because of IJS, it's because of the return of "shady judging" as would say Mathman, which has been incentivising the wrong ways of skating.
What do you think is "right" and "wrong"? I think what you consider "right" is what you like best. Obviously, the same is true for all of us who have opinions about what direction we think the rules should emphasize.

Different fans, and many skaters and officials, have different opinions about what is most right to emphasize.

I'm not talking only about jumps.

The sport as sport is always going to emphasize technique, and many of the fundamental techniques that make skating skating are difficult for non-skaters to appreciate when watching on video.

Professional skating has always tended to emphasize entertainment value, and the ISU has been making changes over the decades to welcome aspects of show skating into the competitive arena. Flashy tricks, including big jumps, are definitely part of what audiences find entertaining, as well as costumes (not judged) and musical interpretation and beautiful body line and movement, etc.

But different participants and definitely different fans and casual viewers will have different opinions about which of those aspects are right or wrong to emphasize or even to include in an Olympic-track sport at all.
 
As for Ilia Malinin, I don't think that anyone is scheming at ways to hold him back.

Contrariwise, I don't think that anyone is expecting him to bring new fans to the sport or to increase its dwindling popularity. :(
Actually, why not? Isn't it something you'd expect from someone being pushed and promoted as the biggest star of the sport?
And if not, why promote him and not someone with a bigger selling potential?
And to make it clear, I don't mean scores right now, just PR efforts. You do not hire people to sell your product if you do not expect them to bring new customers, or at least keep those you have interested. What's the point? It's just wasting time and money.
 
Are they, though? Does the President of the ISU even receive a salary?

Here is the official financial statement (as required bt Swiss law) for 2024.


Page 14 lists their operating expenses. ISU executives, ISU council members, and so on receive very modest expense allowances for travel to meetings, etc. The ISU salaried staff comprises 37 employees -- office workers, lawyers, etc.
Honestly? I think it is a part of the problem.
They should be paid. And held accountable.
They would be much better motivated then.
 
Actually, why not? Isn't it something you'd expect from someone being pushed and promoted as the biggest star of the sport?
And if not, why promote him and not someone with a bigger selling potential?
I can only speak about figure skating in the U.S. If people expect a male figure skater to bring home the bacon, like Peggy Fleming, Janet Lynn, Dorothy Hamill. Kristi Yamaguchi, Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen did in days of yore, I think that that they will be disappointed in their expectations.

As for people poring money into the promotion of Ilia Malinin -- no, they are not. Lebron James. yes.
 
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And how could the ISU make more skaters, multiple skaters around the globe at the same time, who can offer what the skater you're thinking of offered to attract audiences during their most popular era of eligible competition?
TBH, it was not the question you have asked, not the one I was answering to.
You have asked how should ISU know what the public wants to see when there are so many different sectors of the public etc.?
So this is what I was answering to. Surely, not from polls on GS :nod: These may be fun but are not representative of anything, not even of this forum, with 120 people taking part in a poll where the forum has thousands of members. And of course ISU should be interested in reaching a bigger part of the public than the most active posters on one of many fan forums.

I have to admit I am getting sort of bored with this question being asked all over again while the general public at large made their answer clear and loud. They made it clear what they want to see in big numbers, and not in polls but with their credit cards, attendance and viewership. These are the real life indicators, and TBH I cannot stop being puzzled why they are not being taken into account, and the question is just being asked all over again. And it makes me doubt the sincerity with which the question is being asked, not by you, nothing personal, but by ISU itself. As they say, the answer is written on the wall, why pretend it is not there and not known? Do they really want to know?

Now, the sport had a super superstar, a genius blessed also with an amazing selling power. That's a rare case, usually considered a blessing. In any healthy and well-managed organization, this phenomenon would have been studied and analyzed by people way more knowledgeable than me, to define the factors that make for this success. Of course, you cannot multiply a genius, but you can learn from him. And if you don't, you have only yourself to blame. The result should have been a development strategy and an exit strategy. The latter - to have a plan how to keep in the sport all those fans who came for the star, those he has already brought. In any well managed organization, these things are discussed and planned. The former - how to create an environment that would stimulate the development of similar talent - by shaping the scoring system, the program requirements etc, to stimulate and reward the development of necessary skills and programs.

What has ISU done? It had alienated its biggest star and his fandom, it made them feel unneeded and unwelcome, shutting off any possibility of his post-competitive inclusion in the competitive sport's events, it made a total turn starting to reward completely different set of skills, opposite, one might say, to the one which was bringing money and viewership, and in a couple of years made it a completely different sport, much less attractive for the general public, it seems. Now, why, is the real question. For it is just so illogical, unreasonable, and plainly stupid, that it is so hard to believe it was done for no reason at all.
 
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Doesn't this just support my point?

Nope.

Jin was equal to Hanyu and Ono in TES base value but way, way down in PCSs.

Big jumps, weak components, as I said.

And who was under Jin in PCS? Nathan. That makes Nathan your new whipping boy, I guess. By the way, Jin got 80 PCS at 4CC 2016 and 86 at 2017 Worlds. I might consider 80 lower PCS but not 86. In terms of PCS, that's a big difference in one skater. At 2025 Worlds Shaidorov's FS PCS was 82.53. Should we now call Shaidorov a whipping boy? The point of all this is to reiterate: no, he who has the most quads doesn't automatically win. Whipping boys have nothing to do with it.
 
That's not true whatsoever. Yagudin and Plushenko were already doing it 12 years before him and then came Lambiel, with a level of artistry that Patrick was never able to achieve. People like Goebel and Joubert also had at least one program that displayed both quads and great choreo, and Takahashi in 2008 successfully competed multiple quads (not one of his best programs but still, it's Takahashi, he always brings some spice).
You lost me at Plushenko offering beautiful skating with quads.
 
What has ISU done? It had alienated its biggest star and his fandom, it made them feel unneeded and unwelcome, shutting off any possibility of his post-competitive inclusion in the competitive sport's events, it made a total turn starting to reward completely different set of skills, opposite, one might say, to the one which was bringing money and viewership, and in a couple of years made it a completely different sport, much less attractive for the general public, it seems. Now, why, is the real question. For it is just so illogical, unreasonable, and plainly stupid, that it is so hard to believe it was done for no reason at all.
I ask this in completely good faith, because I don't understand.

What has the ISU done to alienate Hanyu? Why do you feel unwelcome? We disagree on some things, but I disagree with many on some ponit or another, and I like you very much. I know I'm not the ISU... but I'm not nobody either.

I don't get the "shutting off (Hanyu's) inclusion in competitive sports events." I think the ISU would be thrilled to death in Hanyu returned. I mean the doors have been thrown wide open to a slew of lesser returning skaters in this Olympic season.

Aren't the rules now essentially the same as when Hanyu was competing? I don't understand "rewarding a different set of skills." It's basically the same code of points, at least I think so.
 
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