So Who's an Underdog and Who's a Favorite at Nationals?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

What does she say, "I went on the Subway diet and lost 60 pounds?"

Not quite. She saying that we don't need a watch to tell time but we do need the transportation.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I wasnt sure, that is why I was asking you to verify if that was the case. A friend of mine who is a Kirk fan was telling me that it took Cohen until the 02 Nationals to first beat Kirk, but then sadly Kirk never beat Cohen again, and I was surprised at that since Cohen seemed so far ahead of Kirk by 2002 anyway, it was hard to believe she would not have beaten her until then. I only remember their competing at the 2000 World juniors with Kirk winning with 7 triples, and Cohen coming 6th with 3 triples in the final long.

If your data is correct, then it shows my problem with Sasha.
I see her as not having any love for figure skating. It is a sport she took up to please her mother. She did, however, find figure skating to be glamorous, and that is what kept her at it. She had (has) so much natural talent that it took no time to really be a top competitor. Yet there were (are) always faults. Some posters see it as 'inconsistent'. I see it as lack of focus. I saw it in Dortmund and Calgary LPs. It seems to me that she didn't have the interest in either of these LPs. I don't want to use the word bored but it was something like that as she took the ice. It could be that in both competitions she skated fantastic SPs and did not feel the necessity to continue with fantastic LPs. Just got indifferent.

However, in the Olys, although the SP was as usual, exceptionally special, she did have trouble in the LP yet it wasn't due to indifference. She fell because of the nerves (as she said I couldn't feel my feet) but the glamor of Olympic Gold brought her to her feet and what may arguably be, her best skate to date. Focussed she was after the two collapses. That's what she should be in the future.

Can't help but like to watch Sasha skate. She has so much to offer. Hope she hangs around for a couple of years.

Joe

 

[slutskayafan21]

If your data is correct, then it shows my problem with Sasha.
I see her as not having any love for figure skating. It is a sport she took up to please her mother. She did, however, find figure skating to be glamorous, and that is what kept her at it. She had (has) so much natural talent that it took no time to really be a top competitor. Yet there were (are) always faults. Some posters see it as 'inconsistent'. I see it as lack of focus. I saw it in Dortmund and Calgary LPs. It seems to me that she didn't have the interest in either of these LPs. I don't want to use the word bored but it was something like that as she took the ice. It could be that in both competitions she skated fantastic SPs and did not feel the necessity to continue with fantastic LPs. Just got indifferent.

However, in the Olys, although the SP was as usual, exceptionally special, she did have trouble in the LP yet it wasn't due to indifference. She fell because of the nerves (as she said I couldn't feel my feet) but the glamor of Olympic Gold brought her to her feet and what may arguably be, her best skate to date. Focussed she was after the two collapses. That's what she should be in the future.

Can't help but like to watch Sasha skate. She has so much to offer. Hope she hangs around for a couple of years.

Joe

I totally agree. I dont get the impression she has that inner passion for the sport, and that absolute thrill of competition the way Kwan or Slutskaya for instance do. It is unfortunate since she is an extremely talented skater. The Olympics she showed alot of fight in the long program as you said, but the lure of Oly gold was there as a carrot.

 

[chuckm]

Sasha and Jenny Kirk met at Senior Nationals in 2000. Sasha won silver, and Jenny was 7th. I don't know where Slutskayafan gets his/her information.

 

[LBC]

Sasha and Jenny Kirk met at Senior Nationals in 2000. Sasha won silver, and Jenny was 7th. I don't know where Slutskayafan gets his/her information.

Sasha beat Jenny at Junior Nationals in 1999. Sasha won the silver and Jenny the bronze. Jenny beat Sasha for the last time at world juniors in 2000.

 

[MKFSfan]

I totally agree. I dont get the impression she has that inner passion for the sport, and that absolute thrill of competition the way Kwan or Slutskaya for instance do. It is unfortunate since she is an extremely talented skater. The Olympics she showed alot of fight in the long program as you said, but the lure of Oly gold was there as a carrot.

Hmm...I'm torn, cuz I do agree with you. I think Sasha, as a person, is a fierce competitor and wants to win very badly. I think no matter what event/sport Sasha took up, she would be the same way. While I truly believe Sasha loves performing and skating, I'm not convinced she likes to compete, but she does want to be the best. Sometimes I think being the best, the winner, just the end result, is more important to Sasha than skating her heart out and just loving the moment.

However, I do agree that certain skaters seem to thrive on skating competitions-Michelle loves being in the spotlight, and being put on the spot. She may not be the most talented skater ever, but she did the most with her God given talent, plus serious work ethic. Even so, I think she would have been successful no matter what she chose to do. Same as Irina or Kimmie or Tara or Sarah...etc...

 

[Spun Silver]

If your data is correct, then it shows my problem with Sasha.
I see her as not having any love for figure skating. It is a sport she took up to please her mother. She did, however, find figure skating to be glamorous, and that is what kept her at it. She had (has) so much natural talent that it took no time to really be a top competitor. Yet there were (are) always faults. Some posters see it as 'inconsistent'. I see it as lack of focus. I saw it in Dortmund and Calgary LPs. It seems to me that she didn't have the interest in either of these LPs. I don't want to use the word bored but it was something like that as she took the ice. It could be that in both competitions she skated fantastic SPs and did not feel the necessity to continue with fantastic LPs. Just got indifferent.

However, in the Olys, although the SP was as usual, exceptionally special, she did have trouble in the LP yet it wasn't due to indifference. She fell because of the nerves (as she said I couldn't feel my feet) but the glamor of Olympic Gold brought her to her feet and what may arguably be, her best skate to date. Focussed she was after the two collapses. That's what she should be in the future.

Can't help but like to watch Sasha skate. She has so much to offer. Hope she hangs around for a couple of years.

Aaaaaaarrrrggghhh! Nothing against you, Joe, but this is the kind of Sasha post that drives me nuts - when people claim to read her heart and mind and criticize her for not caring enough. It may even be worse than all the 'Sasha-splat' bashing.

Can't we just admit that we don't know her heart and stop accusing her of being a phony? (Because obviously every top athlete or artist has to be passionate about their sport or art, that's what makes them fight and excel.) We could just as well suppose that the pressure she's had since her teens (and before, I suppose), on top of her own obvious anguish over the missed golds is certainly enough to take the light out of her eyes at times.

But I'm glad you still like watching her, Joe!

 

[R.D.]

But, isn't this what speculation is all about? No bashing in the post in question. I also happen to think she's lost heart in skating. IT DOES NOT MEAN IT'S TRUE, THOUGH. I just THINK so.

And "Sasha Splat" is NOT bashing (at least in the context that it's being used here).

I wouldn't go so far as to call her a "phony" but I do think many things that she does are "phony". JMO, of course and sticking to it.

 

[Spun Silver]

I should have been more clear in view of the recent discussion here of the word "splat." I don't really care what word is used. What seems truly excessive to me is the incessant harping on Sasha's falls. Thread after thread after thread on what's wrong with Sasha, including frequent charges that the things her fans think are great - whether spins, footwork, spirals, determination to win, or whatever - are really fake(d) or flawed - and how she owes it to the world, other skaters, bored fans, and herself to get out of skating (despite having done her best skating only a few months ago in Torino, after the falls).

The dumping outweighs any assessment of the things that have kept her on the podium for 5 years by a factor of about 10:1.... versus about 2:1 or 3:1 for other skaters.

At least how that seems to me as a fan. Maybe I am hypersensitive. I keep wanting to remind everyone that she's a human being with feelings.

Rant over.

 

[R.D.]

I don't think there have been many threads criticizing Sasha. But I feel that in general posters have eased up on her over the years, and now some are even defending her (!) in many cases during these discussions. More Cohen fans, maybe? It NEVER used to be this way, and take my word for it.

But she's never going to read this stuff. I mean, honestly. I really don't think we need to take skaters' feelings into consideration here (note that this does not mean bash at free will; it just means that outside of bashing, we should be free to make positive or negative comments about one's skating).

I think she's looking to other things now. I say personally that it's probably time for her to move on. But that's just MY thought. And I think she thinks so, too.

 

[R.D.]

The dumping outweighs any assessment of the things that have kept her on the podium for 5 years by a factor of about 10:1.... versus about 2:1 or 3:1 for other skaters.

She's been able to stay on the podium because of the new scoring system. As I read somewhere "she can't jump" (not my quote, but I think one from a Russian newspaper or something) but she can utilize her strengths and extreme flexibility to "rack up" the points. That and others make more mistakes and open the door for her.

(and I think the judges want her to win or something...)

 

[Spun Silver]

She's been able to stay on the podium because of the new scoring system. As I read somewhere "she can't jump" (not my quote, but I think one from a Russian newspaper or something) but she can utilize her strengths and extreme flexibility to "rack up" the points. That and others make more mistakes and open the door for her.

(and I think the judges want her to win or something...)

Well, most fans think the new scoring system is superior to the old. In which case, she has stayed on the podium for good reason.

I guess you know the judges personally. You got me there!

 

[R.D.]

I sure do. hehe...

But kidding aside, she's only been on the podium because other skaters couldn't take advantage of her mistakes.

 

[Spun Silver]

I don't think there have been many threads criticizing Sasha. But I feel that in general posters have eased up on her over the years, and now some are even defending her (!) in many cases during these discussions. More Cohen fans, maybe? It NEVER used to be this way, and take my word for it.

But she's never going to read this stuff. I mean, honestly. I really don't think we need to take skaters' feelings into consideration here (note that this does not mean bash at free will; it just means that outside of bashing, we should be free to make positive or negative comments about one's skating).

I think she's looking to other things now. I say personally that it's probably time for her to move on. But that's just MY thought. And I think she thinks so, too.

Well, that is just factually wrong about not many threads criticizing Sasha although (1) I'm including threads re other topics that INCLUDE S-bashes; (2) I'm not talking about this board mainly. Heck - her own fans were bashing her after Worlds this year; and (3) it may be way less now than before - just don't know what the boards were like before this year.

You are probably right that she doesn't read these boards. But I am sure people she knows do. And human nature being what it is, I'm sure some of them drop hints about what they read to her. Maybe she is firm-willed enough to forbid that... but it looks to me like SOMETHING is getting to her, and the constant criticism is a possibility. She certainly hears it directly from the media. Remember Kimmie saying she learned how to handle the media from Sasha not Michelle "because you guys [media] love Michelle."

I'm not trying to infringe fan free speech but I am questioning the passion against Sasha. There is some special figure-skating-fan thing with her that I just don't get.

 

[Spun Silver]

I sure do. hehe...

But kidding aside, she's only been on the podium because other skaters couldn't take advantage of her mistakes.

IOW, because she skated better than they did! On a regular basis for five years now!

Jeez, would it make your fingers hurt to type that she is a superb skater?

 

[R.D.]

If you're talking ALL boards in general, then yes, some threads are fairly critical of her. But as a fan, why do you read those or pay attention to them?

You are right on with (3), BTW. You should have been here three years ago. People here are actually DEFENDING Sasha now and that's surprising to me that that's happening. I still don't know why, though. Seems like it just happened, too.

I agree that the press tends to be a little critical of her now. But Sasha's fans like to forget that she actually was the media darling a couple of years ago. She was the one who was hyped and getting praise.

I only know of ONE board (that will go unnamed) that has true "passion against Sasha". But I think all the other boards for the most part are on equal ground. Some are critical of her but there are enough defenders of her to even things out in the long run.

You say there is some "figure-skating-fan" thing with Sasha. I say heck no. There does seem to be some "figure-skating-fan" thing going on with Tara Lipinski, however, if anyone (excluding Tonya Harding, of course). But I won't go there.

 

[R.D.]

IOW, because she skated better than they did! On a regular basis for five years now!

umm...in the end, it all comes to the same thing, no?

Jeez, would it make your fingers hurt to type that she is a superb skater?

What if I disagree? (Good, great, yes, otherwise she wouldn't be where she is. But I feel that "superb" is a loaded word that sounds like how a fan would describe her.) She certainly has a talent that is apparent from watching her vs. most other skaters. But it does not mean I have to like her. Ugh!

 

[Spun Silver]

umm...it all comes to the same thing doesn't it?

Umm, no.

What if I disagree? (Good, great, yes, otherwise she wouldn't be where she is. But I feel that "superb" is a loaded word that sounds like how a fan would describe her.) She certainly has a talent that is apparent from watching her vs. most other skaters. But it does not mean I have to like her. Ugh!

"Good" "great" "talent that is apparent... most other skaters" - that is what I wanted to read, just occasionally, to make the criticism look fair. No, you certainly don't have to like her - just acknowledge that the flaws are flaws of a good, even great, obviously talented skater. Thanks.

 

[R.D.]

Umm, no.

last time I checked, me saying "other skaters didn't take advantage of her mistakes" is basically the same as saying "she skated better than them." Right?

No, you certainly don't have to like her - just acknowledge that the flaws are flaws of a good, even great, obviously talented skater. Thanks.

And I agree. But here's the key- you have to not take these things personally. If someone is a fan of a celebrity and comes across a "neutral" or a "hater" it's easy to launch into defense mode. But just keep in mind that not everyone loves her.

 

[ladybug]

Ladybug - You seem to imply that the Federations have the ultimate influence on who is a favorite by their hypes. I suppose that has an influence on the unofficial naming of the skater who will look the best going into a competition. But don't you think there is some influence by the past accomplishments?

It's hard to dismiss the medals over the years as having no influence on the prowess of the skater. I think one has to consider many things before anoiting one the favorite skater going into the competition.

Sasha has many medals; Kimmie not as many. Sasha has great commericals; Kimmie has none that I know of. Sasha has more fans that Kimmie, I think. Sasha is already the defending champion. Kimmie was basically lackluster except for Calgary. I think you can agree to the last statement.

I'm not putting Kimmie down. I'm just saying a few factual considerations.

Joe

Joe, I used the Federations because they seem to make the decision on who is the favorite and who is the underdog through the voices of Peggy and Dick. Michelle has always been the fans favorite but I feel the Federation wanted to give the gold to Sasha the last couple of years but she just wouldn't let them until Michelle was out of the picture. Michelle will be the fans favorite if she were to compete but not the Federation's favorite. They want Kimmie to succeed because they know she will be around for a while and they need a new American Sweetheart. This is not a winning prediction, just a favorite prediction.

As for Mao, I doubt she will continue as she did this past season and she may even lose that 3 axel but for now, she will be the favorite.

Medals are important but no one has won as many gold medals as Michelle and she has been the underdog so many times. She just continued to prove everyone wrong.

Ladybug