Should there be an Exception for Mao?

[donnar0226]

I have a sinking feeling that all this competition for spots is going to exhaust the Japanese ladies (like the US gymnastics team). Too much pressure isn't going to lead to good Olympic performances.[/QUOTE]


Tell that to Carly--she won the gold all around--didn't look to wore out to me!

 

[Rgirl]

I guess that's where the New Judging System comes in. It gives you points for what you do, but it does not take away any points for what you don't do.

In Mao's last performance she did not do a triple toe (4.0 points), but she did do a triple Axel (7.5 points).

She did not do a triple Salchow (4.5 points), but she did tack on four extra double loops to her 3Lo, 3F and 3Lz in the last half on the program, for a total of 6.6 extra points.

She did not do the world's most excellent and awesome triple Lutz (6.0 base + up to 3.0 GOE), but her two so-so, sort of OK, flutzy Lutzes gave her 12.6 points, with only a -0.4 GOE).

Do the math. With PCS mostly tracking the TES, if Irina retires after this season, who is going to challenge Mao in 2007?

MM

If Mao grows five inches and gains 20 LB (think Miki Ando) or gets injured before next season (think Naomi Nari Nam), lots of skaters could not only challenge Mao, or even roll right over her. This is nothing against Mao. I like her and would love to see her realize her potential. I'm just going by the potential of history.

The bottom line is all those posters who want to adhere to the rule on the basis that practicing high level jumps is dangerous for skaters under 16. It is not dangerous for skaters over 16? duh.

Actually, practicing high level jumps before the body's growth plates have fully developed into cartilage and bone is more dangerous and that development generally does not occur before the age of 16.

In lay terms, the growth plates are areas of still-growing tissue at the ends of the long bones. If they are damaged by high end-load pounding and pressure, the GPs either take years to recover or they are permanently damaged, depending on how severe the injury is. So, yes, there is a physiologic reason for having an age requirements for participation in senior Worlds and Olys. The problem is, I think they should be the same for the ISU as they are for the IOC. That is, if you're old enough to compete at senior Worlds you should be old enough to compete at the Olympics.

Another thing is that the junior level skaters are doing jumps that are just as difficult if not more so than the senior ladies. But perhaps the reason we don't see many senior ladies doing these difficult level of jumps and jump combos is that many of the "jumping juniors" don't ever make it to seniors because of injuries, such as to the growth plates.

ITA that until every country with a young skater of enormous potential has to watch the loss of that skater to permanent injury, ie, a "Tara," the super jumping will go on. A sad irony since much of the intention of the COP was to put more emphasis on skating skills other than jumps. But when a skater can rack up the kind of points Mathman noted in his post for certain combos, so much for Skating Skills and Transitions, to name just two PCS categories.

The "rock and a hard place" problem, IMO, is: How does the ISU reward truly diffiucult jumps and jump combos without encouraging young skaters to practice them to the point of injury? Even we go on and on about the need for great edges and great basics but what most of us are really impressed by is a great jumper.

What should the ISU do? Limit the number of combo jumps? (Don't they do that already?) Limit the number of jumps and jump combos per program? Increase the points for PCS categories? I don't know. Maybe they should do nothing. Before Roger Bannister broke the 4 min. mile it was thought by the best physicians of the day that the "heart would explode" under such stress. But better training techniques, nutrition from childhood, equipment such as shoes, etc. eventually made the 4 min. mile commonplace.

Right now, I think these difficult jumps and combos are taught and trained the same way jumps and combos always have been, with the exception of the use of the jump harness. When I heard that Sasha Cohen was quoted in IFS as saying she didn't know she could do off-ice weight training I was aghast. This is the same skater who was doing Pilates four years ago. Pilates isn't weight training but it does have it's advantages. The point is, IMO, today's coaches are still using yesterday's training techniques for tomorrow's jumps and jump combos. Not good.

Rgirl

 

[jesslily]

Right now Mao is in her best form. Next year or in four years she may be able to maintain her jumping ability while improve her artistry. She also could get worse. Young ladies change a lot each year. Look at Kimmie, she was 15 last year and much smaller than this year. I just watched her last year national tape. She skated better than now. So you never know what will be happened to Mao in the future.

As for there should be an exception for Mao, I don't know. If Mao gets the exception, how about Yu-Na Kim? I heard she is also very talented.

 

[R.D.]

The problem is, I think they should be the same for the ISU as they are for the IOC. That is, if you're old enough to compete at senior Worlds you should be old enough to compete at the Olympics.

Isn't it the same? I don't think Mao can compete at this year's Worlds, either. (I could be wrong.)

 

[Doggygirl]

Isn't it the same? I don't think Mao can compete at this year's Worlds, either. (I could be wrong.)

It's not the same. The IOC does not designate age eligibility. That is left to the governing bodies of the individual sports. So for anyone who doesn't like the age eligibility rules, contact the ISU.

DG

 

[Mathman]

I think what Red Dog means is that the ISU age rule is the same for the Olympics as it is for Worlds.

What is not consistent however, is the Grand Prix rules. Apparently it is the position of the ISU that it is harmful to your growth plates to practice 100 triple Axels a day to prepare for Four Continents, but it is not all that harmful to practice 100 triple Axels a day to prepare for Trophee Eric Bompard.

In spite of this, I do not have any quarrel with the rule one way or another. "A foolish consistency is the hobgobblin of small minds."

MM

 

[R.D.]

I think what Red Dog means is that the ISU age rule is the same for the Olympics as it is for Worlds.

You're right.

 

[Doggygirl]

I think what Red Dog means is that the ISU age rule is the same for the Olympics as it is for Worlds.

What is not consistent however, is the Grand Prix rules. Apparently it is the position of the ISU that it is harmful to your growth plates to practice 100 triple Axels a day to prepare for Four Continents, but it is not all that harmful to practice 100 triple Axels a day to prepare for Trophee Eric Bompard.

In spite of this, I do not have any quarrel with the rule one way or another. "A foolish consistency is the hobgobblin of small minds."

MM

It's apparently the same for Oly's, World's, and also comps like 4CC, Euros, etc.

MM, you crack me up!!

DG

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

You're right.

Well, you're wrong.

 

[attyfan]

IMO, if the age limit were changed for Mao, there should be provision for the Korean skater to go, also, since her federation relied on the age limit in not sending her to the Karl Schaefer to earn a place for herself at Torino.

 

[Mathman]

Joe, I am beginning to see the irony of this thread. For Tanith and Ben to go to the Olympics, all it took was a mere act of congress. Nothing to it.

For Mao, it would require a change in the ISU RULES!!!

MM

 

[hockeyfan228]

IMO, if the age limit were changed for Mao, there should be provision for the Korean skater to go, also, since her federation relied on the age limit in not sending her to the Karl Schaefer to earn a place for herself at Torino.

I agree. The ISU couldn't argue that they couldn't handle 31 skaters, because there's a provision that says if the host country hasn't qualified a skater for an event, they can send one, who will skate first. Since Italy qualified two skaters, the field is now set at 30, with the possibility that not all countries' Olympic Committees will allow those who qualified at Karl Schaeffer to skate to attend, due to additional criteria established by the individual Federations (placement at GP, Euros, 4C's, etc.).

 

[Engwaciriel]

Well, I didn't bother to read the whole tread, but the asnwer is definitely "no". You can't just change a rule inte he middle of the season. If a change of the rules should have been made, it should have been done so before the season started, so it applied to ALL skaters.

 

[Vash01]

Well, I didn't bother to read the whole tread, but the asnwer is definitely "no". You can't just change a rule inte he middle of the season. If a change of the rules should have been made, it should have been done so before the season started, so it applied to ALL skaters.

You took the words out of my mouth.

If they make an exception to one skater, there will be more exceptions and the rule will cease to exist. It is better to address the issue next season (too bad for Mao) and officially change the rule.

Vash

 

[chuckm]

I think it's unlikely that the rule will be changed to lower the age for ISU championships. Such a change would most likely benefit only the US and Japan, who are already dominant enough. As the majority of the federations are European, I don't see such a proposal being passed, as Mao will be age-eligible next season anyway.

 

[Linny]

Participation in GP series

Methinks that the age limit does not apply to the GP series because the ISU needs to encourage participation. Look at the final with only 5 men to see how participation is rilly needed.

I'm glad the age limit applies to Worlds, Olys, 4CC, etc. The USA Junior National Championships was televised in my area and it was very nice to see Junior skaters competing with Junior skaters.

How should the ISU encourage better stroking and edging before the big jumps, thus saving tender young bodies? How about using figure tests as part of the qualification to get into the big competitions? Not as part of the competition, mind you, not as a qualifying round - ugh - but just a simple proficiency test. If the skaters have to pass a proficiency test in figures before being admitted to the big competitions, they'd work on them.

Linny

 

[chuckm]

This wasn't the first time there were only 5 men in the GPF. None of the men who qualified (or were alternates) were ineligible for ISU championships. There were only 5 men because of injury (Lysacek, then Joubert), illness (Plushenko), and the delay in being notified (Weir).

I would rather not see underage skaters in the GP, because they will feel more compelled to do the multiple-revolution jumps and combinations to be competitive since their relative inexperience will keep their PCS scores on the low side.

Let's have UNIFORM age rules so there will be no more confusion and hurt feelings.

 

[mzheng]

I read in ISU, an ex-chairman of USFSA, (Morry Stillwell), posted that in each ISU congress meeting when the age rule was voted, JF always vote in favor of it....So they can't ask for the rule change now since they have a young skater.
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32024&page=2&pp=15

So after all Cinquanto did a smart thing by kicking the ball back to Japanese Federation court. Saying if Japanese Federation propose the revise of age rule the ISU commitee will disscus it.....Now I have to give him prop here, though he forgot to find the loophole (allowing underaged skater participant in ISU GPs but not ISU ChampionShip comps) in the rule that his commitee passed, but he maybe very well remembered how JF voted to this rule. After all he still has some brain.

 

[chuckm]

I read in ISU, an ex-chairman of USFSA, (Morry Stillwell), posted that in each ISU congress meeting when the age rule was voted, JF always vote in favor of it....So they can't ask for the rule change now since they have a young skater.

Of course they did! The rule was first brought up for a vote in 1996, the year 13-year-old Tara Lipinski skated at Worlds and 15-year-old Michelle Kwan won it!

It's different now that the shoe is on the other foot, isn't it!

 

[euterpe]

Lol!