So Who's an Underdog and Who's a Favorite at Nationals?

[R.D.]

work she used to do were very hard but not in the way that is rewarded under COP, not with the lots of changes of edge and direction that is rewarded under COP. Plus her programs are the kind that dont score as high on the criteria of PCS as they would under presentation score. I actually dont like alot of things of the new system though, and alot of the same things I dont like about are things that make it harder on Kwan ironicaly as well.

Maybe she just overthought things a bit much. I sometimes wonder if she should have just gone out there and did the "same old same old" to see where she stood before committing herself to serious changes. (This would mean entering in a GP event or similar action.) This way I think she would know exactly what she needed to work on and could have paced herself better.

 

[MKFSfan]

I think Michelle DID improve quite a bit, even in her "dismal" Worlds showing. Her FW there was among the best, and received highest +GOE's. She had to learn the hard way that COP rewards quantity, not quality (for ex-Michelle has a wonderful sit spin, but even with a flying entry, it was only Level 1). She also got dinged for not holding her spirals long enough. Another thing she had to learn. Yes, had she done GPs, she would've learned it before Worlds, but I think she WAS dealing with injuries and was hoping to hold it off one more year. I think had COP come into existance in the prime of Michelle's career, we would have seen more programs like Taj Mahl or The Red Violin.

I disagree it has anything to do with Michelle having the "will but not the energy to improve". TT went on record saying "She works like crazy, and skates like a goddess." among other huge compliments, including she never knew how much Michelle could actually do. Another Russian said she was shocked by Michelle's work ethic, that she didn't think any American worked as hard as the Russians do (and this was in the past year). I'm sure we will never know what really happened, but I believe it was her body that started to quit on her, and learning new positions for COP helped push the wear and tear along.

IMO, Irina is practically the same skater under 6.0 as under COP. Some of the things she did under 6.0 were not rewarded as heavily as they are under COP (lots of 1-foot FW, beillmann, donut/camel spins). She has always received huge presentation marks, and now PCS marks. I think had Michelle competed, we would see high PCS from her as well.

 

[R.D.]

but I believe it was her body that started to quit on her, and learning new positions for COP helped push the wear and tear along.

This is more or less what I meant by "the will but not the energy to improve". As in, she very well may have wanted in her MIND to be competitive with everyone else, but the REALITY (her body) was not allowing her to do so. Of course, knowing how quiet she is, this led to all sorts of speculation (like she's "lazy" or something) and the appropriate retort from certain fans.

 

[slutskayafan21]

I think Michelle DID improve quite a bit, even in her "dismal" Worlds showing. Her FW there was among the best, and received highest +GOE's. She had to learn the hard way that COP rewards quantity, not quality (for ex-Michelle has a wonderful sit spin, but even with a flying entry, it was only Level 1). She also got dinged for not holding her spirals long enough. Another thing she had to learn. Yes, had she done GPs, she would've learned it before Worlds, but I think she WAS dealing with injuries and was hoping to hold it off one more year. I think had COP come into existance in the prime of Michelle's career, we would have seen more programs like Taj Mahl or The Red Violin.

I disagree it has anything to do with Michelle having the "will but not the energy to improve". TT went on record saying "She works like crazy, and skates like a goddess." among other huge compliments, including she never knew how much Michelle could actually do. Another Russian said she was shocked by Michelle's work ethic, that she didn't think any American worked as hard as the Russians do (and this was in the past year). I'm sure we will never know what really happened, but I believe it was her body that started to quit on her, and learning new positions for COP helped push the wear and tear along.

IMO, Irina is practically the same skater under 6.0 as under COP. Some of the things she did under 6.0 were not rewarded as heavily as they are under COP (lots of 1-foot FW, beillmann, donut/camel spins). She has always received huge presentation marks, and now PCS marks. I think had Michelle competed, we would see high PCS from her as well.

Yeah she seemed to learn as the week went along actually, little things like adding a second double to make a 3-jump combo on one jump, etc...... That is why it was too bad to not see her compete this year and see how much more she learned about COP.

 

[MKFSfan]

Yeah she seemed to learn as the week went along actually, little things like adding a second double to make a 3-jump combo on one jump, etc...... That is why it was too bad to not see her compete this year and see how much more she learned about COP.

I agree, and to see what TT came up with for her. TT said she "grew wings" while working for Michelle. Sources have said her programs were really nice, even when she could not do the jumps-her FW and spirals reportedly were much improved. Well, you never know! She may one day compete again...

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Yeah she seemed to learn as the week went along actually, little things like adding a second double to make a 3-jump combo on one jump, etc...... That is why it was too bad to not see her compete this year and see how much more she learned about COP.

Exactly! Michelle's a smart girl. If she'd been healthy, I think she could've made quite a run at the OGM.

But you know what? In twenty years, we won't be talking about her not winning the gold, but as the standard by which all other were/are measured. She got her ultimate wish: to be a legend in her sport. But one has to wonder if that will be enough for her... if that dream wasn't so big that it will leave a tiny tear in her heart... I wonder the same thing about Irina...

Is that the ultimate leason of the past ten years? Just because you want, deserve it, work for it and have proved over and over again that you are the best ~ does not mean you will win the prize you want.

 

[SeaniBu]

Very nice post! Personally I don't understand the view that Sasha is a diva, ice princess, etc.

I totally see her as the Celine Dion of the rink!

 

[R.D.]

I totally see her as the Celine Dion of the rink!

yup, I agree...

 

[demarinis5]

Exactly! Michelle's a smart girl. If she'd been healthy, I think she could've made quite a run at the OGM.

But you know what? In twenty years, we won't be talking about her not winning the gold, but as the standard by which all other were/are measured. She got her ultimate wish: to be a legend in her sport. But one has to wonder if that will be enough for her... if that dream wasn't so big that it will leave a tiny tear in her heart... I wonder the same thing about Irina...

Is that the ultimate leason of the past ten years? Just because you want, deserve it, work for it and have proved over and over again that you are the best ~ does not mean you will win the prize you want.

Good post and I agree totally. Sadly for this Kwan fan an end of an era.

 

[Mathman]

Is that the ultimate leason of the past ten years? Just because you want, deserve it, work for it and have proved over and over again that you are the best ~ does not mean you will win the prize you want.

I wonder that about all skaters. Thirty years from now, what will they remember most vividly about their competitive careers. Is it the medals won or lost, or is it the performances?

Which will Michelle look back on with greater fondness, her performance of Lyrica Angelica at U.S. Nationals (to quote the text, "How can such joy lack words to speak?"). Or will she be prouder of winning the world championship that year with an OK performance of the same program?

MM

 

[MKFSfan]

I wonder that about all skaters. Thirty years from now, what will they remember most vividly about their competitive careers. Is it the medals won or lost, or is it the performances?

Which will Michelle look back on with greater fondness, her performance of Lyrica Angelica at U.S. Nationals (to quote the text, "How can such joy lack words to speak?"). Or will she be prouder of winning the world championship that year with an OK performance of the same program?

MM

I would say each skater has their own moment. No doubt for Shiz, Sarah and Tara it is the OGM. On the other hand, it must be nice to be Michelle and have different defining and special moments to choose from. I wonder more about Sasha-if she does retire, what would be her fondest memory-2000 Nationals SP or maybe Olympics SP? She has had a better career than most, but hasn't really won when it matters. Who knows.

 

[Spun Silver]

I totally see her as the Celine Dion of the rink!

Yeccchh! Not me. Love Sasha, can't stand Celine.

Maybe it's my middle age but when I look at Sasha I always see young and vulnerable. It is very touching to see so much talent and luck (her gifts of beautiful line and shape) mixed with such fragility. And there are some K&C moments where the disappointment on her face is heartbreaking. Despite the Hollywood moments, neither on nor near the ice is she a diva - rather an almost-star with a tragic flaw.

Get me the violins!

 

[SeaniBu]

Yeccchh! Not me. Love Sasha, can't stand Celine.

Maybe it's my middle age but when I look at Sasha I always see young and vulnerable. It is very touching to see so much talent and luck (her gifts of beautiful line and shape) mixed with such fragility. And there are some K&C moments where the disappointment on her face is heartbreaking. Despite the Hollywood moments, neither on nor near the ice is she a diva - rather an almost-star with a tragic flaw.

Get me the violins!

I am not a big fan of Celine either, yet I like the comparison. Sasha is one of the most beautiful women I have ever seen - she is all kinds of good looking - cute, sexy, elegant, alluring, etc...gush....sorry
Yet the fact she is a "Diva is very faltering and surprising at a young age. I think Maria Butyskaya as a Diva for sure! Shasa is the youngest I can think of. Hillery Duff hasn't even achieved that comment, popular regarding her as yet. And I feel it is in great company. I hate to sound like a well... not there is anything wrong with that....but the the likes of Bett Middler, Share and one of my faves Barbra Streisand. And in my opinion one of the prettiest in this "community."

Anyhoo, I think it is a good thing!

 

[Spun Silver]

Anyhoo, I think it is a good thing!

Well, if you put it THAT way... :yes:

 

[MKFSfan]

I really think as Sasha's grownup she's become more vulnerable. Maybe it's trying to acheive that "Ice Princess/American Princess" status many in the public try to mold skaters into, or maybe she's been humbled by not winning every time out, I don't know. But what I think irked many is how she burst on the scene-basically implied she was robbed at 2000 Nationals ("The judges would never have put me 1st, Michelle is an Olympian."), naming elements after her ("Sashaspin, SashaSpiral, SashaCurl, SashaSkid"), and apparently shadowing skaters in warmups. I thought the change occured when she joined TT-TT SAID she wouldn't allow certain behaviors, even implying a lot of Sasha's issues had to do with her mother's interference. Perhaps in grooming Sasha to be the superstar she could be, Nicks and her mom gave her too much control and confidence and she had to be brought back to earth by TT. She does occasionaly make more foot in mouth commenst than any other US skater, and for some, that is a turnoff ("Emily should go, she earned that spot." "I don't think about Michelle. It's my time." "The competition at Worlds is dense.").

But I do agree that there are many times I feel for Sasha. She gets hammered in the media, hammered by the fans, and even when she doesn't mean harm, she does not get the benefit of the doubt.To me, the early Sasha came off as a spoiled, very confident brat. Look at Kimmie at the same age-she's so sweet and comes off so gracious, humble, whether she's winning Worlds or 6th at the Olympics. Some fans like to see that, I guess.

 

[debdelilah]

"The competition at Worlds is dense."

That one doesn't seem offensive. It would be if she were calling them stupid, but she probably means the other definition of "dense"--describing many skaters being placed very closely together in scores.

It was probably just her way of saying she had lots of competition and wasn't guaranteed to win.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

But I do agree that there are many times I feel for Sasha. She gets hammered in the media, hammered by the fans, and even when she doesn't mean harm, she does not get the benefit of the doubt.To me, the early Sasha came off as a spoiled, very confident brat. Look at Kimmie at the same age-she's so sweet and comes off so gracious, humble, whether she's winning Worlds or 6th at the Olympics. Some fans like to see that, I guess.

I feel for Sasha too, especially when she's so close to gold and it doesn't happen.

But tell me where do you get the idea tha she gets hammered in the media? She gets good press from the NY newspapers; she's in every playbill on Broadway showing her Citizen watches. So where, MKFSfan, does she get hammered other than in some but not ALL forums?

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

MKFSFAN - Your posts are definitely about MKs faults, and you are very protective of Sasha. No problem there for me. But I do wonder why you use that User ID? Wouldn't COHENFAN- be more identifiable for you?

There' really nothing to be ashamed of in this forum. We have lots of Cohen fans and we love them.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

That one doesn't seem offensive. It would be if she were calling them stupid, but she probably means the other definition of "dense"--describing many skaters being placed very closely together in scores.

It was probably just her way of saying she had lots of competition and wasn't guaranteed to win.

I think that's a typo in MKFSfan's post. I think what Sasha said was that the competition at Worlds was NOT as "dense" as for the Olympics. In the context (she was announcing that she had decided to go to worlds after all), it made it sound like she was saying that she wouldn't face much competition there, in the absence of Arakawa, Slutskaya, etc.

 

[R.D.]

...and we all know what happened. :yes: Never underestimate your competition...ever.