Should there be an Exception for Mao?

[Doggygirl]

This is what I don't understand! A skater that is injured can get a bid to go to the Olympics even if they don't skate all year and by-pass everthing and everyone else. Then there is another skater that has proved herself and can do it, is on top of her game and can't go because of her age. Rules were changed before and I think they can be changed now. If Mao is the best in her country, then I think that the best should go to the Olympics.

IMO, here is the big difference in the situation with possible "byes" (i.e. for injury, etc.) v. the age rule and Mao.

The age rule is established by the ISU, and as far as I can tell from personal research and that of other posters, the age rule is only something that can be modified by a vote of the full ISU Congress, which meets after the season ends. There is nothing in the rules today that allows for an exception process - and those are the current rules in place that all Federations were operating by when the season began.

The method of determining the Oly team that a country sends is left to the individual Federations, so long as those fit within IOC rules (which as far as I can tell trump everything else) and the ISU rules (where the age limit comes into play). The USFSA has it's rules about Nationals, but also provides for exceptions for various reasons. That is a rule that I assume has been passed by proper process with the USFSA. (and other Federations have other rules for determining World / Oly team selection - i.e. the Japanese Federation apparently puts less emphasis on Nationals than the USFSA, and more emphasis on other events through the season for World team selection, which is their right to do under existing rules).

The citizenship requirements are an IOC rule - that's where Tanith's issue (and other's) lie.

Looks to me like the "rule tree" looks like this:

First: Does this team member assignment meet IOC rules? (in Tanith's case no, because of IOC citizenship requirements, unless it's fixed in time via the law change)
Second: Does this team member assignment meet ISU rules? (in Mao's case, no, because of the age rules)
Third: Does this team member meet USFSA rules? (based on currently possibilities, this might come into play for MK, or possibly someone else if injured, based on USFSA rules for how a bye could be granted.

When this thread originally started, I was ambivalent about age rules. But especially after reading Chuckm's post (possible ISU motivations for the age rule) along with other well put posts about how kids do the big jumps anyway (which I believe), I am inclined to root for doing away with the age rule when the next ISU congress rolls around. (not that I get to vote....but....)

I do stand by my original opinion that rules are rules, and when you start trying to circumvent existing rules in the middle of the game, trouble is invited, and fairness to all is compromised.

DG

 

[curious]

Should Shizuka,Miki and Fumie lose the spot they have worked so hard to get for YEARS on the team to accomodate the newcomer Mao just because she beat the best skater in the world Irina? Does anyone here think that's fair?

 

[Frau Muller]

Should Shizuka,Miki and Fumie lose the spot they have worked so hard to get for YEARS on the team to accomodate the newcomer Mao just because she beat the best skater in the world Irina? Does anyone here think that's fair?

YES! Just like Honda, who worked so hard, will most likely lose his spot on the Worlds team to Takahashi or Oda. Team spots aren't some sort of 'Cecil B. DeMille Lifetime Achievement Award,' as at the Oscars!!!! Neither are team spots some sort of 'Peoples Choice Award' (a-la Marshall's Challenge).

Tough Teriyaki!

 

[chuckm]

This is what I don't understand! A skater that is injured can get a bid to go to the Olympics even if they don't skate all year and by-pass everthing and everyone else. Then there is another skater that has proved herself and can do it, is on top of her game and can't go because of her age. Rules were changed before and I think they can be changed now. If Mao is the best in her country, then I think that the best should go to the Olympics.

Yes, rules can be changed, according to the process for doing so, and the JSF had years to try to get a rule change through the ISU Congress, but they didn't do anything about it. They gambled on getting a midseason change just because Mao won some medals in the GP/GPF and they miscalculated badly. The ISU rules do not allow for such a change, and there's nothing that can be done about it now.

Mao may be the best female skater in her country, but she is not the best ELIGIBLE skater in her country. Right now, Belbin and Agosto are the best ice dancers in the US, but if she doesn't get her citizenship, they are not eligible and can't go to Torino.

 

[Doggygirl]

Yes, rules can be changed, according to the process for doing so, and the JSF had years to try to get a rule change through the ISU Congress, but they didn't do anything about it. They gambled on getting a midseason change just because Mao won some medals in the GP/GPF and they miscalculated badly. The ISU rules do not allow for such a change, and there's nothing that can be done about it now.

.

I know I'm doing a bit of a repeat of a question I just inquired about in a (shortly!) previous post. Has anyone seen anything official that the Japanese Federation HAS requested an exception? Everything I've seen up to this point seems to indicate it's more of a fan / media thing as opposed to an official thing. But these things can change rapidly, and I'm interested to see what the official Federation's position is at this stage. Any official news anyone has seen?

Thanks,
DG

 

[millie]

Thanks Doggygirl for your explanation.

 

[Doggygirl]

Thanks Doggygirl for your explanation.

Hey Millie!! I think I'd call it a speculation rather than an explanation. I'm far from an expert on the rules, but based on everything I've researched myself + whatever others have researched and posted, that = the speculation I arrived at!!!

DG

 

[Mathman]

And, MM, your point is what? That, oooooo, Mao beat Irina...ooooo, she should skate at the Olys because she won the GPF......ooooo, that way big bad Irina won't win? Give me a break.

Huh? Do I have a point? Did I say that Mao should skate at the Olympics? Did I say anything about big bad Irina winning or losing? Why the sarcasm?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think this thread is the first ever to stay on target after umpteen pages. Do you realize no one mentioned Michelle even once in this thread? :agree: So I conclude it is a topic close to everyone's heart or mind or whatever.

My Conclusions about the Topic

I believe the discussions were very strong. A serious matter.

I believe the consensus is more nays than yeas.

The spirit of the Olympics and the 'best' is less important than the ISU rule.

Finally the concept of breaking a rule is possible but not now. Too late.

Irina, Shizuka, Sasha will be less threatened. Fumie and Miki will probably get to skate the Olys. Joannie, Carolina will be waiting for the aforementioned to melt down. And Michelle (there I said it) will miraculously skate and win the gold.

Am I correct?

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Am I correct?

IMHO, correct on everything except Fumie. Even without Mao, Japan is committed to sending Yukari Nakano (I can't say why because it's a spoiler, LOL.) If Miki repeats as national champion, that leaves Shizuka and Fumie to fight it out for the third spot.

MM

 

[soogar]

IMHO, correct on everything except Fumie. Even without Mao, Japan is committed to sending Yukari Nakano (I can't say why because it's a spoiler, LOL.) If Miki repeats as national champion, that leaves Shizuka and Fumie to fight it out for the third spot.

MM

Actually (unless something happened at Japanese Nationals), Yukari is not committed for the Games though she is in a good position in points. It seems what Suzie was saying on ESPN is not correct and the Japanese use points for all events (including their Nationals) and then the 3 with the highest points will go (excluding Mao). I imagine this will keep up until 4Cs.

I have a sinking feeling that all this competition for spots is going to exhaust the Japanese ladies (like the US gymnastics team). Too much pressure isn't going to lead to good Olympic performances.

 

[Mathman]

Actually (unless something happened at Japanese Nationals), Yukari is not committed for the Games though she is in a good position in points. It seems what Suzie was saying on ESPN is not correct and the Japanese use points for all events (including their Nationals) and then the 3 with the highest points will go (excluding Mao). I imagine this will keep up until 4Cs.

Thanks for the clarification, Soogar. I thought at the time that that explanation about medaling in the GP final was a little fishy.

 

[euterpe]

I would be shocked if Miki Ando repeated as Japanese Champion. She just barely beat Asada last year, and I think the JF wants Mao as Champion to bolster their argument that Mao should go to Torino.

Yes, Yes, I know---her being Japanese Champion is ireelevant, she is ineligible and that's that, but I still expect the JF to pull out all the stops and milk the drama all they can.

 

[soogar]

Thanks for the clarification, Soogar. I thought at the time that that explanation about medaling in the GP final was a little fishy.

Though the GP final is weighted very heavily. MINAM on FSU had a breakdown of the point system and there are lots of points awarded for a medal in the final. It puts Yukari in much better position than Shizuka even though Shiz was in harder GP events. I really feel for the Japanese ladies. I don't begrudge Mao's wins or her skating seniors, but her placements in GP events really rob points from the other ladies. I know that they should beat her, but my heart really breaks for Shiz who lost a placement by competing against Asada in TEB (even though Shiz was robbed IMO) and now she is in a deficit against Yukari who only faced off against Mao in the GP final. I don't really think it is a fair position to put the skaters in.

 

[mzheng]

It is ISU who created this whole mess.

If Mao is not eligible for Worlds and Olympics, why allow her compete in GP to beging with......

Let's see how may ilogical actions ISU could take.

To solve so called 'SLC cheating judging', they created CoP annonymous judge system, to allow more 'cheating' or iresponsible judgeing.

Mao is not age eligible for Worlds and Olympics, yet allow her competing in in senior GP.

Looks to me $peedy has his brain make of Tofu. (mm, is it OK bash $peedy?)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It is ISU who created this whole mess.

If Mao is not eligible for Worlds and Olympics, why allow her compete in GP to beging with......

Let's see how may ilogical actions ISU could take.

To solve so called 'SLC cheating judging', they created CoP annonymous judge system, to allow more 'cheating' or iresponsible judgeing.

Mao is not age eligible for Worlds and Olympics, yet allow her competing in in senior GP.

Looks to me $peedy has his brain make of Tofu. (mm, is it OK bash $peedy?)

Mzeng - Wow! and you did bring the thread back to topic I spoke to soon that it did not go off target but apparently, it got caught up in Japanese Nationals.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

I would be shocked if Miki Ando repeated as Japanese Champion. She just barely beat Asada last year, and I think the JF wants Mao as Champion to bolster their argument that Mao should go to Torino.

Yes, Yes, I know---her being Japanese Champion is ireelevant, she is ineligible and that's that, but I still expect the JF to pull out all the stops and milk the drama all they can.

I thought the Japanese federation had issued a statement that rules and rules and they would therefore not be mounting any type of challenge to try to get Asada into the Olympics...end of story?

Didn't the japanese federation give her a special dispensation when she was 11 to compete in the senior nationals? That' didn't change anything despite he (i think getting the bronze)

Ant

 

[chuckm]

I think it was the Japanese Olympic Committee that said they wouldn't do anything because only the ISU had jurisdiction as far as age eligibility rules were concerned. We keep hearing conflicting statements, but the bottom line is there's no way around the ISU rules, so Mao is not going to Torino.

However, that won't stop the Japanese media from continuing to wage a PR battle and keep Mao's name connected with the Olympics. At the very least, they want to plant doubt in the public perception of the OGM winner's legitimacy in the absence of their star.

So it would make sense if Mao was not only the GPF winner but also the Japanese Champion, because if Arakawa or Ando beats her, that would cast doubts on Mao's supremacy.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I still think the absence of Mao at the Olympics will be felt by skaters and fans of figure skating. It won't matter for the general public. Nor will it matter when the Oly champ's name is emblazoned in the book of records. Mao is out, and over and out. but

My Prediction

The postes on Golden Skate and other fs forums will be right there to say:

a) even if Mao was in the Olys she would not have beaten so and so; and

b) so and so won because Mao was not there.

Joe

 

[Frau Muller]

..... to plant doubt in the public perception of the OGM winner's legitimacy in the absence of their star.

So it would make sense if Mao was not only the GPF winner but also the Japanese Champion, because if Arakawa or Ando beats her, that would cast doubts on Mao's supremacy.

Don't worry -- I can guarantee you that doubt has already been planted. Heck, Christine Brennan may already be in Japan, preparing her next fluff piece on this very subject...maybe to be included in next weekend late ABC/ESPN telecast of the Grand Prix Finals? The 2006 Turin ladies figure skating championship has been renamed the Senior Masters Tournament.

When is Japanese Nationals? I recall that it usually happens around Christmas. It will be very interesting to follow developments there (yet another reason for Brennan to be there this weekend, cooking her brew). For the sake of the 'senior veterans' among the Japanese ladies, I hope that somebody -- anybody -- can beat the tiny tike. That would do a lot towards erasing doubts as we head into Turin. Somehow, though, I think that the tiny tike will prevail. That's when all h*** will break lose.