Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

[gkelly]

Levito has always been exceptionally talented for her level when it comes to musical interpretation, long before she competed against top seniors or juniors:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

I was talking to a skating parent a couple years ago, whose daughter had done very well at the juvenile level and had a few triples, working on gaining the rest. Because she was now 13, it was suggested by skating insiders to move directly up to junior level. But this parent didn't think that was appropriate -- the daughter was not developmentally ready for the pressures of even junior competition, and because of the new age rules she'd then have to stay at the same level for years, so why rush? She moved up to intermediate.
Because the parent cared about the daughter as a person first.

 

[yfan1]

Levito has always been exceptionally talented for her level when it comes to musical interpretation, long before she competed against top seniors or juniors:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

This just reminds me of how fantastic the US women's team this season could potentially be! Strongest since Kwan/Cohen/Hughes of 2002 if the team ends up being Liu/Levito/Glenn.

 

[lariko]

Because I agree with your point that most parents think of skating as their child's hobby, not as some kind of "prestige" thing (prestige for the parent, that is) that comes from dreaming about the Olympics.

In fact, I would go farther and say that 99.99% of the time, parents who obsess over pushing their child beyond his or her talent or interest can only be harmful, like, shame on you, you bad child, to disappoint your parents so willfully as to get only a silver medal, you ungrateful dog, after all we did for you!

And then you see high achieving amazing adults raised by these type of parents we all judge when the supportive, respectful parenting results in NEETs and shut-ins. It's just so unfair.

 

[4everchan]

Because I agree with your point that most parents think of skating as their child's hobby, not as some kind of "prestige" thing (prestige for the parent, that is) that comes from dreaming about the Olympics.

In fact, I would go farther and say that 99.99% of the time, parents who obsess over pushing their child beyond his or her talent or interest can only be harmful, like, shame on you, you bad child, to disappoint your parents so willfully as to get only a silver medal, you ungrateful dog, after all we did for you!

I was confused because it talked about so many things I hadn't talked about.. .but you know.. college admissions LOL yeah... I do think that's a really overhyped topic here... And you know, our education system in Canada is completely different, and many education systems in Europe too, from the Ivy League hyper expensive private school system of the USA. I'd say that there too, money will be a factor over many for admission (and certainly grades and entrance tests over extracurricular achievements )

 

[Mathman]

when the supportive, respectful parenting results in NEETs and shut-ins.

I do not believe that supportive respectful parenting leads to NEETs and layabouts. (I had to look up "NEET" )

I have known many parents who are supportive and respectful whose children did not turn out to be layabouts and idle video game players living in their parents' basements.

 

[lariko]

I do not believe that supportive respectful parenting leads to NEETs and layabouts. (I had to look up "NEET" )

I have known many parents who are supportive and respectful whose children did not turn out to be layabouts and idle video game players living in their parents' basements.

And when it happens, then what? Life's unfair and parenting is the most unfair thing of all.

 

[yfan1]

And when it happens, then what?

Then they'd be in the same company as those who were irreparably screwed up by their parents' demands.

But at least they had a pleasant childhood to go along with it.

 

[lariko]

Then they'd be in the same company as those who were irreparably screwed up by their parents' demands.

But at least they had a pleasant childhood to go along with it.

The parenting is not about creating a nice childhood, but about having an adult as end product not a pet. At least if the parents demanded achievement, those kids have something to fall back on if they wish to and understand the price and taste of achievement and can do it again. At least they have something.

 

[Mathman]

Not being an expert on the dynamics of parenting, I would like to return to the discussion of various ideas for improving figure skating judging by handling the criteria for PCSs differently.

I have to say that I don't think the answer lies trying to make "artistry" more precisely measurable or in providing better education to judges about whether this choreographic detail or that is more "artistic."

Take music, for example. I asked my AI Music Critic to evaluate Sebastian Bach. AI said, "He hit a few positive bullet points, but oh those parallel fifths -- -2 deduction. I give him a 7.75."

I am especially unmoved by competitive skating programs that rely on story-telling, miming and acting out the lyrics of a song. Does a counter followed by a three-turn say Anna Karenina just got run over by a train, while a chasse followed by a mazurka means Tosca threw herself over the parapet?

I acknowledge that subjectivity in judging is (and always has been) a concern. But sometimes 'tis better to bear the ills we have than fly others that we know not of.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Not being an expert on the dynamics of parenting, I would like to return to the discussion of various ideas for improving figure skating judging by handling the criteria for PCSs differently.

I have to say that I don't think the answer lies trying to make "artistry" more precisely measurable or in providing better education to judges about whether this choreographic detail or that is more "artistic."

Take music, for example. I asked my AI Music Critic to evaluate Sebastian Bach. AI said, "He hit a few positive bullet points, but oh those parallel fifths -- -2 deduction. I give him a 7.75."

I am especially unmoved by competitive skating programs that rely on story-telling, miming and acting out the lyrics of a song. Does a counter followed by a three-turn say Anna Karenina just got run over by a train, while a chasse followed by a mazurka means Tosca threw herself over the parapet?

I acknowledge that subjectivity in judging is (and always has been) a concern. But sometimes 'tis better to bear the ills we have than fly others that we know not of.

But that's why lays the misunderstanding, isn't it? The object of PCS is very marginally to measure any artistry. It's mostly another technical score. And while a perfect but unemoting technique can exist in theory, technique IS a tool to artistry which is mostly unjudged in Figure Skating competition, and believe me or not, I'm fine with that, even if what I seek primarily in Figure Skating is artistic. I would really object to an Artistic Score! Let's artistic judging go to the public, good or bad.

Other than that, don't you think that falls are penalised too harshly nowadays, with 50% of the Base Value as negative Grade of Execution, PLUS one point penalty PLUS the PCS deduction (unless they're pets, that is)?

 

[Arigato]

In fact, I would go farther and say that 99.99% of the time, parents who obsess over pushing their child beyond his or her talent or interest can only be harmful, like, shame on you, you bad child, to disappoint your parents so willfully as to get only a silver medal, you ungrateful dog, after all we did for you!

That is an example of two people who never should have had kids to begin with.

Life's unfair and parenting is the most unfair thing of all.

Life is unfair to you. Parenting is the most unfair thing of all to you. Go have some cappuccino. Put on some beautiful music. Do anything! But get rid of that negativity.

 

[Mathman]

Does anyone remember the Hallmark Cards commercial a few years ago that featured a little girl who was about to go out onto the ice for her first figure skating competition? Her mom gave here two envelopes and told her, "Open this one if you win, and that one if you don't."

So as soon as the mother's back was turned the child opened them both. The first card said, on the front, "Do you know how special you are?" And then on the inside, "I do."

Then she opened the second card.

"Do you know how special you are?"

"I do."

(I.m a sucker for stuff like that. )

 

[Magill]

Anyone who perceives children as "products" bears witness to their own ignorance and bad taste. Children are not products, they are human beings, and no need to be obsessed with achievements as a sign of success.

And in the end of the day, as a parent, you may try your best, but never know what will come out of it
I always bear in mind what Yuzu said when asked - and many times - about the way he was raised up: "My parents never pressed me to keep on skating , no matter how old I was I always had a choice. And that was the wisest thing they could do. If they ever pressed me, combined with the pressure I was under anyway, I would have quitted a thousand times... it was this sense of freedom that actually helped me to come back each time I wanted to quit... "

As a mum, I always thought my task was to show and create opportunities but it was up to my kid to pick up the ones they wanted to follow and the manner to do it. As for skating, my baby girl said she loves the feeling she gets when gliding and dancing freely across the ice with music of her choice playing in her earbuds and fitting her mood. She quickly proceeded to the most advanced group in her club but, unlike some of her friends, never wanted to compete, she said she did not want to trade this beautiful relaxed feeling of utmost harmony and happiness for competitive tension. She believed no win was worth it, and of course I respected it. I never had any plan for her to compete anyway, I just wanted her to be happy and have fun, and had no ambition of my own squeezed into this adventure of hers.
If she decided otherwise, I would have supported her in any choice she made.
So now she has the same boots and blades as world champions but uses them just for a hobby.
And she is doing great in her other endeavours, thank you very much.
Not to mention, I think it was a very wise choice.

 

[Mathman]

...technique IS a tool to artistry which is mostly unjudged in Figure Skating competition...

I don't agree that artistry is unjudged. It is unmeasured, but I do think that the judges take a stab at forming a judgment about the esthetic merit of a performance, about whether they like the choreography and whether they think the skater shows a connection to the music. I think that this is why Skating Skills, Presentation and Composition are usually just bundled together into one big ball of wax, channeling the old 6.0 second mark concept.

Other than that, don't you think that falls are penalized too harshly nowadays, with 50% of the Base Value as negative Grade of Execution, PLUS one point penalty PLUS the PCS deduction (unless they're pets, that is)?

I think the current rules are OK. A quad toe (base value 9.50) gets you 3,75 points (disregarding the PCS hit if it majorly disrupts the program). This is just slightly lower than a satisfactory 3T wirh 0 GOE (4.20).

To me this is a reasonable compromise between the purist mantra that says a fall means that the skater did not do the element at all, so automatic 0 points -- and the opposite view that if the jump had good approach, good takeoff, good air position, full rotations -- well, that's not nothing.

 

[TontoK]

I have a personal experience that is not related to figure skating, but I wonder if the concepts transfer.

When he was younger, our son was a gifted pianist. And when I say gifted, I mean very, very good for his age.

As he progressed, so did the cost to engage better teachers and tutors. His main teacher had him getting side lessons with someone for technique and drills, some for advanced theory, someone for this, someone for that - not necessarily all at one time continually, but it was a lot. It was absolutely in good faith - she recognized the talent. It got to the point where was working with a pianist for the symphony who was coaching him for a "guest solo" with them - a novelty prodigy sort of thing - and none of this came cheap. We were not, and still are not, wealthy people.

His interest began to waver around the time boys become interested in girls, however, and we had a talk. If he was "all in" we'd continue on this path, and we'd find a way. But he HAD to be all in. If he was more interested in playing for personal enjoyment, then we needed to scale back. We scaled back, because that was HIS decision. Turns out he wasn't really that interested in playing with the symphony anyway - he just liked being good at something and was flattered by the attention - and he got out of school for various lessons, trips, and events.

I imagine figure skating could be even more expensive than living a serious musical pursuit. I wonder how many of the terrible skating parents are really just the ones who've invested all they have because they wanted to support their child and got in too deep. I think I'm more sympathetic than many.

I'm interested in hearing from @4everchan because I think he might have some insights.

 

[gkelly]

I don't agree the artistry is unjudged. It is unmeasured, but I do think that the judges take a stab at forming a judgment about the "artistic" merit of a performance, about whether they like the choreography and whether they think the skater shows a connection to the music.

Strictly speaking, they're not judging whether they "like" the choreography as a matter of personal preference.

They're evaluating whether the skater demonstrated multidimensional movements and how fully they used the space; connections between and within the elements (difficulty, quality, and variety implied but no longer explicit since the separate "Transitions" score was eliminated); whether the movements reflect the musical phrase and form, the pattern and ice coverage, and the "unity" (i.e., how well it all hangs together).

To the extent that judges appreciate those qualities, they will "like" a performance better that does those things better.

But it's perfectly possible that a judge might hate the concept behind a program and a lot of the specific choreographic choices (e.g., perhaps a program that glorifies violence or overt sexuality), but still acknowledge that included a lot of original movement that was well phrased to the music and covered the ice well in all directions and across the temporal design of the program. In which case they should give high scores even if they hate the program emotionally.

Or vice versa, if the music choice and the skater's charismatic, heartfelt (or, e.g., successfully comedic) interpretation thereof really resonate with the judge emotionally, but they can see that there really wasn't a lot of skating content outside the elements, the patterning was very simple, etc. Liked it artistically, disliked it at as an example of the kind of program construction that deserves higher scores.

I think that this is why Skating Skills, Presentation and Composition are usually just bundled together into one big ball of wax, channeling the old 6.0 second mark concept.

Well, there are overlaps. E.g., it's hard to have good ice coverage with poor skating skills. Fully appreciating the composition requires the skater to present/perform it effectively. Etc.

 

[TontoK]

I am especially unmoved by competitive skating programs that rely on story-telling, miming and acting out the lyrics of a song. Does a counter followed by a three-turn say Anna Karenina just got run over by a train, while a chasse followed by a mazurka means Tosca threw herself over the parapet?

I'm with you 100 percent here. An emotional journey? Yeah, I like that. But the playacting on ice? Nope.

It's why I dislike Chaplin programs and Sherlock Holmes programs. "Look at me twirl my imaginary cane and pretend to stumble as though I'll fall! Watch me present to smoke this pipe and put my fist to my chin as though I'm in deep thought!"

 

[gkelly]

"Look at me twirl my imaginary cane and pretend to stumble as though I'll fall! Watch me present to smoke this pipe and put my fist to my chin as though I'm in deep thought!"

More impressive if they can do it while executing difficult turns in the step sequence, or while executing a level 4 spin.

 

[yfan1]

I don't agree that artistry is unjudged. It is unmeasured, but I do think that the judges take a stab at forming a judgment about the esthetic merit of a performance, about whether they like the choreography and whether they think the skater shows a connection to the music. I think that this is why Skating Skills, Presentation and Composition are usually just bundled together into one big ball of wax, channeling the old 6.0 second mark concept.

TBH, I do think judging skating "artistry" is easier to judge than actual art. The fact that composition can be a very technical component helps, as an example.

 

[4everchan]

I have a personal experience that is not related to figure skating, but I wonder if the concepts transfer.

When he was younger, our son was a gifted pianist. And when I say gifted, I mean very, very good for his age.

As he progressed, so did the cost to engage better teachers and tutors. His main teacher had him getting side lessons with someone for technique and drills, some for advanced theory, someone for this, someone for that - not necessarily all at one time continually, but it was a lot. It was absolutely in good faith - she recognized the talent. It got to the point where was working with a pianist for the symphony who was coaching him for a "guest solo" with them - a novelty prodigy sort of thing - and none of this came cheap. We were not, and still are not, wealthy people.

His interest began to waver around the time boys become interested in girls, however, and we had a talk. If he was "all in" we'd continue on this path, and we'd find a way. But he HAD to be all in. If he was more interested in playing for personal enjoyment, then we needed to scale back. We scaled back, because that was HIS decision. Turns out he wasn't really that interested in playing with the symphony anyway - he just liked being good at something and was flattered by the attention - and he got out of school for various lessons, trips, and events.

I imagine figure skating could be even more expensive than living a serious musical pursuit. I wonder how many of the terrible skating parents are really just the ones who've invested all they have because they wanted to support their child and got in too deep. I think I'm more sympathetic than many.

I'm interested in hearing from @4everchan because I think he might have some insights.

and then, there are the summer festivals/master classes, the competition fees, the clothing (not as expensive of course as figure skating costumes but my first real tux, a million years ago cost me 800 dollars (custom made so I have room in the shoulders to play but well adjusted everywhere else because you need to look good) and it never ends...

the other issues for young musicians is that they need to practice. Those who can afford it do not need to work part-time or take summer jobs. But when you have to work to fund your studies, you also end up not having as much time to practice so you are constantly feeling behind or constantly working = no social life.

Also, let's not forget the price of instruments The better you are, the more expensive it gets.

So yeah. trust me. My parents did what they could. I did the rest by myself (and was lucky enough to win a lot of scholarships and prizes) but in the end, my parents never thought this would be my career and would have preferred I did something much more stable.

Lucky for me, the time I was interested in girls never came LOL...and my passion was strong enough to keep going when it became harder and harder. But yeah, in my field, and also with the people I met from sports ( I was a swimmer too) the parents who are hardcore pushy because they want "return on their money or prestige" is not even 1 per cent. Also, in all my friends and colleagues from youth, I am the only one still making it a career. That's a lot of people who are doing other things now and are happy, and have children doing music... not for the glamour but because it's such a wonderful life experience for children. It gives so much more than money and prestige. Discipline and perseverance, a sense of achievement, pride, all the experiences from studying abroad (musicians do like skaters and find mentors all over the world), etc. I wouldn't change my life at all... Sacrifices, still today, because of the atypical schedules and very very long hours of work... but yeah, I am happy. My parents are happy though still would prefer it if I were a physician or an engineer


So, from my experience, whether it is sports, arts, performing arts, anything like that, most parents still see it as extra-curricular activities... and are willing to pay more and more and more as much as they can, while their kids who started out just for fun develop into the elite. They keep paying because they see how happy their children are. Not because they want their kids to bring home a medal... In the end, I'd say that many parents would prefer that their kids pursue more secure options. So it's never seen or almost never seen as a way to get a return on investment or glamour or prestige or to boost a CV for college applications. I am certainly not saying that there are no parents at all who see things like that. I am saying that it's very minor.

Other people may have different experiences and that's fine with me. Mine was certainly not about money and prestige.