SP and FS replaced by Technical and Artistic programs?

[lpt]

Did he or did he not use a clapping hand in response to the comment on his IG post: “Jason Brown is a <slur word for gay man>>who cannot even do triples”?
Obviously I do not need to respect the opinion of such a fool and I don’t. Has nothing to do with anonymous persons

It is your busyness. I couldn't care less if he used 'clapping hand' or whatever.
I respect his opinion and agree with him.

 

[TallyT]

You are absolutely correct! It’s the game the judges play, supposedly because the sport is losing popularity. In their desperation to make a certain skater the champion they are willing to change the system again!And that skater is a very good person, and a good skater. But the desire of his fans and that of the judges to make us adore him, sadly makes it impossible for us to enjoy him!

Which certain skater are we talking about now? I'm confused, it sounds like you mean Jason but the words right now sound more like Nathan Chen... and look, I can understand - if get annoyed at and no I'm not pretending to be objective - the US Fed's blatant throwing their weight around for either, or anyone they think can be the next Big Name In the USA. They need bums on seats after all. Even Nathan Chen's golds and records, though they may make him wealthy and good for him, aren't going to be of that much use to his sport in his country unless it fills rinks and lots of them: that's a hard fact of modern sporting business.

And it's a long wait for that little junior phenom in the ladies to do so.

Really? You're gonna quote a raging homophobe who literally hates Jason because he doesn't skate "manly" enough for him?

Which surprises me, because Yagudin made it clear last year that he loooooves Yuzuru, who may have quads but has otherwise never shown the slightest interest in bowing to collective norms of what 'manly' should be... but then, it is true that -phobes of any stripe are seldom noted for rational or even decent thinking.

 

[Mathman]

I hear you. But my argument is, Skating is an Olympic sport! The athlete should be able to do the best and most difficult program that he can. Imagine telling a sprinter or any other athlete out there to Not do their best!

Well, we don't have to imagine it. Figure skating has always told skaters, you can only do so many jumps and if you do any more they will not count. Johnny Weir was allowed only so many jumps and no more. Alexei Yagudin was allowed only so many jumps and no more. Johnny Weir was not allowed to do a three quad Salchows in a program, or even three triple Salchows. Neither was Alexei Yagudin.

That's just how the sport of figure skating is, Show me a variety of jumps, show me some spins, show me some moves in the field, show me some choreography. The ISU juggles the relative point values every year, with nothing much really changing.

 

[Mathman]

... the US Fed's blatant throwing their weight around ...

And that's another thing to think about. Does the USFSA have any "weight" to throw around? Does anyone pay attention when they say, hey, y'all, this Nathan is pretty super? (Or this Jason.)

 

[georgia]

Well, we don't have to imagine it. Figure skating has always told skaters, you can only do so many jumps and if you do any more they will not count. Johnny Weir was allowed only so many jumps and no more. Alexei Yagudin was allowed only so many jumps and no more. Johnny Weir was not allowed to do a three quad Salchows in a program, or even three triple Salchows. Neither was Alexei Yagudin.

That's just how the sport of figure skating is, Show me a variety of jumps, show me some spins, show me some moves in the field, show me some choreography. The ISU juggles the relative point values every year, with nothing much really changing.

That’s why in the world of sport don’t take skating seriously.

 

[TallyT]

And that's another thing to think about. Does the USFSA have any "weight" to throw around? Does anyone pay attention when they say, hey, y'all, this Nathan is pretty super? (Or this Jason.)

I just look at results, and what happens to the scores of the selected poster children (Zhou being an egregrious example, and then there's Tennell who I don't mind but still...) Like with the Russians, the proof of the political and PCS pudding is always in the eating.

 

[Mathman]

I just look at results, and what happens to the scores of the selected poster children (Zhou being an egregrious example, and then there's Tennell who I don't mind but still...) Like with the Russians, the proof of the political and PCS pudding is always in the eating.

Kind of a chicken and egg thing, to me. Vincent Zhou starts landing a bunch of quads, all of a sudden the USFSA jumps on his bandwagon. Bradie Tennell is the best we've got, the USFSA starts blowing her trumpet.

If International judges start saying, hey, that Vincent -- he lands a lot of quads; that Bradie, she's not so bad after all -- I am not sure how much that is because of anything the Association did.

 

[TontoK]

Kind of a chicken and egg thing, to me. Vincent Zhou starts landing a bunch of quads, all of a sudden the USFSA jumps on his bandwagon. Bradie Tennell is the best we've got, the USFSA starts blowing her trumpet.

If International judges start saying, hey, that Vincent -- he lands a lot of quads; that Bradie, she's not so bad after all -- I am not sure how much that is because of anything the Association did.

I think a lot of criticism discounts the fact that skaters improve.

Vincent improved his technique. Bradie has worked hard to improve her component score, and it shows.

I'm not sure why we wouldn't expect their work to be reflected in the scores.

I'm reminded of an incident a season or two ago, when people complained that PCS scores for some skaters had improved over the course of a season.

Isn't that what we want? For the athletes to get better as they work to refine their programs? Instead, the increase in PCS was attributed to "rigging" the competition.

 

[gkelly]

I'm intrigued by this. Of course, when I started watching skating, the the SP was called the Technical program and the LP was called the Artistic program,

ISU competition has never (before now) had a competition phase called "Artistic Program."

The official name of the final competition phase has always been "Free Skate."
(Exactly how free it is or isn't under IJS rules is a different question.)

Pro competitions often had a "Technical Program" with more jumps as the first phase and an "Artistic Program" with fewer jumps as the final phase. You're probably conflating memories of watching pro competitions with memories of watching 6.0-era amateur/Olympic-eligible competitions during the same time period.

and the scores were were the 6.0 system. If I'm remembering correctly, the technique was rewarded more in the TP and artistry was rewarded more in the AP. So, this basically would be a situation of the new scoring system having the rules of the old scoring system applied to it.

Could this work?

My understanding is that this is more or less the direction that they're talking about going.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Why do I have the feeling that the ISU’s final draft/proposal will include a definition of “artistic” program that is going to fall short of what some of you are wanting. They’ll probably just expand the ChSeq and add points for spins and jumps highlighting the music in creative ways.

I enjoy all kinds of skating so I doubt I’ll get very worked up either way anyway

 

[gkelly]

So if both programs have equal weight and equal program length, they could do a coin toss before each competition to decide which program goes first this time.

 

[lariko]

I agree that the USFSA is doing everything they can to publicize Nathan's talents and achievements. And it does help, as Lariko says, that Nathan is "an ideal young man in every way imaginable."

So far, though, it hasn't worked very well in terms of piquing the interest of the American public. Not the fault of the USFSA, just reflective of the general decline of interest in figure skating in the U.S., especially men's figure skating which always lagged behind ladies. In the whole history of figure skating in the U.S., only two, Scott Hamilton and Brian Boitano, have any kind of name recognition outside the tiny circle of skating enthusiasts. Maybe this will change if Nathan wins the Olympics in 2022 -- but it didn't help Evan Lysacek.

That's why I hate to see fights between Nathan Chen fans and Jason Brown fans -- they are fighting over such a small piece of the pie that it hardly seems worth it.

That is precisely what I mean. He is all but invisible in mainstream media and that doesn’t make any sense to me. An Americain article even called him an underdog last year... ???

 

[rosy14]

Wow. I know you hate Jason but this is just a statement completely not grounded in reality.

Chen has been the beneficiary of an unprecedented propaganda campaign from USFS (partnered with NBC). All that stuff about "his ballet training!" and articles proclaiming he could have been the next Nuryev (I mean, yikes) and that bloody "Peter and the Wolf" video that they whip out at every turn as proof he is "such an artist!" while he throws out all his choreography to land quads. The President of the USFS even gave an interview in May 2018 where he described Chen and Zhou as the only two worthwhile men in US skating! Good grief!

Oh, beautiful not to be alone in my previous considerations about Nathan !

 

[lariko]

I agree about fighting between fans, and I find much to admire in Nathan’s skating. Of course Jason is my favorite, but there is so much to like in all our wonderful men.

As a Jason fan, I find it interesting that those who do not follow appear to follow American men’s skating seem to hold up Nathan as a way to argue against Jason getting points even when many US men’s fans do not. The US men’s skating fans know better.

I follow figure skating. Not American FS, not Russian FS, not Canadian FS, not Korean FS, not Japanese FS, etc. I see internationally competing skaters including Chen and Brown, so I feel I can compare the two. Or any other two skaters. I can even go wild, and compare junior to a senior of different countries, or a male to a female skater from different countries or age groups, or from different eras.

Does that adequately address your concern about fans not born on US soil forming opinions on US skaters that may disagree with yours?

I would like to emphasize that this thread is not designated as a Fan Fest or as a specific national thread.

I very deliberately, out of courtesy, do not post in the American specific discussion even about the US skaters I like to avoid potential acrimony. I follow every rule of civil behaviour I can think of.

 

[rosy14]

I think bitter, twisted Weir says what suits his view. Weir does not want Jason to do well because Jason is the artist Weir always wishes he was. Weir feeds out his lines from NBC to push Chen. That Jason has benefited from the +5/-5 was entirely unexpected and not the USFS goal.

I beg to differ.
And all this hype about Jason placing second at 4CC, where no Nathan, no Shoma, no Vincent, no Russian were and where Boyang decided to pop two quads, is meaningless.
I like him a lot, but at Worlds, IF everyone skates his programme clean, Jason would probably end 6th-10th, considering Italians, French and Georgian too.
And he was over Yuzuru in PCS because of the mistakes the latter made. A clean Yuzu will beat him in PCS. As it happened in the past, when Yuzu had only two quads.

 

[rosy14]

You are absolutely correct! It’s the game the judges play, supposedly because the sport is losing popularity. In their desperation to make a certain skater the champion they are willing to change the system again!And that skater is a very good person, and a good skater. But the desire of his fans and that of the judges to make us adore him, sadly makes it impossible for us to enjoy him!

Alleluia !

 

[lariko]

I beg to differ.
And all this hype about Jason placing second at 4CC, where no Nathan, no Shoma, no Vincent, no Russian were and where Boyang decided to pop two quads, is meaningless.
I like him a lot, but at Worlds, IF everyone skates his programme clean, Jason would probably end 6th-10th, considering Italians, French and Georgian too.
And he was over Yuzuru in PCS because of the mistakes the latter made. A clean Yuzu will beat him in PCS. As it happened in the past, when Yuzu had only two quads.

Russian=Dmitrii Aliev (or Artur Danielian)
Italians= Daniel Grassl and Matteo Rizzo
French=Kevin Aymoz
Georgian=Morisi Kvitelashvilli

 

[rosy14]

I think a lot of criticism discounts the fact that skaters improve.

Vincent improved his technique. Bradie has worked hard to improve her component score, and it shows.

I'm not sure why we wouldn't expect their work to be reflected in the scores.

I'm reminded of an incident a season or two ago, when people complained that PCS scores for some skaters had improved over the course of a season.

Isn't that what we want? For the athletes to get better as they work to refine their programs? Instead, the increase in PCS was attributed to "rigging" the competition.

It is one thing to improve from, say, last Junior Worlds championships to first Senior WC in one year period of time. But when you start in September earning much higher PCS than in previous March at Worlds and coming December (GP final) you get even higher scores and then you win the Olympics as your first ( and last) big competition , it’s a total different thing.
Bradie and Vincent, as Nathan, have improved their PCS along the years, but Bradie at SA 2019 was actually better than Bradie in Saitama in March 2019 ? Or Vincent at Worlds and 4CC last year was much better than Vincent at the GPS ?
I don’t think so.
And by the way compare their improvements in PCS with those of skaters coming from small federation...

 

[rosy14]

Russian=Dmitrii Aliev (or Artur Danielian)
Italians= Daniel Grassl and Matteo Rizzo
French=Kevin Aymoz
Georgian=Morisi Kvitelashvilli

Exactly. And I forgot the Canadian Nam Nguyen and the Korean Cha.

 

[Mathman]

I have been mulling over arguments posted here regarding the analogy between a sport like running the 100 meter dash and the sport of figure skating.

In the 100 meter dash, the purpose of a race is to determine who can run the fastest.

In figure skating, the purpose of a competition is to determine who can skate the best.

So far so good. But how does an athlete demonstrate that he can run the fastest or skate the best? In track and field, the answer is obvious -- you cross the finish line first. But in skating the idea of "skating the best" has many facets. Yes, if you can do a quad Salchow and the other guy can't, then that counts. But also if you have a deeper lean on your spread eagle than the other guy, that counts toward "skating the best," too. And if you are better than the other guy at weaving all of your individual elements together and making a well-designed program out of them, that counts, too.

This has always been the case in figure skating, through many rule changes and different scoring systems. The only thing that can hurt figure skating as a whole is if one aspect of being "the best skater" swells up in importance to the point of dominating all the others. If this happens, then our sport is no longer unique -- it has become "just like other sports," one-dimensional.

The proposal of the ISU Technical Committee does not hold anyone back. But figure skating's balancing act does require "balance checks" every now and then.