Skaters who improved their Skating Skills program component over time

[Anna K.]

If you want to learn more about the Skating Skills component, here is an old ISU documentary from +3 era which explains how you can recognize good skating. Unfortunately, I could not find a newer video about this component and even the old one is no more available on the ISU channel and has been uploaded by a fan who split it in seven 2-3 minutes long segments, so... It is as good as it gets, enjoy

Part 1: Skating skills overview (what to look at: balance, flow, sureness, speed, direction)

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Part 2: Balance

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Part 3: Flow

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Part 4: Sureness

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Part 5: Speed

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Part 6: Direction

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Part 7: conclusions

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Plushenko had skating skills but never really exhibited them until the IJS compelled him to. Compare his 2006 Olympics FS (https://youtu.be/UO84G_jFQoI?si=NKIz1RSTzImqBDiO) to his 2012 Euros FS and you’ll see more edge work, turns and general attention to the skating aspects - actual transitions (I didn’t even think he was capable of counters - 1:44, 1:54, 2:25) - that footwork was the best of his career with actual body movements and difficult turn series!(https://youtu.be/dBJtNXvyWbg?si=YrUQq3p2S-vX2X-v). I know I have an admitted hate-on for him but a lot of that stems from the fact that he WAS capable of performances and skating skills like EC2012 - but just rarely chose to actually exhibit it because he was fortunate enough to have generally technically meh competitors and no rivals save for Yagudin. He got 8.89 for SS in that FS including a couple 9’s … and that was one of the few instances where he actually showed/earned his SS scores, and is a night and day difference from his Olympic performances. Even things like the spins had way better speed positions and number of rotations. That was by far him at his best.

 

[Ares]

I think Boyang Jin has improved significantly under Orser in this department. His skating skills are still far from great but they don't strike me as severely lacking anymore.

 

[dorispulaski]

In dance, I am most looking for clean edges (no flying snow or wobbling ankles) to evaluate skating skills.

You could also look at raw speed, as indicated by pattern size, and how blurry the ads are as the skaters fly by them.

The old CD'S were a good .measure of this, because you could look at a young team and then look at the same team doing the same steps exactly some years later.

The same was true for compulsory figures.

It's unfortunately true that there are few videos of bad CD'S to be found any more.

Here's a 16 year old with great spins,
https://youtu.be/OwO542dGDH4?si=Ywk445KJ4Y2tT7-6

But not the blade control he shows here:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

 

[gkelly]

It's unfortunately true that there are few videos of bad CD'S to be found any more.

Well, if you search youtube for the name of the dance, you can find test-level skaters posting their tests (include the word "partnered" in your search if you don't want solos). Generally good enough to pass the test but not strong by competitive standards.

Here's a 16 year old with great spins,

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

m.youtube.com

Is this the wrong video?

 

[TontoK]

I know many of us like to think that Yuzuru Hanyu was born with outstanding skating skills, but I recall a Brian Orser interview in which he said they dedicated a lot of training time to skills so that he could close the gap with Patrick Chan.

This was, of course, early in the rivalry when Yuzu was emerging, but it matches the intent of the post. Even one of the very best "skaters' skater" ever had to work to improve skating skills. So, when I see young skaters with less than stellar skating skills, I try to remember that we have to give them time.

 

[Jontor]

I come to think of Alena Kostornaia. She made her debut at Russian Junior Nats 2017. She was nothing special and ended up 16th. All the skaters we would later know as the Russian B Team were ahead of her.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Then she changed coaches over the summer (to you all know who) and she was suddenly a completely different person. She made her Russian Senior Nats debut that same year 2017 and finished 3rd.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

What a difference a few months can do...

 

[yfan1]

I think Boyang Jin has improved significantly under Orser in this department. His skating skills are still far from great but they don't strike me as severely lacking anymore.

I think this is somewhat inaccurate because I wouldn't say his skating skills were 'severely lacking' after his second senior season.

For comparison:

2016 worlds: https://youtu.be/mGjMn1jKIw4?si=3ratnMPjsA7nSUmm&t=114

2017 worlds: https://youtu.be/ncKcFNEHbBE?si=sXZWVcyqxusHAVxA&t=147

2018 Olympics: https://youtu.be/kAuheBbatDI?si=qxYL9adwtljdCo3i&t=156

He's noticeably faster and crisper with the steps and turns between these three seasons.

At some point (I believe around 2020), he fixed his crossovers too, which really used to sometimes drag across the ice because he didn't pick up his foot properly.

Problem was that he stagnated for a long time between 2018 till his switch to Orser, whatever the reasons behind it. Even now, I think his quality of glide has improved significantly, but not necessarily things like precision in foot placement and effortlessness, and his edges aren't the deepest. So yeah, the mark doesn't deserve to be too high (8-8.5s are fine). Just I don't think his improvements all happened under Orser. The more noticeable ones in competition happened before the switch.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Plushenko had skating skills but never really exhibited them until the IJS compelled him to. Compare his 2006 Olympics FS (https://youtu.be/UO84G_jFQoI?si=NKIz1RSTzImqBDiO) to his 2012 Euros FS and you’ll see more edge work, turns and general attention to the skating aspects - actual transitions (I didn’t even think he was capable of counters - 1:44, 1:54, 2:25) - that footwork was the best of his career with actual body movements and difficult turn series!(https://youtu.be/dBJtNXvyWbg?si=YrUQq3p2S-vX2X-v).

His 2006 footwork sequence was more impressive (particularly in the SP) and that is the best ruleset the CoP ever had for footwork. It absolutely had "actual body movements" and it did have a "difficult turn series" too, with a rocker into twizzles.

Footwork is not supposed to be about a random, shapeless series of counters and rockers and (barf) loops. It's supposed to show dance quality and character and pattern and, certainly when the music calls for it, speed. The constant movement between steps and turns, quick changes of direction, sharp arm usage, and unexpected movements at high tempo while maintaining a circular shape, are so much more pleasing to watch (and far more in tune with that music than what people would be forced to do these days).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

His 2006 footwork sequence was more impressive (particularly in the SP) and that is the best ruleset the CoP ever had for footwork. It absolutely had "actual body movements" and it did have a "difficult turn series" too, with a rocker into twizzles.

Footwork is not supposed to be about a random, shapeless series of counters and rockers and (barf) loops. It's supposed to show dance quality and character and pattern and, certainly when the music calls for it, speed. The constant movement between steps and turns, quick changes of direction, sharp arm usage, and unexpected movements at high tempo while maintaining a circular shape, are so much more pleasing to watch (and far more in tune with that music than what people would be forced to do these days).

His 2006 footwork sequence was more impressive (particularly in the SP) and that is the best ruleset the CoP ever had for footwork. It absolutely had "actual body movements" and it did have a "difficult turn series" too, with a rocker into twizzles.

Footwork is not supposed to be about a random, shapeless series of counters and rockers and (barf) loops. It's supposed to show dance quality and character and pattern and, certainly when the music calls for it, speed. The constant movement between steps and turns, quick changes of direction, sharp arm usage, and unexpected movements at high tempo while maintaining a circular shape, are so much more pleasing to watch (and far more in tune with that music than what people would be forced to do these days).

Footwork sequences used to be a quick toe sequence down the ice with stiff upper bodies lasting not even 20 seconds. That’s not hard nor a showcase of the ability to turn, control changes of edge, exhibit deep edges. They usually showed musicality sure but they were more of a checkmark.

Lol kudos to Plushenko for his “sharp arm movements” - ie flailing. Ooooo and he did a whole rocker and twizzle (in a footwork sequence with actual step/turn requirements to get levels). Even though he had basically no difficult choreo or turns outside of that in his 2006 programs. Nancy Pelosi clap for Plushenko’s rocker and twizzle. Iconic, legendary rocker and twizzle. They don’t make footwork sequences like that anymore.

It’s not up to you to determine what is pleasing to watch or what is difficult. Otherwise the ISU would have listened to you. You are entitled to your opinions about footwork though. No matter how (quite literally) dated they may be.

 

[gkelly]

Footwork is not supposed to be about a random, shapeless series of counters and rockers and (barf) loops. It's supposed to show dance quality and character and pattern and, certainly when the music calls for it, speed.

It's supposed to show both.

Unless you're making up your own definition of what step sequences are supposed to be about.

In 6.0 days it was required to show a distinct straight-line, circular, or serpentine pattern in the step sequences. It was therefore common for skater executing straight-line patterns to avoid deep edges in order to stay close to the straight-line axis. Circular and serpentine patterns were more likely to include deep edges, but often only in one direction (at time, in serpentine).

Early IJS rules explicitly required skaters to execute difficult turns in order to earn higher levels. They did also reward "steps" (including choctaws and mohawks as well as toe steps and other moves that involved changing from one foot to another). Later IJS stopped explicitly rewarding those things, stopped insisting on clearly shaped patterns in order to encourage deeper edges, and requiring more edge work/turns for higher levels.

"Pattern" now means filling the ice surface and showing travel in a variety of directions. That's what these sequences are now supposed to reward. Sticking to a straight line is explicitly not what they are now "supposed" to be about.

In developing IJS, the ISU made a conscious choice to emphasize edge work and difficult turns in step sequences because they weren't often seeing them elsewhere in the programs and felt that those had declined since the elimination of school figures. They wanted to reward them.

Thus, step sequences are now explicitly supposed to be about about deep edges, difficult turns, turns in both directions, full body movement, AND creativity, expression of the music, ability to change speed, and a few other skills that had been rewarded as level features or GOE bullets over the years. Most of those things would have been rewarded if present in 6.0 step sequences, but skaters often took the easier way out of focusing on moving their feet quickly without many other skills. Which could be musical, creative, and exciting to watch but were not the only thing that step sequences were "supposed to" be about.

Step sequences also now allow pretty much any skills that aren't multirevolution jumps or extended spins in place . . . now including knee slides, backflips, etc.

 

[yfan1]

It's supposed to show dance quality and character and pattern and, certainly when the music calls for it, speed. The constant movement between steps and turns, quick changes of direction, sharp arm usage, and unexpected movements at high tempo while maintaining a circular shape, are so much more pleasing to watch (and far more in tune with that music than what people would be forced to do these days).

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

Where here are you seeing dance quality, unexpected movements, and being attuned with the music that is more pleasing to watch than the 2012 steps that were linked?

I'd classify the entire step sequence as an 'unexpected movement', if we're being quite so loose with the definition.

 

[gkelly]

Here's a brief explanation of what judges were looking for in step sequences 30 years ago:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[Ares]

...

 

[NanaPat]

Spours makes it into the free, despite a singled axel and apparently carrying some injury that makes her not feel her left leg. Atta girl. I loved watching her today.

wrong thread?

 

[Blades of Passion]

It's supposed to show both.

Step sequences for many years now HAVEN'T "shown both", and NO they were never meant to be monstrosities that go on endlessly and showcase little/no purpose in the movement. That's only what they became after years of poorly formulated rule changes that piled on clunky requirements. The frog in increasingly boiling water. Your superficial history regurgitation is unhelpful and leaves out the most important details. I am intimately aware of what the exact rules have been throughout every iteration.

Footwork sequences used to be a quick toe sequence down the ice with stiff upper bodies lasting not even 20 seconds. That’s not hard nor a showcase of the ability to turn, control changes of edge, exhibit deep edges.

That's absolutely not what footwork sequences were in 2006 and your statement of "lasting not even 20 seconds" shows a total disregard for the purpose that a fast footwork sequence is supposed to serve in a program and the difficulty of performing a sequence like that.

Toe steps and other rhythmic movements have difficulty to them. It's an entire skillset that has been lost in current skating. As has the ability to move the feet quickly, with characterful purpose and energy.

The ability to "change edge and exhibit deep edges" isn't even specifically rewarded right now in footwork. Someone could do the most beautifully controlled and deepest edgework possible in their footwork sequence and yet only get a level 1 on it. People like Gary Beacom had far better skating skills than what is seen in programs these days, without needing to perform a "difficult turn cluster". There's much more to skating skill than rockers and counters crammed together or putting every prescribed "difficult turn" in the book into a sequence - that specific thing is simply a fabricated rule and it's not something that takes real mastery to execute. It's also something that could be included anywhere else in a program; it shouldn't be a requirement for a footwork sequence.

Lol kudos to Plushenko for his “sharp arm movements” - ie flailing.

This is hardly mere flailing, and why is it that so many other people who tried to perform footwork in this style failed to make as evocative? Oh right, because it takes actual talent to do this. Anyone can do counter turns if they have a decent level of skating ability. Far less people are able to move with verve and abandon and command of the stage and their choreo.

The arm movements have definite shapes and meaningful beats in this sequence, there are fast changes of direction, constant changes of edge and feet, constant changes between steps and turns, intricate movement of the leg sweeping down to the ice, and full body involvement that takes a lot of energy. Importantly, it definitely interprets the music. It's a very worthy sequence, and more effective than most seen these days, as are many others from that era and earlier.

It’s not up to you to determine what is pleasing to watch or what is difficult.

Yes it is. That's also what every judge is supposed to be doing.

 

[dorispulaski]

....


Is this the wrong video?

It was. It was supposed to be Stephane Lambiel's Red Cat program.

I have fixed the original post. Thank you.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Step sequences for many years now HAVEN'T "shown both", and NO they were never meant to be monstrosities that go on endlessly and showcase little/no purpose in the movement. That's only what they became after years of poorly formulated rule changes that piled on clunky requirements. The frog in increasingly boiling water. Your superficial history regurgitation is unhelpful and leaves out the most important details. I am intimately aware of what the exact rules have been throughout every iteration.


That's absolutely not what footwork sequences were in 2006 and your statement of "lasting not even 20 seconds" shows a total disregard for the purpose that a fast footwork sequence is supposed to serve in a program and the difficulty of performing a sequence like that.

Toe steps and other rhythmic movements have difficulty to them. It's an entire skillset that has been lost in current skating. As has the ability to move the feet quickly, with characterful purpose and energy.

The ability to "change edge and exhibit deep edges" isn't even specifically rewarded right now in footwork. Someone could do the most beautifully controlled and deepest edgework possible in their footwork sequence and yet only get a level 1 on it. People like Gary Beacom had far better skating skills than what is seen in programs these days, without needing to perform a "difficult turn cluster". There's much more to skating skill than rockers and counters crammed together or putting every prescribed "difficult turn" in the book into a sequence - that specific thing is simply a fabricated rule and it's not something that takes real mastery to execute. It's also something that could be included anywhere else in a program; it shouldn't be a requirement for a footwork sequence.


This is hardly mere flailing, and why is it that so many other people who tried to perform footwork in this style failed to make as evocative? Oh right, because it takes actual talent to do this. Anyone can do counter turns if they have a decent level of skating ability. Far less people are able to move with verve and abandon and command of the stage and their choreo.

The arm movements have definite shapes and meaningful beats in this sequence, there are fast changes of direction, constant changes of edge and feet, constant changes between steps and turns, intricate movement of the leg sweeping down to the ice, and full body involvement that takes a lot of energy. Importantly, it definitely interprets the music. It's a very worthy sequence, and more effective than most seen these days, as are many others from that era and earlier.


Yes it is. That's also what every judge is supposed to be doing.

Lol that footwork sequence doesn’t even cover a full circle of the ice. I will say it does have excellent musicality and it is difficult to match movements to the music but changes of edge lmao - it’s easy to change edge and direction when there isn’t any depth of edge. His arms and terrible posture/hunch are awkward and there’s NO extension (lol “shapes”) or as mentioned any deep edges. It does take talent (never said it didn’t) and it’s exciting (his footworks are the only exciting or interesting or difficult choreo in that program because it’s just about the jumps everywhere outside of the footwork) but it’s a flurry of activity and there’s no refinement or fluidity or nuance. Everything is standing up and he doesnt have any levels to his body position. Full body involvement? Hah you need to up your standards. I know you’re biased as a Plu diehard (totally your prerogative) but at least be more balanced and critical in your assessment instead of just blindly extolling the virtues of anything he throws out there.

I mean, I pointed out how he has no choreo or steps to start the program and you twisted it as some sort of intentional “build”.

I’m sure the double flip after his footwork is “a beautifully deliberate show of vulnerability that is a subtle harkening back to the days of intentional double jumps, which serves to balance out the quads and triples he does so magnificently and in truth should earn additional interpretation marks for his mastery and program construction… his doubled jumps are more effective than most popped or doubled jumps we see these days!”

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes it is. That's also what every judge is supposed to be doing.

Sorry, let me rephrase that. It doesn't matter to the skaters, or to us, if YOU find something to be difficult or pleasing to watch. It only matters if the judges do.

 

[Mathman]

It was. It was supposed to be Stephane Lamb helps Red Cat program.

He went from a cat to a zebra.