Should there be an Exception for Mao?

[Mafke]

The JSF can't send Mao to 4CC because it is an ISU championship event and under the same rule that makes her ineligible for the Olympics, Mao is too young to go to 4CC.

I did not know that (Johnny Carson voice). Point well taken, I'm still suspicious of the JF's motives in sending her to the GP though. (And intrigued by the ISU's de facto admission that the GPF is not a championship event ....) but how old was Kostner at her first Europeans?

 

[Mafke]

sasha cohen... when she is in top form, i don't think anyone else compares...

I'm not especially a fan of Cohen's skating, but I find myself regretting that she didn't win SLC. I think of the top four finishers, she would have had the post olympic career that would most benefit skating in terms of building an audience and doing lots of high profile skating on tv and the like - I think Kwan or Slute would have stayed eligible, which is better than disappearing but Cohen, I think, would have dropped eligible skating very quickly and moved on to tv specials and SOI.

I don't especially like the olympics as a skating competition and don't care much who wins, but I hope that whoever wins has a high profile skating career afterwards.

 

[Sheggy]

There are Reasons

It's funny to hear people list the reason for letting her go now as being "what if she can't do it in four years? What if she's injured due to the repetitive poundings?, etc., etc." The thing that you have to do is look at it from the other side.

What if the ISU opened it up to anyone who could do the jumps...since that is the only requirement these days. You would have small children pounding their bodies day in and day out trying to attain the jumping status so that they could go. There would be no restraints. Ultimately, you would have a bunch of broke down figure skaters on the ice and the results would only reflect "the last one standing."

While Mao is really talented, you can't just change the rules because every once in a while some young phenom comes along. If we aren't careful, every little girl and boy for that matter will be trying their best - at risk of severe injuries - to be that next phenom.

 

[antmanb]

It's funny to hear people list the reason for letting her go now as being "what if she can't do it in four years? What if she's injured due to the repetitive poundings?, etc., etc." The thing that you have to do is look at it from the other side.

What if the ISU opened it up to anyone who could do the jumps...since that is the only requirement these days. You would have small children pounding their bodies day in and day out trying to attain the jumping status so that they could go. There would be no restraints. Ultimately, you would have a bunch of broke down figure skaters on the ice and the results would only reflect "the last one standing."

While Mao is really talented, you can't just change the rules because every once in a while some young phenom comes along. If we aren't careful, every little girl and boy for that matter will be trying their best - at risk of severe injuries - to be that next phenom.

But this happens anyway regardless of the age rules. In junior international competitions, in order to be competitive you have to have a full set of triples whether you are male or female and the kids in the rinks know this.

Regardless of the age rules there are more than a few very young girls ni my rink who are pounding themselves trying to get the double axel. A few are even desparately trying to land the triple salchow and are really falling hard trying, whether the limit was there or not the skaters will still try - Mao being a prime example!

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

While Mao is really talented, you can't just change the rules because every once in a while some young phenom comes along. If we aren't careful, every little girl and boy for that matter will be trying their best - at risk of severe injuries - to be that next phenom.

Do you really believe that this ISU rule will keep young skaters from practicing more difficult elements? I contend that it will not, and if this is what is behind the rule, then the rule is totally wrong. I'm with you on some of what you say. I will not be in favor of the ISU ever changing this rule, or give exceptions to the rule for whatever reasons.

Joe

 

[chuckm]

I did not know that (Johnny Carson voice). Point well taken, I'm still suspicious of the JF's motives in sending her to the GP though. (And intrigued by the ISU's de facto admission that the GPF is not a championship event ....) but how old was Kostner at her first Europeans?

Kostner was born February 8, 1987 and 2003 Euros was her first ISU championship event (she was 4th--her best finish ever at Euros). She was just two weeks short of her 16th birthday.

 

[chuckm]

I'm not especially a fan of Cohen's skating, but I find myself regretting that she didn't win SLC. I think of the top four finishers, she would have had the post olympic career that would most benefit skating in terms of building an audience and doing lots of high profile skating on tv and the like - I think Kwan or Slute would have stayed eligible, which is better than disappearing but Cohen, I think, would have dropped eligible skating very quickly and moved on to tv specials and SOI.

I don't especially like the olympics as a skating competition and don't care much who wins, but I hope that whoever wins has a high profile skating career afterwards.

Cohen's goal in 2002 was to win the OGM and retire, "just like Tara". However, her winning the OGM wouldn't have benefitted figure skating to any extent, maybe just SOI. Figure skating got a HUGE black eye in 2002 because of the Pairs scandal, and figure skating events on TV have dwindled down to nothing. Sasha's presence in the GPs since SLC have contributed more to the popularity of FS than her presence on a pro tour would. And if Sasha was gone, it's doubtful that the US would have 3 ladies spots for Torino. Hughes would have been gone off to college after 2003 Worlds, and the "third lady" (mostly Kirk) has been woefully unsuccessful, with other ladies too young to skate at Worlds.

 

[chuckm]

I would prefer to say that Mao is eligible for the Olympics but the ISU prohibits her skating in the Olympics.

Joe

You might prefer to say this, Joe, but it wouldn't be true. The IOC doesn't set Olympic eligibility rules other than citizenship and conformance to drug testing regulations, and leaves other eligibility requirements to the individual sports governing authorities. The current ISU rules covering eligibility to participate in Olympics and ISU championship events, including age limits, have been in effect since 1996, when they were voted on and approved by a majority of ISU member federations.

Mao is not eligible to compete in the Olympics because she does not meet ISU age requirements, not because the ISU "prohibits" her from competing.

 

[soogar]

I personally think that if Sasha had won in SLC, skating would have received a huge boom. Sasha is gorgeous to look at and her skating is ideally suited for shows. Sasha is what the American media wants as an OGM : beautiful, feminine, delicate and white. There was no hint of awkwardness in Sasha that there was in Sarah Hughes. Sasha already has a high profile endorsement with Citzen despite the lack of an World title or Olympic medal. This ad runs in all the ladies magazines. If Sasha had won the OGM in SLC, not only would the upset story made a splash, but her looks and presence would have been just as big a story.

Sarah winning in SLC was such a letdown. Such a klutzy looking skater winning the biggest prize in figure skating. I think that was as underwhelming as Schuba winning gold.

 

[R.D.]

I personally think that if Sasha had won in SLC, skating would have received a huge boom

[snip]

Sasha is what the American media wants as an OGM : beautiful, feminine, delicate and white. There was no hint of awkwardness in Sasha that there was in Sarah Hughes. Sasha already has a high profile endorsement with Citzen despite the lack of an World title or Olympic medal. This ad runs in all the ladies magazines. If Sasha had won the OGM in SLC, not only would the upset story made a splash, but her looks and presence would have been just as big a story.

Sarah winning in SLC was such a letdown. Such a klutzy looking skater winning the biggest prize in figure skating. I think that was as underwhelming as Schuba winning gold.

I must agree

But I think MK winning gold would have been an even bigger deal.

I think the hype on Cohen for the 06 Olys may give me someone else to root against (nothing personal)

 

[Mafke]

I think MK winning gold would have been an even bigger deal.

In most ways yes. But then I think of MK as bigger than the olys (had she won it would helped "olympic gold medal" more than it would help MK (I feel much the same about Kurt Browning). But that's my biased opinion. But also, I think if she won I think she would have continued pretty much as she has (hard to say how that would have played out).
But the pairs scandal did a lot to hurt skating and it hasn't come close to recovering yet. And despite Speedy doing everything possible to make sure that no judge is ever held accountable again or that any misdeeds by judges will ever be uncovered again, I can't help but feel like we're all waiting for that other shoe to drop.
One thing Speedy didn't think of: Secret judging means (among other things) that it will be impossible to actually rectify any _perceived_ judging scandal and perceptions of bad judging are just as damaging as proven bad judging ...

 

[mzheng]

In most ways yes. But then I think of MK as bigger than the olys (had she won it would helped "olympic gold medal" more than it would help MK (I feel much the same about Kurt Browning). But that's my biased opinion. But also, I think if she won I think she would have continued pretty much as she has (hard to say how that would have played out).
...

Count me as the one who totally agree with you. But yeah, I'm biased too.

Even before 2002, I always felt Kurt Browning was the best among his era, but he had never won any color of Olympic medals. Which never diminish his skating in my mind. I followed pro in all those years, be cause of him in the mix not because Scott, not because Brian B, or any of O medalists.

 

[Crizzy]

But let's face it, Mao skates at a world-class level now, and four years is a long time to keep landing triple-triple combinations and triple axels in order to make it to the next olympics. In Mao's case, this age rule will probably be damaging, not only to her skating but to her body as well.

Any type of jumps are damaging to the body, spins can even cause injuries. It's the repetition that's a killer. I've seen a practice video of Mao's 3 axels, one after the other and another. I see her as another Tara but the rules cannot be blame for this, should she be unable to maintain her technical skills for the next four years. If she had to wait for the next Olympics, how is that hindering her ability to stay competitive. It's really smart practice and constant listening to one's body that will give her longevity in this sport. The ISU can rule out skaters at a certain age to only compete certain jumps. For instance no 3 axels in junior and so forth. HOWEVER, realistically speaking do you think the coaches and the skaters will not be practicing these difficult jumps/combos in their spare time. Of course they will. The girl is practicing quad loop, when she should learn to do a proper lutz instead.

The coach, her Federation and Mao herself knows the extent of doing these jumps and that's the risk their taking. Don't blame the rules should she miss 2006 Olympics and not keep healthy for 2010 Olympics.

 

[R.D.]

The coach, her Federation and Mao herself knows the extent of doing these jumps and that's the risk their taking. Don't blame the rules should she miss 2006 Olympics and not keep healthy for 2010 Olympics.

AGREED.

 

[LBC]

Until the Japanese have a Tara they aren't going to change their training habits. If Mao gets injured then it is the coach/federations fault for allowing her to do all those triple axels and triple loops at such a young age. Part of being a skater is avoiding injury too. A great skater has longevity other wise you are a one hit wonder. Michelle and Irina will be remembered more than Tara and Sarah will.
It isn't like they are preventing Mao from doing any olympics. She'll only be 19 in 2010 and 23 in 2014. She can go to at least 2 more olympics barring injury.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The current ISU rules covering eligibility to participate in Olympics and ISU championship events, including age limits, have been in effect since 1996, when they were voted on and approved by a majority of ISU member federations.

Mao is not eligible to compete in the Olympics because she does not meet ISU age requirements, not because the ISU "prohibits" her from competing.

That's exactly what I said (meant). It's not the OIC, it's the ISU.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The bottom line is all those posters who want to adhere to the rule on the basis that practicing high level jumps is dangerous for skaters under 16. It is not dangerous for skaters over 16? duh.

Personally, I think some posters just don't want Mao in the Olympics and this is the BEST way to keep her out. It is a RULE, unfortunately. But that is just my opinion. I just can't believe you are worried about her health and the iminent danger of the quad. The firm belief in the ISU is fascinating.

How many of these adamant posters would have loved an exception to the citizenship rule of the OIC? It is a rule.

Joe



.

 

[Mathman]

Why select a should-be junior skater without a full arsenal of jumps (yeah she's got a 3ax but no 3tl or 3sl and her lutz is a flutz so that means she effectively only does 3 different jumps?) to win a medal in next year's worlds?

I guess that's where the New Judging System comes in. It gives you points for what you do, but it does not take away any points for what you don't do.

In Mao's last performance she did not do a triple toe (4.0 points), but she did do a triple Axel (7.5 points).

She did not do a triple Salchow (4.5 points), but she did tack on four extra double loops to her 3Lo, 3F and 3Lz in the last half on the program, for a total of 6.6 extra points.

She did not do the world's most excellent and awesome triple Lutz (6.0 base + up to 3.0 GOE), but her two so-so, sort of OK, flutzy Lutzes gave her 12.6 points, with only a -0.4 GOE).

Do the math. With PCS mostly tracking the TES, if Irina retires after this season, who is going to challenge Mao in 2007?

MM

 

[mzheng]

The ISU can rule out skaters at a certain age to only compete certain jumps. For instance no 3 axels in junior and so forth. HOWEVER, realistically speaking do you think the coaches and the skaters will not be practicing these difficult jumps/combos in their spare time. Of course they will. The girl is practicing quad loop, when she should learn to do a proper lutz instead.

The coach, her Federation and Mao herself knows the extent of doing these jumps and that's the risk their taking. Don't blame the rules should she miss 2006 Olympics and not keep healthy for 2010 Olympics.

Realistic speaking, it depends on the coach. If a coach with the best interest of skater in mind, he won't have a kid (under certain age) practice 3A or quad even the kid asks herself.....But maybe Japanese are exception. They believe and promote the sacrifyce. Otherwise how do you comprehence those suicid kid pilots by the end of II world war, who volunteered crashing their airplane to American's carriers?

 

[donnar0226]

sasha cohen... when she is in top form, i don't think anyone else compares... no matter what their jump arsenal (like mao's) is. from purely a viewing standpoint, watching sasha cohen skate is watching something beautiful... but slutskaya and several others like arakawa... somehow their skating seems awkward to watch at times.

amen!