Skating Too Tough To Create Stars?

[gkelly]

This is a valid point... And no, I cannot say if another skater has ridden on a Macy's float...my point centered on the idea that instead of asking the current US champ or even the current us & world champ to ride on the float,

There is not current US & world champ in the ladies' division and hasn't been for some time. Does that mean that "skating" is dying, or that the US ladies can't dominate the sport the way they used to because skating is thriving internationally and there is deeper competition when they get to Worlds?

Or, perhaps, somewhere in between.

Emily Hughes was invited because of her name recognition from 2006 Olympics.

As to who assigns float riders - this is typically done by the New York Parade Company whose responsiblity is to match sponsored floats with celebrities, athletes, etc.

OK. It is true that Emily's name recognition is based on her accomplishments from several years ago and from her sister's accomplishments a few years before that.

But her name recognition in New York is enhanced by the fact that she grew up in a nearby suburb and her family has cultivated relationships with the New York-based media.

Who do you think they would have asked in 2001, when skating was enjoying more popularity with the American public? My guess would be local up-and-comer Sarah Hughes, whose name recognition was probably less at the time outside the NY area although she did already have a world medal.

If we were talking about a 2009 parade based in LA, it's more likely they'd have asked Michelle Kwan (if she were still living nearby) or Sasha Cohen, whose accomplishments and name recognition are greater but equally out of date, or Mirai Nagasu or Caroline Zhang, who don't have the name recognition for various reasons but might have more after this year's Nationals (perceived as "Olympic trials" for the uninitiated).

Or maybe Evan Lysacek? What kind of name recognition does he have with the general public?

 

[DragonPhoenix]

Other than Japan where skating is extensively covered by the major media outlets, are these skaters really household names? I question that. I suspect most people in most countries could not name their own national champion and could not name the current world champions. When I go to ISU events, the major media outlets (other than the host boradcaster) are mainly Japanese. Given the number of national media outlets in the U.S. and Canada, those that occassional cover skating are a handful.

The current stars are only household names in the homes of rabid skating fans. And that is the problem.

Other than Japan ? YuNa is a superstar in South Korea. She is absolutely a household name there.

A few years ago I remember seeing a fluff piece showing Joubert on the cover of French magazines.

About the same time period I remember seeing fans at the Grand Prix Final in China practically falling out of their seats and onto the ice to get Plushenko's signature.

Lambiel is very popular and was featured in a Japanese commercial.

As was pointed out earlier in this thread

Isn't it just that they are not from America or Europe where the article and many posters to this thread seem to be coming from? Michelle Kwan was not a household name in Japan, either.

In other words, some of this depends on one's perspective, and where one is in the world.

If we are talking about the U.S. only , then it is another story.

 

[Mathman]

If we were talking about a 2009 parade based in LA, it's more likely they'd have asked Michelle Kwan (if she were still living nearby) or Sasha Cohen...Or maybe Evan Lysacek?

Actually, when they wanted a skater for the 2009 Rose Bowl Parade they went with Tillman (chosen for his good looks as well as his skating ability.)

http://www.animaltalk.us/images/uploads/b78446552z120081223113740000gjtfo8db1-lg.jpg

Edited to add: He has one fan anyway -- the little girl in pink.

 

[Olympia]

Currently, I think Kim is the most famous person of any kind in Korea. When she competes in a Grand Prix event, one of the Korean papers published in the U.S. for Korean speakers puts her on the front page. (A friend shows it to me. I'm jealous.) My city's paper might mention the results of a skating event in 2 lines, in 10-point type at the bottom of a column in the sports section--maybe. And then there's the fact that many televised skating events scheduled in the TV program will have a teensy sentence after the description, saying "Time approximate after basketball" (or football, or whatever other really important sport goes into overtime). So they chip off time from the skating, until maybe you see just 45 minutes of skating instead of two hours. I've often thought that skating would truly have become important in this country when a football game is scheduled at a "time approximate after skating."

I just needed to whine.

But that's not so awful. A lot of great sports with great athletes only get noticed once every four years: track and field or skiing are notable examples. America is a team-sports-and-golf country. But "minor" sports like ours still manage to field a good roster of competitors most of the time, and we fans have plenty to watch.

 

[dorispulaski]

One other reason Emily was in the parade--no one had to pay for a plane ticket & hotel expenses to get Emily to NY. And I would be surprised if the parade organizers paid her an appearance fee, either, although it's possible.

If they had asked Plush to appear on a float, they would have had plane tickets to Russia (possibly for an entourage as well), rooms and meals (possibly for an entourage as well) and whatever Plush's current appearance fees are.

And at that, the kiddies would rather see Scooby Doo or Sponge Bob Square Pants and have no clue who Plush is.

So of course, they will not ask Plush to appear in the Macy's Parade, which is a department store Santa Claus parade on the grand scale, even in NYC, even with TV revenues involved. The main purpose of this parade is to keep the kids out of the kitchen while Thanksgiving dinner is being prepared, to advertise Macy's, and to let some of the TV morning folk have Thanksgiving at home.

If the Macy's parade organizers had extra money to spend, I suspect they will spend the money on another balloon, not on appearances by well known skaters.

 

[evangeline]

One other reason Emily was in the parade--no one had to pay for a plane ticket & hotel expenses to get Emily to NY. And I would be surprised if the parade organizers paid her an appearance fee, either, although it's possible.

If they had asked Plush to appear on a float, they would have had plane tickets to Russia (possibly for an entourage as well), rooms and meals (possibly for an entourage as well) and whatever Plush's current appearance fees are.

And at that, the kiddies would rather see Scooby Doo or Sponge Bob Square Pants and have no clue who Plush is.

Also, would Plushenko (or Yu-Na, or any top skater, really) even bother to take such an offer?

 

[janetfan]

Also, would Plushenko (or Yu-Na, or any top skater, really) even bother to take such an offer?

Why would Macy's want Plushy or Yuna for a Thanksgiving parade in NYC :scratch:

Despite the Sarah and Emily detractors they are New York girls and what is wrong with Emily or Sarah appearing in a local Holiday parade?

Wouldn't Emily's appearance in the parade give skating a little exposure? Doesn't the NY Macy Parade still get National TV coverage?

Even a little publicity for skating is better than nothing.........to an American public who mostly thinks about skating only in Olympic years.

ETA: If we had had a National Mullet Day Parade in America I could see Plushy being invited. Heck, he could even be the Grand Master because longevity must be considered.

 

[gkelly]

Or what if, for example, they had invited someone like Samantha Cesario, a potential up-and-coming local NY skater with no name recognition among the general public?

The purpose of the float being to showcase "skating" in the generic sense, not a skating star.

Would that indicate anything at all about the health of the sport?

 

[Mathman]

Or what if, for example, they had invited someone like Samantha Cesario, a potential up-and-coming local NY skater with no name recognition among the general public?

The purpose of the float being to showcase "skating" in the generic sense, not a skating star.

Would that indicate anything at all about the health of the sport?

That would show that skating is alive and well in the Big Apple. Plus, Samantha Cesario would be thrilled to pieces, while Emily Hughes, been there, done that.

 

[fairly4]

figure skating is a sport Only to rabid figure skating fans--otherwise it is ashow.

It is a sport that is difference-- it titles aren't based quantifiable and fair-- but prejudical, political, biased and unfair--
the tes in the sport is good-what is bad is what was bad under 6.0's the goes the plus and minuses --on each jump , now each item.

in order to make it more quantifiable in the jump score for example a 50 would be a perfect quad salchow- with no ur's, no wrong edge nothing wrong with it, everything perfect--nice height, nice speed, nice flow, perfect takeoff and landing no need to add pluses andminues
for example the fall on the quad would be 40 points. lets say a fall onthat same quad with ur would be worth 35 points--that is taken in the pcs scores in account. not separately.

they should do replays or at least have the public vote 1/3 countin on the placements with the judges/ callers scores taking 2/3 count.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

I understand that Emily is a local girl with media ties, so that makes sense to have her on the float... my only point was that for a national parade with national exposure durning an olympic year on the olympic broadcaster it might be good for the sport to have featured the ladies national champ or the men's national & world champ on the darn float. Granted, training schedules might've prevented that from happening... it was just an observation of my impression.

But any exposure is better than none I guess...

 

[623]

It is a sport that is difference-- it titles aren't based quantifiable and fair-- but prejudical, political, biased and unfair--
the tes in the sport is good-what is bad is what was bad under 6.0's the goes the plus and minuses --on each jump , now each item.

in order to make it more quantifiable in the jump score for example a 50 would be a perfect quad salchow- with no ur's, no wrong edge nothing wrong with it, everything perfect--nice height, nice speed, nice flow, perfect takeoff and landing no need to add pluses andminues
for example the fall on the quad would be 40 points. lets say a fall onthat same quad with ur would be worth 35 points--that is taken in the pcs scores in account. not separately.

Yeah, but what is a perfect jump? Have you ever seen anyone doing a perfect jump? Many jumps are less than perfect, but they are landed and fully rotated. Where do they fit into your idea? How much points would you give for them? That is why we need judges who determine whether the jump is very good or just decent and give scores based on their opinion. And then we take an average of those scores. It is not a perfect system, but I cannot think of a better one.

they should do replays or at least have the public vote 1/3 countin on the placements with the judges/ callers scores taking 2/3 count.

I honestly hope that you were joking. Public vote? Where? In the arena? How would this make skating more objective? If a contender was American and the event was held in the USA how do you think the majority of the public would vote?

 

[Mathman]

... the apparently conscious and deliberate decision to make sure that bad spins at a higher level get more points than perfect spins at a lower level means that skaters will go for higher levels, no matter how ugly or sloppy....

Although...I suppose there is another way to look at it, too. Higher, faster, stronger. If you skate a clean program, maybe that means your program wasn't hard enough.

Like in pole vaulting. You clear 18 feet. Good. Then you clear 19 feet. Good. Then you try 20 feet. Even if you are the last person still in the competition, the audience expects you to keep on going until you miss.

You don't win a poll vaulting contest by clearing 18 feet three times with perfect form.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The fear of some sportspeople and sportswriters calling Figure Skating a non-sport has already happened several times and before 2006. There's something about competiting with spangles and cut up music that just doesn't jive with the spirit of Sport. As one football player called it, it's a nice little girl sport.

We have to ignore that.

 

[Wicked]

I think skating would not be suffering the popularity decline in the US that it currently is if skaters were marketed better. And I'm not just talking about the American ones, either. The Yu-Na v. Mao rivalry could be portrayed. The returns of Plush and Lambiel. I think there are quite a few skaters with personalities (Leonova and Rachael both come to mind here) that make them interesting. It has really disturbed me that I have seen no figure skating in any of the commercials I've seen thus far in the US for the Games. (They really seem to be promoting the crap out of snowboarding!) If skating can't be promoted in the US in an Olympic year, well...

 

[Mafke]

Although...I suppose there is another way to look at it, too. Higher, faster, stronger. If you skate a clean program, maybe that means your program wasn't hard enough.
Like in pole vaulting. You clear 18 feet. Good. Then you clear 19 feet. Good. Then you try 20 feet. Even if you are the last person still in the competition, the audience expects you to keep on going until you miss.
You don't win a poll vaulting contest by clearing 18 feet three times with perfect form.

For the 13,464th time (but who's counting?) I'll repeat my answer to the sport or art? question:

Skating is a discipline. As long as a pole vaulter clears the bar without violating any rules it doesn't matter how ugly or incorrect their technique is. Skating is about doing things right (which is really, really hard) at least as much as higher, faster, stronger. There are lots of skaters who can do ugly *** spins with high levels, but how many can do memorable spins? I remember at the olympics Plushenko's awful (for a skater of his caliber) spins were earning more points than Lambiels excellent spins. That **** just aint' right.

 

[DarkestMoon]

As for which sport is making money vs the others, you got any links or references for us?

Snowboarding.

Most snowboarders, from top tier to the average (in comparison), has some sort of sponsorship. Christ, watching the X Games, you see ridiculous sponsors pouring in for the sport from headphones to venue lighting.

 

[prettykeys]

Figure Skating is a challenging sport in which to measure excellence because not only are there the Technical & Artistic spectra, but within the Technical, it is subdivided into "Difficulty Level" and Quality.

I think one of the issues, however, is that Difficulty may be overcredited at times at the expense of Quality.

Another confounding factor is that certain levels of Quality are difficult to achieve, but that is completely overlooked when it comes to certain things like spins.

 

[gsrossano]

I would add that skating is not the only sport (or specifically Olympic sport) where the athletes are partially judged for doing it (whatever it is) "right/pretty" or for how they look when they are doing whatever. So for anyone to say skating should just be about faster, higher stronger without concern for whether an element was done right, because all other sports are only about faster higher stronger would not be correct.

Even for sports that are purely about faster higher stronger, doing it wrong/ugly affects the results. You make an error in form or technique, you don't jump quite as high, or lose time in a race, or can't lift as heavy a weight. Maybe your ugly technique only costs you a little and you still win, maybe it's too ugly and you lose because of it. No different from skating. Your routine is a little ugly maybe other things are good and you still win. It's very ugly, it cost you a lot of points and you lose.

When it comes to the need to do it right/pretty, the main difference I see between a judged sport and a "clocked" sport is that in figure skating if your technique is wrong/ugly you lose points measured in GoE or PCs. In the "clocked" sports your wrong/ugly technique costs you seconds, or inches (cm), or pounds (kg).

In the pole vaulter example, yes the jumper gets over 18 feet and wins even if they have bad technique and look ugly, but they probably would have jumped higher if their form was good. And by having errors in form and not being able to jump as high otherwise, they put them self at risk of being beaten by the jumper with good form who can jump higher because they have good form.

I don't think skating needs to apologize for the fact it is a sport that rewards doing it right and pretty.

 

[antmanb]

Although...I suppose there is another way to look at it, too. Higher, faster, stronger. If you skate a clean program, maybe that means your program wasn't hard enough.

Like in pole vaulting. You clear 18 feet. Good. Then you clear 19 feet. Good. Then you try 20 feet. Even if you are the last person still in the competition, the audience expects you to keep on going until you miss.

You don't win a poll vaulting contest by clearing 18 feet three times with perfect form.

But pole vaulting has never been a judged sport with a mark for artistic impression/presentation/programme components

When the top jump competition happened it was exactly the way you describe....and the top jump competition ran for all of what....two...three seasons?

Ant