Skating as an acrobatic/contorionist event

[Zuranthium]

OMG...Sean!

You just used Renee's Oscar clip quote. LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!



~Z:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I really don't understand why posters do not know exactly what flexibility is.
Another term is limberness and a must in acrobatics.

I see it in ALL sports whether it's Boxing or Ballroom Dance. It's very obvious in Ski Jump. duh.

In Henie's day we called skating as Contents of Program and Manner of Performance. Nothing about ART. The Whole Package was where one would put this overextended leg up on high in the sky, depending on whether is was from muscle or held up by a hand.

Even in today's CoP, I am not sure the term fliexibility is mentioned since it has nothing to do with the Technical. I believe a definition of a layback just says to spin while bending at the wait.

Since for some fans (and judges) are overwhelmed with it, what exactly would you give a perfect spiral in the GoEs as opposed to a perfect Charlotte spiral in the GoEs? I would give them both a +3'

I strongly suspect that those who are more apt to be sedentary would think that limberness is the ultimate because they don't have any. Nothing wrong with that but I think all those skaters are flexible and li mber one way or another. No big deal for me.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

The CoP does mention flexibility in the technical portion of the rules.

In the requirements for getting a higher level for spins, a "difficult" variation (contrasted with a "simple" variation) is, by definition, "a movement of the body part, leg, arm, hand or head which requires more physical strength or flexibility."

So you must exhibit extra "strength and flexibility" if you want to get a level three or a level four.

True, all athletes are strong and all athletes are flexible. Some are stronger and more flexible than others, and the CoP rewards them for it.

(BTW, the corresponding language for spirals goes like this: a movement or position is "difficult" if it "affects the core body and balance.")

 

[morninglight]

I feel that it would be nice if ladies can choose to do two foot step sequences, rather than one step sequence and one spiral sequence so that the skaters who are less flexible could choose to do footwork instead. I would enjoy seeing more footwork in ladies.

 

[Mathman]

The times...they are a-changin'

Here is my 2 cents on this question (not that anyone asked ) I think figure skating is merely following a general societal trend. We don't want our daughters to be beautiful but languid princesses any more. We want them to be robust world-beaters. As Joe mentioned in the following quote, the only aspect of figure skating that really sets it apart from other athletic and artistic endeavors is gliding along on an edge looking pretty.

There is nothing in figure skating except the glide on the ice that is original art form. I have spoken.

I quite agree. Let there be light.

But girls nowadays say phooey on that. They want to go higher, faster, stronger, triple Axels, quads, screwy pretzel-shaped spins and bizarre contortionist spirals that no one else can do.

I don't think the CoP caused this attitude. But I do think that the CoP, perhaps reluctantly, reflects and encourages it.

 

[Mathman]

(Sorry for the double post, LOL.)

It is instructive to look at what the CoP actually says about "flexibility." For instance, this seems to be the main criterion for awarding GOEs on spirals:

For a 0 GOE on the spiral sequence, the skater must demonstrate "adequate extention and flexibility."

For a +1 GOE, it is "good flexibility and body line."

For a +2 GOE, "very good flexibility and body line."

For +3, "excellent flexibility and body line."

So I would say there is no question but that the ISU judging system encourages and rewards these extreme contortionist positions -- unless that compromises the "body line." (?)

As for whether a well-done Charlotte, for instance, is more highly rated than a spiral in standard arabesque position, I would say, yes, because the Charlotte position "affects the body core and balance." (?)

 

[doubleaxel]

(Sorry for the double post, LOL.)

It is instructive to look at what the CoP actually says about "flexibility." For instance, this seems to be the main criterion for awarding GOEs on spirals:

For a 0 GOE on the spiral sequence, the skater must demonstrate "adequate extention and flexibility."

For a +1 GOE, it is "good flexibility and body line."

For a +2 GOE, "very good flexibility and body line."

For +3, "excellent flexibility and body line."

So I would say there is no question but that the ISU judging system encourages and rewards these extreme contortionist positions -- unless that compromises the "body line." (?)

As for whether a well-done Charlotte, for instance, is more highly rated than a spiral in standard arabesque position, I would say, yes, because the Charlotte position "affects the body core and balance." (?)

Mathman, where do you get this information? I would appreciate it if you don't mind sharing the link. I'm really interested in the way CoP views things.

 

[Mathman]

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-168551-185769-65184-0-file,00.pdf

(page 7)

There is also a lot of good stuff here:

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-183415-200633-121139-0-file,00.pdf

 

[SeaniBu]

In Henie's day we called skating as Contents of Program and Manner of Performance. Nothing about ART.

OK wavelength thing again I must be off because "Contents of Program and Manner of Performance" are the act of an artist creating to me. Just the word "performance" says "has art"JMO

I watched Shizuka's Ina tonight(the whole spiral "sequence" a few times) and how effortless and soft the motion was.... I am about to go off....... but it is something "of the beholder" I guess, so ..there are things I don't like about FS and live with it - but not as an "issue." I just hope that it is not an issue for anyone else.
:yes:

 

[Ladskater]

With the increasing numbers of younger skaters doing more flexible moves skating is evolving as it always has. However, do you think skating will be enhanced by becoming more acrobatic/contorionistic in nature, or do you think it will have a negative impact on classic skating consisting of elegance and deep edges with more emphasis on skating?

My second question is: from a safety issue, do you think there should be a limit on giving value or credit to certain moves that obviously places a skater at high risk for injury later in life or even possibly earlier? For instance, extreme back extension where the back is completely folded in half with very little space between the two halves of the back.

First of all not every skater has the flexibility of a Sasha Cohen or a Shawn Sawyer so figure skating as a whole could not evolve into such an event. Second figure skating is about edges and control. The emphasis is always on deep edges and stroking. The rest is "icing on the cake." Naturally, gifted skaters such as Shawn Sawyer and Sasha Cohen are going to take advantage of their flexibility and score higher on some of the moves in the field.

I hope this in part answers your question.

 

[kappa_1]

First of all not every skater has the flexibility of a Sasha Cohen or a Shawn Sawyer so figure skating as a whole could not evolve into such an event. Second figure skating is about edges and control. The emphasis is always on deep edges and stroking. The rest is "icing on the cake." Naturally, gifted skaters such as Shawn Sawyer and Sasha Cohen are going to take advantage of their flexibility and score higher on some of the moves in the field.

I hope this in part answers your question.

Eloquently put. I agree.

 

[antmanb]

(Sorry for the double post, LOL.)

It is instructive to look at what the CoP actually says about "flexibility." For instance, this seems to be the main criterion for awarding GOEs on spirals:

For a 0 GOE on the spiral sequence, the skater must demonstrate "adequate extention and flexibility."

For a +1 GOE, it is "good flexibility and body line."

For a +2 GOE, "very good flexibility and body line."

For +3, "excellent flexibility and body line."

So I would say there is no question but that the ISU judging system encourages and rewards these extreme contortionist positions -- unless that compromises the "body line." (?)

As for whether a well-done Charlotte, for instance, is more highly rated than a spiral in standard arabesque position, I would say, yes, because the Charlotte position "affects the body core and balance." (?)

Sorry MM i'm being lazy and notlooking up the list of GOE enhancers...is positioning the noly thing that they mention? Does it not say anything about depth of edge, power, control, speed across the ice, minimal or no connecting steps between the spirals as GOE plus points? If they're not then i can only be saddened that the true nature of the sprial sequence - what the foot and blade that actually connect with the ice is doing - seem to be lacking...which is a real shame and makes a mockery of the moves in the field test where power and edge control are pushed as the most desirable aspects which extension coming in as important and flexibilty and pretzel like body/free legs not mentioned or rewarded at all.

Ant

 

[Mathman]

Sorry MM I'm being lazy and not looking up the list of GOE enhancers...is positioning the only thing that they mention? Does it not say anything about depth of edge, power, control, speed across the ice, minimal or no connecting steps between the spirals as GOE plus points?

The particular document that I found (I think it's old) was rather vague and general. Maybe more details are spelled out elsewhere. Or maybe they just assume that judges know what a good spiral is.

Here is the entire entry for +3 GOE on a spiral sequence:

"(Spiral) sequence is superior in all phases of execution, highlights the skater's skating ability and is an integral part of the content of the program.

-- spiral position held more than 70% of the time

-- Excellent flexibility and body line.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

WOW. I went to sleep last night thinking I made my statement in defense of beautiful skating without contortionism.

So figure skating has what every sport has also. Surprise! and Praise to be. An athlete without flexibility would be a sorry sight. OK. how is it judged? If it is in the Technical it can only be part of the GoEs. I insist it has nothing do with touching the ice which is edging.

Apparently, in this Forum it is never a factor in judging Men, Pairs and Dance all of which must have flexibility. At least I've never read that Tanith and Ben are flexible skaters. But they are!!! And those Pair teams with the death spiral do not need flexibility??? and the strength needed????

It's only in Ladies that this balletic muscle building is a factor. At least that is the only discussion of flexibility that I read.

Excessive use of flexibility is a characteristic of Acrobatic Dancing. It can be used for affect and it certainly does in figure skating. So figure skating is also part acrobatic dancing. No surprise, what is original in figure skating???

So, I concede and say Bring on the Highest Spirals over the head and grab your skates so that a bielman is a work of art, and let's never use the word acrobatic.


Contortionism is part of a Circus side show. I think figure skating is headed in that direction under the guise of 'upping the level''

Joe

 

[SeaniBu]

So figure skating is also part acrobatic dancing. No surprise, what is original in figure skating???

Other than skating? How about combining the types of athleticism and dance in to a forum of sport called "Figure Skating." It in it's self is original but aspects aren't - duh? - What is? Baseball form Cricket, American football from rugby, shoot, jumping into the water evolved into diving. There are not many things in this world that are not "influenced" or derived from other "things."

So, I concede and say Bring on the Highest Spirals over the head and grab your skates so that a bielman is a work of art, and let's never use the word acrobatic.

Why, to please the few that have their own ideas of what something should be, to try and make it ridiculous? Why not just accept it for what it is? Another influence incorporated into FS. A part of FS, hence is FS. Again, it has been a part for a long time.

Contortionism is part of a Circus side show. I think figure skating is headed in that direction under the guise of 'upping the level''

It is also a part of "dance forms" no matter how "circus" is tried to be connected, that is a reach of the pessimistic and forcing negative aspects be associated with something others find beautiful / impressive / acceptable / athletically more challenging....

I do see it as an advantage to some and others (including my favorite) will not have the capability to ...

For a 0 GOE on the spiral sequence, the skater must demonstrate "adequate extention and flexibility."

For a +1 GOE, it is "good flexibility and body line."

For a +2 GOE, "very good flexibility and body line."

For +3, "excellent flexibility and body line."

So I would say there is no question but that the ISU judging system encourages and rewards these extreme contortionist positions -- unless that compromises the "body line." (?)

Oh well, it doesn't meen I shouldn't like it because my Favorite will possibly never see a +2 there.

First of all not every skater has the flexibility of a Sasha Cohen or a Shawn Sawyer so figure skating as a whole could not evolve into such an event. Second figure skating is about edges and control. The emphasis is always on deep edges and stroking. The rest is "icing on the cake." Naturally, gifted skaters such as Shawn Sawyer and Sasha Cohen are going to take advantage of their flexibility and score higher on some of the moves in the field.

:agree:

So what is anyone worried about? Don't like one element, so be it. Some of the Quads are pretty poor lately but they are still going to do them. Does that make FS a Xgame. Headed in that direction? No, it just means it is evolving in it's difficulty levels I think the "compromise of body line" is almost a fail safe to ensure it doesn't go overboard - although it seems some already have in thinking FS already has.

 

[Mathman]

I think figure skating is headed in that direction (more contortionism) under the guise of "upping the level.''

I do not see how anyone can disagree with this statement. It's right there in the rules. To get a higher technical level in spins and spirals you have to do one or more "difficult positions," which are defined as positions requiring extraordinary "strength and flexibility" and which affect changes in the "balance of the body core."

Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, I guess that's what we are arguing about. Different people have different opinions. Is Arakawa's unassisted I-spiral a circus-like trick or is it beautiful skating?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I do not see how anyone can disagree with this statement. It's right there in the rules. To get a higher technical level in spins and spirals you have to do one or more "difficult positions," which are defined as positions requiring extraordinary "strength and flexibility" and which affect changes in the "balance of the body core."

Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, I guess that's what we are arguing about. Different people have different opinions. Is Arakawa's unassisted I-spiral a circus-like trick or is it beautiful skating?

That's why I am a fan of Sonia Bianchetti. The Sport is changing and not to the good. JMO However, if we reach the point of total circus elements, be prepared to defend them. And don't use the word ballet, pleeeeeze.

Arakawa's spiral was a Y Spiral when she let her hand go. Very prominent in bravura roles in ballet. I liked it in Turandot, but I would never like it in Giselle.

Any view on Men and flexibility or is just concerned with Ladies' spirals or spiral like tricks?

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

For +3, "excellent flexibility and body line."

and For a bonus award if the flexible leg wraps around a head while the skater is changing edges - not for beauty but for showing strengh.

 

[Mathman]

Just off the top of my head, I would say that Stephane Lambiel and Johnny Weir exhibit a lot of flexibility and originality on their spins, and that Rohene Ward and Shawn Sawyer are capable of doing some quite bendy moves-in-the-field.

An example of a skater with limited flexibility would be Brian Boitano, IMHO.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

So what is anyone worried about? Don't like one element, so be it. Some of the Quads are pretty poor lately but they are still going to do them. Does that make FS a Xgame. Headed in that direction? No, it just means it is evolving in it's difficulty levels I think the "compromise of body line" is almost a fail safe to ensure it doesn't go overboard - although it seems some already have in thinking FS already has.

Sean The wave lengths are a matter of taste like brewing tea. I understand where you are coming from. It's ok. But I am not with you. But like you, I have always liked Suguri, but she's out of the game with these new young gals with legs on high

As for Quads, bring on the Quints. That's SPORT!!! Everyone is equal and only a competition will say who is the best. :agree:

Joe.