Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

[DizzyFrenchie]

He's getting there and I think may well overtake as an all-rounder in the next quad. Personally I like him more, though that may be their respective on-ice personalities (I do think that is something that affects all of us).

I think that Shun Sato, on a more complex choreography, has more precise and purposeful moves, although Yuma Kagiyama's recent progresses impressed me, I'm expecting further progression from both in the next quad. Also, Yuma Kagiyama's Step Sequence is relatively slow but not laboured — well, he has great Skating Skills and very good balance. Being French, I'm a bit of the line of the Paris Opera Ballet where the prescription is, you can ask the orchestra to play slowlier if it's the mean to have the correct moves. Sometimes they abuse of it but it's another story. Sorry for being out of topic, as Short Programs are really not well, in-topic, having a maximum of two Quadruple jumps in nearly three minutes. Several skaters manage to still deserve high Components and that's the case here.

 

[Mathman]

There is such a thing as etiquette. Cheering for your team when they do well is standard, but cheering when people mess up or fail isn't exactly classy...

There are unclassy sports fans among us.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Nathan Chen's 2018 performance was pedestrian and massively OVERscored on PCS. 87 for a program with almost no expression, no real connective theme, very little musical interpretation, lacking body extension. Just a quad hunt with a few little bits of choreo thrown in, which he didn't put much effort into executing.



Plushenko's best artistic program was 2004, when Yagudin was no longer competing. Plushenko was more focused on pushing the tech when Yagudin was around, doing the first 3Axel-half loop-3Flip ever and trying the Quad-Triple+Triple Loop (and forcing Yagudin to do a Quad-Triple-2Loop combo, something that has sadly become lost with IJS scoring, since difficult combos like that are worth nothing).

Plushenko was the first person to get level 4 on footwork, back when the rules actually cared about being able to display fast footwork and combining steps and turns together. The way footwork should be. Those are skating skills, as is his edge security.

His 2014 Sochi LP was one of the best performances of the competition. There was actual attention paid to the build of the music, the usage of the body to create expressive moments, facial expression and connection with the audience. The way he was able to utilize his body movement showed FAR more sophistication and ability as a dancer than what Chen was doing, or really what Chen has ever done. Look at little details like the arm position on Plushenko's 3Lutz landing, how open and confident it is, and the flick of the wrists afterward. People aren't presenting jump landings anymore like they should be. Look at Nathan Chen's 2018 performance for example - his head is down after literally every jump landing and the arms are loose, with no tension and no refinement of body line. He never sells the landings, there's no sense of "I just did something great" being projected, and no sense of the jumps being part of the performance.

Chen is a skater who doesn't need to flourish every jump - his skating style is predicated on sophistication and control and drawing the crowd into his skating, not flashiness and contrived drama (it would look ridiculous if Chen did Plushenko's preening and shushes and winks and hip thrusts - especially in a piece like Mao's Last Dancer). You're also using a performance from Chen's second year as a senior as demonstrative of his artistic capability his entire senior career. To say that his Sochi 2014 LP was better sophistication/dance ability that "what Chen has ever done" (his 2022 Olympic SP is technically harder and better performed/executed/interpreted than anything Plushenko did in his career) is just ridiculously blatant bias against Chen, and completely unsubstantiated if you look at Chen's performances and artistic growth after the 2018 Olympics (including "selling the landings", as that's so important to you). Frankly, such a statement delegitimises anything you have to say about/against Chen because it's such a wildly absurd assertion.

Through his career, Plushenko projected/played to the crowd well, he was able to jump incredibly consistently (and was lucky that for most of his career, especially the tail end, his competitors weren't able to - or if they were, they played it safe), and he is a showman (once he's completed the jumps, of course). Can't really fault him though for others messing up - but if they didn't, maybe he would have pushed his artistic ability harder. But you're out to lunch if you think that LP was some paradigm of sophistication and "dance ability" (LOL, unless hip thrusts are your thing) or that completes his movements (see the end of his 2006 OGM FS, or even his Sochi LP he didn't even really finish his ending pose before fist pumping).

And LOL such a strawman to say his Sochi team LP was "one of the best performances of the competition" — as if that competition in general wasn't wholly lacklustre. He skated with very few transitions from element to element (zero transitions before or coming out of jumps other than the typical lutz choctaw entry - remember his classic "I don't do transitions"), tons of two foot skating, and had several standstill/long two foot glide "breathers"/vamping for the judges and audience. Granted, his spins in that LP were some of his best ever. Plushenko's 2014 LP StSq was actually one of the few highlights that showed some skating skills — but it still didn't show the range of body movement, variety of turns/directions, extension and depth of edges that Chen's 2018 StSq LP showed if you bother to compare them)... but he didn't demonstrate any of that interpretation/finesse outside of it once it got back to focusing on the jumps. Once he'd completed the jumps -- 1of which was a wonky 3-jump combo and 2 of which were a doubled 3S and a doubled 3L (hah "one of the best".... that tells you how good the Sochi competition was) -- he did his usual over-correcting for no interpretation for majority of the program, and goes super willd/OTT in the final step sequence (though I suppose for Tosca, going extreme OTT emotional works thematically). Then there was the gross home cooking - judges gave him 9.5's/9.75's for performance/execution, 9.5s for choreography ... two judges gave him 9/9.25 for transitions (LMAO). Reynolds and Machida should have both beat him in that segment and were just unlucky to be just the Canadian/Japanese #2s, and Plushenko to be on home ice with home cooked scores.

Kudos and credit to him for delivering in the SP and LP but there was practically zero pressure on him as it was an easy team gold. He even could have bronzed in the individual event because of how abysmal that competition was, but if folks had performed to their potential, he would have definitely been off the podium and his team LP would not have been one of the best performances of Sochi. I wonder if he had known that the individual competition would be so bad and that he'd had a legit chance at individually medaling, if he would have pushed through that quite unusual, unfortunate and untimely injury he just happened to sustain right before he was to skate in the individual SP. Guess not everything goes exactly according to plan, eh.

 

[yfan1]

His 2014 Sochi LP was one of the best performances of the competition. There was actual attention paid to the build of the music, the usage of the body to create expressive moments, facial expression and connection with the audience.

This is what I feel. Of all the performances by the individual men at Sochi... this was the only one that left an impression on me.

So, e.g., for an element called 3Lz+3Lo<, judges are expected to subtract -2 to -3 from whatever they came up with for positive bullets (or non-called errors), and they can't start from higher than +3.

My argument OTOH is simply that guidelines are guidelines and judges can ignore them when they want.

Not that they are "expected" to do anything.

If anyone has which element supposedly received +3 and -1 from the same judging panel, then by all means, I'd love to see it and discuss it.

Chen is a skater who doesn't need to flourish every jump - his skating style is predicated on sophistication and control and drawing the crowd into his skating,

Control of body line on landings is... control.

 

[Mathman]

We're a tough audience. We like figure skating but we don't like Evgeny Plushenko. We like figure skating but we don't like Patrick Chan. We like figure skating but we don't like Yuzuru Hanyu. We like figure skating but we don't like Nathan Chen.

What time is the Ladies SP at the Grand Prix Final? I don't like any of them.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Chen is a skater who doesn't need to flourish every jump - his skating style is predicated on sophistication and control and drawing the crowd into his skating, not flashiness and contrived drama

There is nothing sophisticated about most of Nathan Chen's jump landings, and presenting a landing is not merely about some big "flourish". It's about posture and intent and expression. Michelle Kwan rarely did anything flashy on a landing but notice how her head was constantly UP, eyes INVOLVED, shoulders OPEN, arms ELONGATED, body position ENGAGED, hands FLUID AND POINTED. These are some of the components of presentation that you don't seem to understand.

Almost every jump Nathan did, including later in his career, there is no change in facial expression afterward, almost no change in body tension or form, no creation of a purposeful shape or moment, rarely a held edge.

To say that his Sochi 2014 LP was better sophistication/dance ability that "what Chen has ever done" (his 2022 Olympic SP is technically harder and better performed/executed/interpreted than anything Plushenko did in his career) is just ridiculously blatant bias against Chen, and completely unsubstantiated

"Technically harder" says nothing about presentation. Throughout your entire post you've said zero about the actual artistic quality of Chen. How does his form express something? How does it interpret the music?

He did not at all give a superior performance. His arms are blocky, his body is never elongated, there isn't tension. Lack of facial expression, lack of intent with the music. It's clear from the very first skidding movement 2 seconds into the program, where he tries to raise one arm and hold the other on his hip: the free arm doesn't fully extend and hold the position, his other shoulder is hunched, with the hand lazily drooping in front of him with no engagement of the fingers, no clear shape being created. It's painfully obvious that this is how the choreographer told him to try and hold his arms, but he doesn't actually care much or understand the intent of why he should move that way, he's just going through the motions. He isn't trying to reveal his soul or create something distinct or present to the audience, he isn't doing these movements because the music is alive inside of him and making him feel this is how he should move.

Dozens of examples like that throughout the program. Like a couple seconds afterward where the choreographer told him to put his hand behind his head and then stroke the side of his face. There's no release of the head, no sense of freedom to the hand movement, no sensuality. Throughout the choreo almost any time he tries to hold his arms up, there's not much fluidity and he's stiffly bent at the elbow. And when tries to do a big flourish of the arms after the 3A it's just rushed, with those droopy arms staying closed at the shoulder, the hands not extending. Then after the jump combo when he does finally decide to show facial expression, it has little to do with the music, nor does the wild knee slide afterward. The wistfulness of the music is ignored in favor of superficial flash.

you're out to lunch if you think that LP was some paradigm of sophistication and "dance ability" (LOL, unless hip thrusts are your thing)

There were far more than hip thrusts to Plushenko's program (the program doesn't even HAVE a typical "hip thrust"), although that's certainly a form of movement requiring commitment and charisma, and he is indeed able to pull it off, showcasing performance quality. In this program specifically, the way he uses his hips and entire body and face after the 3Axel combo is a very good showcase of dance quality and a better involvement of the body parts than anything Nathan Chen has shown himself capable of.

What really showcases Plushenko as the superior dancer is the fluidity of the arms, the movement through the shoulders, the extension all the way through the hands, the way he is using every finger purposefully. Look at how he is holding his hands at the end of the first spin, the fingers stretched out AND pointing in different positions, creating a distinct shape, and the way there is both tension and softness at the wrists. Then look at his arms and hands partway through the step sequence when he comes to a halt, how the fingers are now purposefully held together to create a distinct shape, the softness and controlled rhythm of the undulating arms, the way he looks up and directly engages with the crowd after first looking down and sideways. There is an idea and substantiative emotion being conveyed, exactly in according to what the music is doing. It's running through him and he is performing it, interpreting it. He is in the moment.

His facial engagement and projection and attention to the music throughout, the uprightness of his back, the way he holds his head, the usage of arms and hands, rhythm, the purposeful creation of shapes and emotion, the transitions between body positions - Plushenko is better at all of these things.

Frankly, such a statement delegitimises anything you have to say

Indeed, you are not qualified to judge artistry based on your posts.

 

[yfan1]

We're a tough audience. We like figure skating but we don't like Evgeny Plushenko. We like figure skating but we don't like Patrick Chan. We like figure skating but we don't like Yuzuru Hanyu. We like figure skating but we don't like Nathan Chen.

"We don't like the fans but we like figure skating" as was the discussion happening earlier...

... Ironic, if I may say.

 

[yfan1]

There is nothing sophisticated about most of Nathan Chen's jump landings,

Ignoring much of what the "artistry" conversation here is - I never thought his landings were technically correct. They always used to grind into the ice, and the free leg used to swerve - a rather obvious sign that he lacked control, and rotation wasn't fully completed in the air.

People used to point out Hanyu, Jin, and other jumpers "also" did it - well they still knew how to do proper landings when they were focused. I never got that out of Chen. Those others also knew how to jump high and far - which is another thing that makes landings harder. Chen got average height on his jumps.

Oh while I'm at it. People are wetting themselves over Kagiyama's landings. Well, look at how he takes off. He factually needs to be doing less work in the air, apply less force, because quite a lot of rotation is missing.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

There is nothing sophisticated about most of Nathan Chen's jump landings, and presenting a landing is not merely about some big "flourish". It's about posture and intent and expression. Michelle Kwan rarely did anything flashy on a landing but notice how her head was constantly UP, eyes INVOLVED, shoulders OPEN, arms ELONGATED, body position ENGAGED, hands FLUID AND POINTED. These are some of the components of presentation that you don't seem to understand.

Almost every jump Nathan did, including later in his career, there is no change in facial expression afterward, almost no change in body tension or form, no creation of a purposeful shape or moment, rarely a held edge.


"Technically harder" says nothing about presentation. Throughout your entire post you've said zero about the actual artistic quality of Chen. How does his form express something? How does it interpret the music?

He did not at all give a superior performance. His arms are blocky, his body is never elongated, there isn't tension. Lack of facial expression, lack of intent with the music. It's clear from the very first skidding movement 2 seconds into the program, where he tries to raise one arm and hold the other on his hip: the free arm doesn't fully extend and hold the position, his other shoulder is hunched, with the hand lazily drooping in front of him with no engagement of the fingers, no clear shape being created. It's painfully obvious that this is how the choreographer told him to try and hold his arms, but he doesn't actually care much or understand the intent of why he should move that way, he's just going through the motions. He isn't trying to reveal his soul or create something distinct or present to the audience, he isn't doing these movements because the music is alive inside of him and making him feel this is how he should move.

Dozens of examples like that throughout the program. Like a couple seconds afterward where the choreographer told him to put his hand behind his head and then stroke the side of his face. There's no release of the head, no sense of freedom to the hand movement, no sensuality. Throughout the choreo almost any time he tries to hold his arms up, there's not much fluidity and he's stiffly bent at the elbow. And when tries to do a big flourish of the arms after the 3A it's just rushed, with those droopy arms staying closed at the shoulder, the hands not extending. Then after the jump combo when he does finally decide to show facial expression, it has little to do with the music, nor does the wild knee slide afterward. The wistfulness of the music is ignored in favor of superficial flash.


There were far more than hip thrusts to Plushenko's program (the program doesn't even HAVE a typical "hip thrust"), although that's certainly a form of movement requiring commitment and charisma, and he is indeed able to pull it off, showcasing performance quality. In this program specifically, the way he uses his hips and entire body and face after the 3Axel combo is a very good showcase of dance quality and a better involvement of the body parts than anything Nathan Chen has shown himself capable of.

What really showcases Plushenko as the superior dancer is the fluidity of the arms, the movement through the shoulders, the extension all the way through the hands, the way he is using every finger purposefully. Look at how he is holding his hands at the end of the first spin, the fingers stretched out AND pointing in different positions, creating a distinct shape, and the way there is both tension and softness at the wrists. Then look at his arms and hands partway through the step sequence when he comes to a halt, how the fingers are now purposefully held together to create a distinct shape, the softness and controlled rhythm of the undulating arms, the way he looks up and directly engages with the crowd after first looking down and sideways. There is an idea and substantiative emotion being conveyed, exactly in according to what the music is doing. It's running through him and he is performing it, interpreting it. He is in the moment.

His facial engagement and projection and attention to the music throughout, the uprightness of his back, the way he holds his head, the usage of arms and hands, rhythm, the purposeful creation of shapes and emotion, the transitions between body positions - Plushenko is better at all of these things.


Indeed, you are not qualified to judge artistry based on your posts.

LOL I guess we'll agree to disagree. You can keep Plushenko as your paradigm (and your statements like "It's not like he had his typical hip thrust!" LMAO). And while you're slamming Chen's program start as not having purpose/shape/soul, etc. - I'd like to remind you that THIS was the start of Plushenko's LP that you're gagging over.

But, it's hella interesting though the double standard here.

In the 2014 Sochi Olympics there were 2 certain Russian skaters of note: who each had an LP that placed 1st in their respective segments... each LP having average choreography and average/almost no transitions compared to others in the field.... who both felt like including campy, crowd-pandering movements (waving/arm pumping/shushing/winking), who both had obvious jump errors that still received +GOE (and each of them having a 3-jump series with higher-than-deserved GOE)... who both received massive PCS scores in the mid/high 9's... while in both cases holding down the PCS and GOEs of the next 2 competitors placed behind them who should (and, if not in Russia, likely would) have both beaten said Russians in that LP segment.

Perplexingly, one of those skaters' LPs was broken down in an inconsequential, whiny letter of complaint sent to the ISU which nobody paid attention to and was ultimately just a waste of time and breath. And yet the other skater's LP was declared as "one of the best performances of Sochi" and apparently a poster program of sophistication and dance movements.

 

[yfan1]

Full levels are not awarded with rep. It they were, you wouldn't see Ilia or Grassl with level 3's in any of their programs. There are plenty to see.

Yeah... Go look at some of those Sochi calls on step sequences. And multiple others, over the years.

Using the tired line: "doing X in singles will turn it into ID" has worn itself out and needs to be put out to pasture.

I neither know nor care about how "tired" this line might be on this website or elsewhere... but if you feel that a move that will inherently increase subjectivity in scoring - for instance by increasing base value of an element that has so many minutiae, that they cannot always be observed properly by the TP, and even then there's an inherent subjectivity to the clarity of turns and difficulty of the choreography being performed when it comes to scoring GOE - and that none of this will ever be affected by anyone's reputation - then I have a bridge to sell to you.

Increasing the weighting of a highly subjective element is exactly making it like Ice Dance - especially when the supporters of that move offer no reason whatsoever as to why it has to happen at all in singles skating, when no one argues about lack of jumps in ID. Or do people here somehow randomly expect athletes to possess all the energy in the world where they can do high jump content AND still skate like ice dancers? Patrick Chan is brought up like some sort of God on here - well go look at how many times he used to splat.

In that choice, mine is clear. I don't care enough about every turn being done with exactly the most outward performance, most difficult choreography, deepest edges - in a discipline where that's not been the point for a while now. You threw figures out, and skaters started having enough time and money to practice greater difficulty and better choreography. That was progress, at least in my mind.

 

[Mathman]

I neither know nor care about how "tired" this line might be on this website or elsewhere... but if you feel that a move that will inherently increase subjectivity in scoring - for instance by increasing base value of an element that has so many minutiae, that they cannot always be observed properly by the TP, and even then there's an inherent subjectivity to the clarity of turns and difficulty of the choreography being performed when it comes to scoring GOE - and that none of this will ever be affected by anyone's reputation - then I have a bridge to sell to you.

The opposite point of view is, yes, figure skating, like any judged activity, has some subjectivity to it.

And... ?

I think it is legitimate for a fan to take the position, what do I care how many revolutions someone rotates in the air? On the other hand, all that blade work -- that's cool. If only an expert is qualified to make a judgment on details that I, as a fan, can't keep up with, then, yeah, we need expert technical specialists and experienced and unbiased judges to officiate and not just put it up to a fan vote.

I'm OK with that. As David Pelletier famously put it back in the day, "If I wanted to be evaluated by a stopwatch I'd be going downhill on skis."

 

[yfan1]

The opposite point of view is, yes, figure skating, like any judged activity, has some subjectivity to it.

"Some" - fine.

"Let's increase the value of a subjective element and let the judges have an even more overblown effect on the results" - not so fine.

I think it is legitimate for a fan to take the position, what do I care how many revolutions someone rotates in the air? On the other hand, all that blade work -- that's cool.

There's a perfect discipline for that.

This is what I mean - there's already a discipline where people can watch what they seemingly want to watch. You cannot demand everything from singles skaters, and it's not like you're demanding Ice Dance to progress one way or the other?

Even with ice dance, see how skating has changed even around after Vancouver 2010, and most especially after Sochi. The ID teams used to build their skating more on power, quickness of feet. Then it changed quite drastically to the style we see now, where every edge has such an outsized weight on scores and placements (not that I believe any of it matters in that discipline) - and that's so limiting stylistically to boot.

Why demand more subjectivity in singles (and Pairs)? And for that matter, why limit skating so specifically to one style? Does anyone want to go back to the figures era, or feel we were getting more artistically satisfying programs back then than what Michelle Kwan used to skate? Chen Lu? Kim and Asada? Shen/Zhao or Sui/Han?

Keep in mind that basic skating is still an athletic skill that requires focus. It's not at all that someone with fantastic basic skating is an amazing performer or is doing amazing choreography from an artistic perspective. I'd actually claim the opposite - the carriage, placement of core, and hips tends to be rather limiting from a dance perspective - it makes you lack versatility, and spending so much energy into pressing down those edges, inherently means you're focusing there, and you can't end up projecting to the audience to the fullest extent.

 

[Mathman]

... it's not like you're demanding Ice Dance to progress one way or the other?

...Why demand more subjectivity?

Me? Demand?

Oh, no! Different perspectives, different likes and dislikes. It's all good.

 

[gkelly]

Increasing the weighting of a highly subjective element is exactly making it like Ice Dance

Well, increasing the weighting of a subjective element in singles skating does increase the subjectivity of the scoring, no argument there.

If by "like Ice Dance" you mean "the judges' judgment determines results more than the difficulty of the elements performed," then yes, that can happen. And if you mean that judges can rely on their biases more than their expert judgment when scoring those subjective elements, then yes, that can happen too. But probably not as often as fans with their own biases and less expertise assume.

On the other hand, if by "like Ice Dance" you mean "all about skating skills and musical interpretation and not much else counts," then no.
If the singles discipline is supposed to include a balanced program blending skating skills and artistry (to use a handy word to some up everything covered in the current Composition and Presentation components) AND jumps and spins and steps and turns and other skating moves, then there should be a good balance of all those things.

Right now the balance seems weighted too heavily toward jumps and especially toward the number of rotations in the air. No one is suggesting that singles skaters should no longer do jumps or that they shouldn't challenge themselves and each other with the maximum difficulty the human body is capable of with today's technique. Just that there can be better ways to balance the importance of on-ice skills with the current overimportance (IMO) of above-the-ice skills.

- especially when the supporters of that move offer no reason whatsoever as to why it has to happen at all in singles skating, when no one argues about lack of jumps in ID.

My argument is that, first and foremost, all figure skating contests are rooted in the techniques of figure skating -- controlling the glide of blades on edges and all the many different ways of transitioning from one edge to another.

Different disciplines have developed other skills that are included along with those fundamental skating skills. In singles skating, jumps and spins have progressed in difficulty and importance throughout the sport's history across the 20th century and into the 21st.

But that doesn't mean that the difficulty and importance of the skating skills need to REGRESS in difficulty and importance to allow for the progress in other aspects of the discipline. There is room for progress in all areas.

Or do people here somehow randomly expect athletes to possess all the energy in the world where they can do high jump content AND still skate like ice dancers?

They can skate like singles skaters (i.e., without partners, and often without focusing on rhythmic music, while executing jumps and spins along with their skating skills) and still maintain excellence in fundamental skating ability.

If fundamental skating ability no longer counts, then it's not really the same sport any more.

You threw figures out, and skaters started having enough time and money to practice greater difficulty and better choreography. That was progress, at least in my mind.

Well, around the time figures were eliminated it also became more common for figure skaters to hire professional skating choreographers rather than just putting their programs together themselves along with their coaches. So -- at least for those who bothered to invest in expert choreography -- we did start seeing more coherent programs.

But other skaters, or some of the same skaters, also started focusing on adding more rotations in the air. Two or three different triples was no longer enough for women to win medals. Triple axels, triple-triple combinations, and soon at least one quad soon became necessary for men to do so. And often the result was emptier programs. Even for skaters who were good at interpreting music and enjoyable to watch for that reason (e.g., Oksana Baiul, Nicole Bobek at her best).

Kurt Browning at his peak could deliver difficult jumps along with complex, highly musical choreography. And he did win two world titles with school figures, so he wasn't bad at those either. But his best choreography probably came after his jump content started to decline. E.g., he may have won 1991 Worlds on the strength of jump content at least as much as the transitional skating content, but by 1993 it was the program and the on-ice content the prevailed over others' jumps.

Most of the medal-winning programs in the decade that followed were much less complex and less "artistic" in my opinion. But soon there were more quads.

My favorite programs in all eras are those in which there are interesting things happening on the ice. Transitional moves, step sequences, musical interpretation while those things are happening and not just while standing/dancing in place or doing simple stroking to get to the next element.

I can give examples from all of the last 4 decades.

I can also give examples of boring programs from all decades.

And programs that were impressive because of clean jumps and musicality/charisma, and strong simple stroking, but didn't really have much interesting going on with the blades. I don't want that to be the best the 2020s have to offer because the focus is on what happens in the air.

 

[Blades of Passion]

And while you're slamming Chen's program start as not having purpose/shape/soul, etc. - I'd like to remind you that THIS was the start of Plushenko's LP that you're gagging over.

The start of his program is a classic "calm before the storm". There doesn't need to be much happening, the entire point is stillness before something exciting. Dramatic buildup. He successfully delivers something exciting at the end of the build up with a great quad where he lands with his head up, eyes engaged, strong body line, and held edge. Which is exactly what Nathan Chen fails to do on his jumps.

Plushenko's program of course has flaws, but he was one of the few men in 2014 who was actually trying to perform and follow the music and maintain good lines. Almost everyone else at that point was infected by the CoP and no longer caring much about real performance quality and personal expression and musical interpretation, instead chasing after the superficial formula of what they thought would get points.

As for your other misguided rambling, where in Sochi did Plushenko receive Level 4 on his footwork when it was only Level 3, or receive full credit for a 3Lutz+3Toe when what he actually performed was a 3Flutz + 3Toe< ? Oh right, those things didn't happen (and are irrelevant to discussions about artistry anyway), unlike with Sotnikova, where the judging panel blatantly cheated and gave her higher levels than deserved, while simultaneously suppressing the footwork sequence level of Yu-Na Kim. Many changes have been made exactly because of what happened there and the work I did to call it out, along with the general discontentment many were feeling (and continue to feel) about the bad direction figure skating was going, but very bizarre how you keep sticking your head in the sand.

 

[Arigato]

Go look at some of those Sochi calls on step sequences.

I did. You're wrong again. If nothing else, you're consistent. Several skaters did not receive level 4s - including Javi Fernandez and Yuzuru Hanyu. Full levels are not just handed out like candy and they never have been. Hell, they just gave Sakamoto a level 3 on her step sequence at the GPF. But then you may not even know that, given your track record so far.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The start of his program is a classic "calm before the storm". There doesn't need to be much happening, the entire point is stillness before something exciting. Dramatic buildup. He successfully delivers something exciting at the end of the build up with a great quad where he lands with his head up, eyes engaged, strong body line, and held edge. Which is exactly what Nathan Chen fails to do on his jumps.

Plushenko's program of course has flaws, but he was one of the few men in 2014 who was actually trying to perform and follow the music and maintain good lines. Almost everyone else at that point was infected by the CoP and no longer caring much about real performance quality and personal expression and musical interpretation, instead chasing after the superficial formula of what they thought would get points.

As for your other misguided rambling, where in Sochi did Plushenko receive Level 4 on his footwork when it was only Level 3, or receive full credit for a 3Lutz+3Toe when what he actually performed was a 3Flutz + 3Toe< ? Oh right, those things didn't happen (and are irrelevant to discussions about artistry anyway), unlike with Sotnikova, where the judging panel blatantly cheated and gave her higher levels than deserved, while simultaneously suppressing the footwork sequence level of Yu-Na Kim. Many changes have been made exactly because of what happened there and the work I did to call it out, along with the general discontentment many were feeling (and continue to feel) about the bad direction figure skating was going, but very bizarre how you keep sticking your head in the sand.

Lol a true pioneer of changes to the system. Your contributions to figure skating are certainly prevalent documented and remembered to the end of time.

Lmao at calm before the storm? Buildup? He literally does nothing going into his first jump except stroke and build speed and you try to turn it into something deliberate and positive. The start of the program gives zero indication of theme, shapes, soul, intent or whatever you say Chen is lacking in his start to his program. You’ve also said that creating shapes stuff when Lambiel had a literal standstill in his program. Plu hip thrusts and you call it charisma. Plu could crawl on the ice and you’d find a way to spin it into something positive. WOW I never realized how much of a Plu stan are you are.

It’s so intriguing … I still can’t quite pinpoint what male skaters like Chen or Chan have in common that so very oddly puts you off from them, compared to male skaters you extol like Lambiel or Plushenko or Brown. What could it be?!

 

[TallyT]

This is going to be a really really cranky Olympic year folks.............

 

[Mathman]

Lol a true pioneer of changes to the system. Your contributions to figure skating are certainly prevalent documented....

Strange as it seems, our stalwart if irascible BoP actually has had serious communications with the ISU Ttechnical Committee about scoring rules and was even mentioned (by his real name) by Alexander Lakernik, the chairman of that committee at the time.

Not that I am taking sides in the debate as to whether Plushenko was an exceptional artist or not.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Strange as it seems, our stalwart if irascible BoP actually has had serious communications with the ISU Ttechnical Committee about scoring rules and was even mentioned (by his real name) by Alexander Lakernik, the chairman of that committee at the time.

Not that I am taking sides in the debate as to whether Plushenko was an exceptional artist or not.

Lol, has had serious conversations according to whom… BOP?

Hah what was said in these serious communications with Lakernik that most definitely undoubtedly happened?

I imagine it went something like: “Oh, That Guy (TG)? Wasn’t he the one who took the time out of his incredibly busy life to whine to me and 30+ other ISU folks about a competition that wasn’t the result he hoped for? Wasn’t TG the one who boasted to news outlets that he had taken our ISU seminar in an attempt to legitimize himself - but then didn’t ACTUALLY follow through with any ISU certification… and then, out of spite, TG badmouthed these very ISU seminars, and tried to delegitimize our ISU judges who actually worked hard to complete their certification …… and then didn’t TG have the unmitigated gall to ask the same ISU - whom he slammed - to hear him out and his long winded Sochi grievances? Lol… TG, who?! We don’t know her.”