Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry? | Page 19 | Golden Skate

Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

  • Yes

    Votes: 73 43.2%
  • No

    Votes: 96 56.8%

  • Total voters
    169
Lol, has had serious conversations according to whom… BOP? 😂

Hah what was said in these serious communications with Lakernik that most definitely undoubtedly happened?

I imagine it went something like: “Oh, That Guy (TG)? Wasn’t he the one who took the time out of his incredibly busy life to whine to me and 30+ other ISU folks about a competition that wasn’t the result he hoped for? Wasn’t TG the one who boasted to news outlets that he had taken our ISU seminar in an attempt to legitimize himself - but then didn’t ACTUALLY follow through with any ISU certification… and then, out of spite, TG badmouthed these very ISU seminars, and tried to delegitimize our ISU judges who actually worked hard to complete their certification …… and then didn’t TG have the unmitigated gall to ask the same ISU - whom he slammed - to hear him out and his long winded Sochi grievances? Lol… TG, who?! We don’t know her.”
So your point is... "Russians are overscored and they don't care about fair sport, and also lolol it's so funny when someone tried to speak to them about rules and they ignored this person who tried to speak to them about it"?

Alright.
 
It’s so intriguing … I still can’t quite pinpoint what male skaters like Chen or Chan have in common that so very oddly puts you off from them, compared to male skaters you extol like Lambiel or Plushenko or Brown. What could it be?!
That they're a Michelle Kwan stan.
 
He literally does nothing going into his first jump except stroke and build speed and you try to turn it into something deliberate and positive. The start of the program gives zero indication of theme, shapes, soul, intent or whatever you say Chen is lacking in his start to his program. You’ve also said that creating shapes stuff when Lambiel had a literal standstill in his program. Plu hip thrusts and you call it charisma. Plu could crawl on the ice and you’d find a way to spin it into something positive. WOW I never realized how much of a Plu stan are you are.
Ah yes, more strawmans and lack of knowledge. Plushenko has received plenty of criticism from me over the years and I wouldn't rate any of his programs as one of my absolute favorites, but he has some great qualities, most of which have become lost and improperly scored with the A.I./CoP-ization of skating.

There is nothing wrong with a standstill in a program, when appropriate with the music and choreo. The majority of LP's should have one, actually. It shows how clueless you are that you're trying to talk about standstills in programs as being some kind of "anti-choreo", when they create necessary variances and allow skaters to emote in ways that are otherwise not possible. Nor is it bad to build speed and maintain good posture and tension going into a jump, as compared to including some random turns for no reason and breaking the body line. (FYI, I do think Plushenko should have performed a more extended arm movement to go with that bell chime at the start of the program, but otherwise nothing else was "needed" with the music; his gaze at the start of the program and the way he carries himself and accelerates into the first jump, directly in time with the music going from quiet simmer into a swell, is an effective interpretation of that music).

Get some education on how contrast, tempo, form, and mood are needed to create art. Stillness is a highly beneficial tool. Whether it's painting or storytelling or dancing or music, you need peaks and valleys within what is being created. Otherwise it just turns into a cacophony, or something mundane where there isn't a strong point of view. Artistry in skating is not about doing constant busywork (unless it creates a good visual and goes with the music). It's about being emotionally open and using the ice as a stage, and using the human body as the paint brush, while trying to find the colors and shapes, light and shadow, that best personify the music.

You've continually shown that you really only care about the technical side of skating, and specifically only the technical qualities the CoP happens to be rewarding. A very echo-chamber mentality that seems amplified by the idea that Canadians won't be scored fairly if these rules don't exist. To you, a skater doing a random bracket turn or twizzle or whatnot is an inherent display of performance or choreo, but that is NOT what what artistry is. Those are just notes on a keyboard. Hitting a bunch of notes that are technically hard to play together doesn't inherently make a good song. The notes need to have MEANING, they need to come together to create an actual expressive and melodious tone.

Your outlook on skating basically equates to saying that spending 200 million on CGI in MCU movies makes them better and more visually pleasing films than anything else out there.

I still can’t quite pinpoint what male skaters like Chen or Chan have in common that so very oddly puts you off from them, compared to male skaters you extol like Lambiel or Plushenko or Brown. What could it be?!

You need to be banned for a month. Your jealous ranting about my ongoing work with the ISU is already tiresome and inappropriate enough, but THIS is some kind of gross racist implication, when you're fully aware that Takahashi, Kozuka, Hanyu, Amodio, etc are people I've highly championed, and when I don't think any of Brown's programs post 2018 have been great. You ALWAYS do this, never even attempting to understand what is being said and just writing whatever nasty lie as a debate tactic.
 
I have no answer for the question, I only came here to say: People say it's a sport, but if you ask me who's the better figure skater, Daisuke Takahashi or Ilia Malinin, there's no doubt for me it's Takahashi.
Takahashi still used to do exceptional tech content for his time.

Another skater who was placed behind others with more mistakes for no real reason though.
 
I think that the men's LP at the Grand Prix Final put the exclamation point on the question of this thread.. Shun Sato and Daniel Grassi did everything humanly possible. They delivered satisfying programs and well-received performances. They were clean throughout with all positive GOEs.

Malinin did 7 quads and won by 40 points.
 
I think that the men's LP at the Grand Prix Final put the exclamation point on the question of this thread.. Shun Sato and Daniel Grassi did everything humanly possible. They delivered satisfying programs and well-received performances. They were clean throughout with all positive GOEs.

Malinin did 7 quads and won by 40 points if q

I think that the men's LP at the Grand Prix Final put the exclamation point on the question of this thread.. Shun Sato and Daniel Grassi did everything humanly possible. They delivered satisfying programs and well-received performances. They were clean throughout with all positive GOEs.

Malinin did 7 quads and won by 40 points.

Shun was definitely underscored in my books but suffered from being the Japanese #2.

As for Ilya - well he stepped up big time. As much as people would love to slam his artistry to try to trivialize the inhuman technical ability he’s showing, he put on a show. Flawless. 7 quads, every type. He is beyond scoring or haters.

Grassl isn’t my cup of tea either but credit to him for stepping up too. Even Fa did well too.

This FS in the GPF was hella exciting for the sport - each skater landed at least 2 quads. 22 clean quads landed between 6 skaters. And still programs had transitions and performance quality.

If you want artistry over jumps, enjoy the gala.
 
But the question still remains. If Ilia had receive 5s instead of 9s in PCSs in the LP, he still would have won. Does this show an imbalance in terms of "what really counts" in the present version of the IJS?
If he'd got 52 PCS - it'd show that figure skating as a sport is very balanced. A man who did 7 quads and all different types of quads in the same program barely beat the bronze medalist, and lost by ten points to someone who made multiple errors but was 'artistic' and had better skating skills. (Edit: fact check)

Problem is, while I don't at all think Malinin deserves 92 PCS, he DOES deserve decent PCS. He did a spread eagle into a 4F, and see how well in tune with the music that final spin's features are. That jump to change foot is extremely hard to boot and surely deserves consideration in the CO component as well. The guy radiates aura and has immense confidence, that comes across in his performance.
 
Last edited:
That he did. Astonishing performance.

But the question still remains. If Ilia had receive 5s instead of 9s in PCSs in the LP, he still would have won. Does this show an imbalance in terms of "what really counts" in the present version of the IJS?

And if he was limited to 3 quads and did 4A/4Z/4F, while turning his other quads into triples, he still would have won. And would that suddenly have made his program more artistically balanced just because points wise his TES was closer to his PCS?

The other guys are welcome to add more quads or learn how to do a quad axel. Just because they can’t and don’t shouldn’t be a reason to handicap Malinin.
 
Takahashi still used to do exceptional tech content for his time.

Another skater who was placed behind others with more mistakes for no real reason though.

Takahashi was an exceptional all around skater but his jumps lacked amplitude and he often faced UR/<< issues as a result… so that (rightfully) hampered his GOE. Interpretation/versatility wise though he was one of the best.
 
Ah yes, more strawmans and lack of knowledge. Plushenko has received plenty of criticism from me over the years and I wouldn't rate any of his programs as one of my absolute favorites, but he has some great qualities, most of which have become lost and improperly scored with the A.I./CoP-ization of skating.

There is nothing wrong with a standstill in a program, when appropriate with the music and choreo. The majority of LP's should have one, actually. It shows how clueless you are that you're trying to talk about standstills in programs as being some kind of "anti-choreo", when they create necessary variances and allow skaters to emote in ways that are otherwise not possible. Nor is it bad to build speed and maintain good posture and tension going into a jump, as compared to including some random turns for no reason and breaking the body line. (FYI, I do think Plushenko should have performed a more extended arm movement to go with that bell chime at the start of the program, but otherwise nothing else was "needed" with the music; his gaze at the start of the program and the way he carries himself and accelerates into the first jump, directly in time with the music going from quiet simmer into a swell, is an effective interpretation of that music).

Get some education on how contrast, tempo, form, and mood are needed to create art. Stillness is a highly beneficial tool. Whether it's painting or storytelling or dancing or music, you need peaks and valleys within what is being created. Otherwise it just turns into a cacophony, or something mundane where there isn't a strong point of view. Artistry in skating is not about doing constant busywork (unless it creates a good visual and goes with the music). It's about being emotionally open and using the ice as a stage, and using the human body as the paint brush, while trying to find the colors and shapes, light and shadow, that best personify the music.

You've continually shown that you really only care about the technical side of skating, and specifically only the technical qualities the CoP happens to be rewarding. A very echo-chamber mentality that seems amplified by the idea that Canadians won't be scored fairly if these rules don't exist. To you, a skater doing a random bracket turn or twizzle or whatnot is an inherent display of performance or choreo, but that is NOT what what artistry is. Those are just notes on a keyboard. Hitting a bunch of notes that are technically hard to play together doesn't inherently make a good song. The notes need to have MEANING, they need to come together to create an actual expressive and melodious tone.

Your outlook on skating basically equates to saying that spending 200 million on CGI in MCU movies makes them better and more visually pleasing films than anything else out there.



You need to be banned for a month. Your jealous ranting about my ongoing work with the ISU is already tiresome and inappropriate enough, but THIS is some kind of gross racist implication, when you're fully aware that Takahashi, Kozuka, Hanyu, Amodio, etc are people I've highly championed, and when I don't think any of Brown's programs post 2018 have been great. You ALWAYS do this, never even attempting to understand what is being said and just writing whatever nasty lie as a debate tactic.

Lol what? I never accused you of anything of the sort. You’re such a classy, standup guy who none of us would ever believe capable of that — seems you are as good at projection and interpretation as Plushenko is! 😂

And I am always open to more education - any ISU seminars you would recommend?
 
Last edited:
I think that the men's LP at the Grand Prix Final put the exclamation point on the question of this thread.. Shun Sato and Daniel Grassi did everything humanly possible. They delivered satisfying programs and well-received performances. They were clean throughout with all positive GOEs.

Malinin did 7 quads and won by 40 points.
Did he do them? I feel really guilty a this stage not to have watched Men's Free yet. In the Short, all his jumps but the Triple Axel were underrotated (he got two q calls for these three underrotations, I ought to call it a progress); and as far as I know, his Quadruple Axels have always been underrotated; it's hard to believe that for the first time in his life, today, he's rotated it? I'd celebrate it because official ratification is one thing, the real thing is what matters for me.
 
Malinin's rotated and landed several 4As. They're perhaps not the best way you could be jumping them, but the rotation is there.
 
Well, increasing the weighting of a subjective element in singles skating does increase the subjectivity of the scoring, no argument there.

If by "like Ice Dance" you mean "the judges' judgment determines results more than the difficulty of the elements performed," then yes, that can happen. And if you mean that judges can rely on their biases more than their expert judgment when scoring those subjective elements, then yes, that can happen too. But probably not as often as fans with their own biases and less expertise assume.

On the other hand, if by "like Ice Dance" you mean "all about skating skills and musical interpretation and not much else counts," then no.
If the singles discipline is supposed to include a balanced program blending skating skills and artistry (to use a handy word to some up everything covered in the current Composition and Presentation components) AND jumps and spins and steps and turns and other skating moves, then there should be a good balance of all those things.

Right now the balance seems weighted too heavily toward jumps and especially toward the number of rotations in the air. No one is suggesting that singles skaters should no longer do jumps or that they shouldn't challenge themselves and each other with the maximum difficulty the human body is capable of with today's technique. Just that there can be better ways to balance the importance of on-ice skills with the current overimportance (IMO) of above-the-ice skills.


My argument is that, first and foremost, all figure skating contests are rooted in the techniques of figure skating -- controlling the glide of blades on edges and all the many different ways of transitioning from one edge to another.

Different disciplines have developed other skills that are included along with those fundamental skating skills. In singles skating, jumps and spins have progressed in difficulty and importance throughout the sport's history across the 20th century and into the 21st.

But that doesn't mean that the difficulty and importance of the skating skills need to REGRESS in difficulty and importance to allow for the progress in other aspects of the discipline. There is room for progress in all areas.


They can skate like singles skaters (i.e., without partners, and often without focusing on rhythmic music, while executing jumps and spins along with their skating skills) and still maintain excellence in fundamental skating ability.

If fundamental skating ability no longer counts, then it's not really the same sport any more.



Well, around the time figures were eliminated it also became more common for figure skaters to hire professional skating choreographers rather than just putting their programs together themselves along with their coaches. So -- at least for those who bothered to invest in expert choreography -- we did start seeing more coherent programs.

But other skaters, or some of the same skaters, also started focusing on adding more rotations in the air. Two or three different triples was no longer enough for women to win medals. Triple axels, triple-triple combinations, and soon at least one quad soon became necessary for men to do so. And often the result was emptier programs. Even for skaters who were good at interpreting music and enjoyable to watch for that reason (e.g., Oksana Baiul, Nicole Bobek at her best).

Kurt Browning at his peak could deliver difficult jumps along with complex, highly musical choreography. And he did win two world titles with school figures, so he wasn't bad at those either. But his best choreography probably came after his jump content started to decline. E.g., he may have won 1991 Worlds on the strength of jump content at least as much as the transitional skating content, but by 1993 it was the program and the on-ice content the prevailed over others' jumps.

Most of the medal-winning programs in the decade that followed were much less complex and less "artistic" in my opinion. But soon there were more quads.

My favorite programs in all eras are those in which there are interesting things happening on the ice. Transitional moves, step sequences, musical interpretation while those things are happening and not just while standing/dancing in place or doing simple stroking to get to the next element.

I can give examples from all of the last 4 decades.

I can also give examples of boring programs from all decades.

And programs that were impressive because of clean jumps and musicality/charisma, and strong simple stroking, but didn't really have much interesting going on with the blades. I don't want that to be the best the 2020s have to offer because the focus is on what happens in the air.
I've been thinking about Components scoring for a while, and with several threads discussions, and at last the image has come...
In Elements, the score is determined by the nature of an element, but also by its difficulty.
This is why a Lutz is a Lutz, but a Single Lutz is worth 0.6, a Double Lutz 2.1, a Triple Lutz 5.9, and a Quadruple Lutz 11.5; and if you skate several, within the limits of a good balance of the program, you will get the benefit of it. And to each, a Grade of Execution apply (or a reduction of Base Value in some cases). (I don't pretend that rules are completely applied there but at least, a 1Lz won't be scored on the Base Value of a 4Lz.)
This is not how we see any of the Components scored, don't you think? The proportion of difficult steps, their execution, don't seem reflected in the Skating Skills score; an intricate choreography on a difficult rhythm, with elaborate moves needing precision, explosiveness... I don't see it scored above a very simple choreography performed approximately?
 
Malinin's rotated and landed several 4As. They're perhaps not the best way you could be jumping them, but the rotation is there.
Please, when? I've watched a good number since (and including) the official ratification and they were all underrotated. By underrotated, I mean that they were lacking over 90° in rotation, not that they were lacking over 120°... It's still impressive of course.
 
Please, when? I've watched a good number since (and including) the official ratification and they were all underrotated. By underrotated, I mean that they were lacking over 90° in rotation, not that they were lacking over 120°... It's still impressive of course.
The first one ever done was rotated? A few others that season were too, the one in this LP looked fine to me as well.

I'm not sure what you mean by 90 versus 120. The rule is >90° on landing gets a <, greater than 180° gets <<
 
Back
Top