SP and FS replaced by Technical and Artistic programs?

[lariko]

Exactly. And I forgot the Canadian Nam Nguyen and the Korean Cha.

There are more skaters of different countries that may appear in top ten, that’s correct, that’s desirable and the current system allows for that to happen.

If the proposed overhaul of the rules would change that, we don’t know. The only thing that could be deduced is that it will favour skaters with lower stamina because the programs will be shorter and presumably have less jumps than in FP.

 

[Mathman]

.... and then you win the Olympics as your first (and last) big competition, it’s a total different thing.

Who are you referring to here? Adelina Sotnikova? She was at 2013 Worlds (finishing 9th), so the Olympics was not her first big competition. Ilia Kulik actually went to worlds 3 times (9th, 2nd and 5th) before his surprise win at the 1998 Olympics, zooming rapidly up the ranks during the 1997-98 season.

As for the most recent Olympics, the winners were Yuzuru Hanyu (who had won everything in sight for years), Alina Zagitova (though young, she was undefeated that year, and the next year she completed a skating grand slam by winning worlds), Virtue and Moir (who won a total of three Oymppic gold medals and 2 silvers, counting team, in their career) and Savchekno and Massot (Aliona having been atop podiums for a decade before her Olympic win).

 

[Mathman]

The only thing that could be deduced is that it will favour skaters with lower stamina because the programs will be shorter and presumably have less jumps than in FP.

One of the two programs will be shorter than before and one of the two programs will be longer than before. And in fact, it is the so-called "Artistic Program" that will be shorter, not the (presumably more jump-intensive) Technical Program -- that will actually be longer and require more stamina than before.

Give a little, take a little.

 

[el henry]

I follow figure skating. Not American FS, not Russian FS, not Canadian FS, not Korean FS, not Japanese FS, etc. I see internationally competing skaters including Chen and Brown, so I feel I can compare the two. Or any other two skaters. I can even go wild, and compare junior to a senior of different countries, or a male to a female skater from different countries or age groups, or from different eras.

Does that adequately address your concern about fans not born on US soil forming opinions on US skaters that may disagree with yours?

I would like to emphasize that this thread is not designated as a Fan Fest or as a specific national thread.

I very deliberately, out of courtesy, do not post in the American specific discussion even about the US skaters I like to avoid potential acrimony. I follow every rule of civil behaviour I can think of.

Lariko, thank you for your reply. You bring up important points and we agree on many of them.

1. I was not referring to you with the “some people holding up Nathan”. I should have said “Arguments that pit Nathan fans against Jason fans as a reason for not changing the rules”. Many many many many fans enjoy both skaters, even if they prefer one to the other.
I personally dislike “some people” posts when they are referring to other posters on Goldenskate. I think they are discourteous and even cowardly. If you have an issue with a poster, to my mind you should in fact engage the poster directly. And I believe I have engaged with you in the past

2. I follow figure skating as a whole as well. My favorite skaters are American, Mexican, Latvian, French, Japanese and from many other countries, and I love them all. I started in this fandom world adoring a Canadian skater, and I am not Canadian. I do not understand fans who root for countries or schools or coaches or anything except their favorite skaters. (I do understand pride when a skater from ones country wins, but that is different than indiscrimately rooting for every skater )

3. I used the phrase following American men not so much for cheering for, but again, for knowledge: for any misconception that fans of one skater do not appreciate the other. Nathan and Jason have the deepest respect for one another and for one another’s skills and talents. I do not expect anyone who is not “following” the US men to know how they praise each other, that is what I meant.

Jumping off, figure skating just is not popular in the US. USFS has tried their darndest with Nathan, as I would if I were USFS, and no go. So has commercial television (those of us watching often joke that NBC is the Nathan Broadcasting Company).

None of us have the magic bullet to change that popularity. Sigh.....

 

[4everchan]

there is no way i am reading 27 pages LOL

but i do think, from reading the first lines of the new proposal that this could be good for the sport. In each program, skaters, who are already expected to be competent in both aspects of the sport would have to focus on specific things to achieve. I used to like how the Short Program had specific rules each year etc... now it's just a mini long program which doesn't really give any advantage to the best jumpers : it gives an advantage to the best overall skaters... Who know what we would see if skaters had to really focus on specific elements... i like for instance, how the dance pattern is such an important factor in ice dance... it would be great to see what technical elements could be picked for skaters and how they could integrate them thinking about TES.... then, the other program would still allow jumpers to earn points... that's why it still has TES but with a focus on PCS, we may finally see deeper edges and interesting choreography... honestly, it's been lacking lately... especially with some skaters constantly repeating programs... we see the same old same old 3-4 big jumping passes programs... with then a break to put in a a spin and a choreo/step sequence, so the skater can come back with another 3-4 jumps in the second half, finishing with choreo/step and the spins.... i bet a program which is relying on artistry would demand a choreographed through program where interpretation and composition are rewarded ... who cares about a 3loop that is just there to fill in the 7 jumps requirements... now, if there is a 3loop in the program, it would be because it does look good with the choreo/music etc...

i think we would see more variety and in the end, i think the best overall skaters would win... probably no big change from what we get right now.. though we may over time find specialists... especially when coming from juniors.... for instance, Canadian Conrad Orzel : i would love to see what he can do if a program is focused on jumps... he has landed all quads but the axel in practice but integrating them in programs is more difficult for him... Choreography is not his forte though he is improving... it would be very interesting to see how well he could do there... and how much he would need to grow artistically to do as well in the other program.. in the end, it may help every skater while it makes it more interesting for the public...

i believe it's the only way to keep two programs per discipline.... it has to change as right now the programs are pretty much the same. The ISU could simply decide that the event is skated and decided based on ONE program only.... so as a fan.... i prefer two different programs

as i said.. i didn't read 27 pages.. .maybe some of my ideas have been mentioned and/ or destroyed already... i thought i just wanted to share what my; feelings were, without being influenced. ...

 

[eterialskater]

I'm already pissed at the scores Jason is receiving now they plan to pull another shenanigan by increasing the judges leeway who to put on top with PCS.

 

[Tahuu]

I plug in some hypothetical scores in to see how the proposed tech program (.6TES.4PCS) and artistic program (.4TES.6PCS) will change podium placements. (sorry it's not in a table format)

Under current TESCS ratio (1TES1PCS):

TP

• Skater
  A​
  B​
  C​
• TES
  100​
  110​
  120​
• PCS
  100​
  90​
  80​
• TSS
  200​
  200​
  200​
• Place (TES tie breaker)
  3​
  2​
  1​

AP

• Skater
  A​
  B​
  C​
• TES
  100​
  110​
  120​
• PCS
  100​
  90​
  80​
• TSS
  200​
  200​
  200​
• Place (TES tie breaker)
  3​
  2​
  1​

Total

• Skater
  A​
  B​
  C​
• Combined Score
  400​
  400​
  400​
• Place (TES tie breaker)
  3​
  2​
  1​

Under proposed TESCS ratio (TP:.6TES.4PCS and AP:.4TES.6PCS):

TP

• Skater
  A​
  B​
  C​
• TES
  60​
  66​
  72​
• PCS
  40​
  36​
  32​
• TSS
  100​
  102​
  104​
• Place
  3​
  2​
  1​

AP

• Skater
  A​
  B​
  C​
• TES
  40​
  44​
  48​
• PCS
  60​
  54​
  48​
• TSS
  100​
  98​
  96​
• Place
  1​
  2​
  3​

Total

• Skater
  A​
  B​
  C​
• Combined Score
  200​
  200​
  200​
• Place (TES tie breaker)
  3​
  2​
  1​

As seen, the only difference the new proposal made is the placement of the artistic program. If ISU can't get IOC to award 3 medals (TP, AP and combined) for figure skating at the Olympics, the new proposal is useless. It only makes the scoring more complicated and confusing to viewers.

Eta, it won't make a difference in the combined placements is due to what the skater loses in the AP he gets it back in the TP, vice versa, that is, (0.6+0.4)/(0.4+0.6) = 1/1. Now the scores we see on the screen (TES) and don't see (PCS) will be further converted (manipulated) to get the final scores. What a mess!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Exactly. And I forgot the Canadian Nam Nguyen and the Korean Cha.

Okay, I agree about some of the Europeans (namely Aliev and Aymoz), but Nguyen and Cha are unlikely to defeat Brown. Maybe Cha if he cleans up his URs, but that seems to be rampant with him (although in general he was excellent at 4CC).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I have been mulling over arguments posted here regarding the analogy between a sport like running the 100 meter dash and the sport of figure skating.

In the 100 meter dash, the purpose of a race is to determine who can run the fastest.

In figure skating, the purpose of a competition is to determine who can skate the best.

So far so good. But how does an athlete demonstrate that he can run the fastest or skate the best? In track and field, the answer is obvious -- you cross the finish line first. But in skating the idea of "skating the best" has many facets. Yes, if you can do a quad Salchow and the other guy can't, then that counts. But also if you have a deeper lean on your spread eagle than the other guy, that counts toward "skating the best," too. And if you are better than the other guy at weaving all of your individual elements together and making a well-designed program out of them, that counts, too.

This has always been the case in figure skating, through many rule changes and different scoring systems. The only thing that can hurt figure skating as a whole is if one aspect of being "the best skater" swells up in importance to the point of dominating all the others. If this happens, then our sport is no longer unique -- it has become "just like other sports," one-dimensional.

The proposal of the ISU Technical Committee does not hold anyone back. But figure skating's balancing act does require "balance checks" every now and then.

The "balance checks" is the issuing I'm having because instead of encouraging technically-deficient skaters to improve their firepower, it holds back technically-superior skaters in order to level the playing field.

This would be like Usain bolt winning the 100 m by 10 m, so they start him back 10 m at the start of every race so he doesn't win every time. It doesn't encourage his opponents to get better, it just mitigates the extra effort they need to potentially come close to beating him.

Yes, skating is a qualitative sport, but what we're talking about is shifting the needle from quantitative certainties (base value for elements) to subjective whims of judges who are subject to bias and politics (thus amending their PCS).

What's to stop a judge from giving Brown a 10 for an artistic program riddled with errors because his skating quality is still better than Boyang Jin. Is there even any point in Jin/Nguyen/etc. competing in an "artistic" program knowing there's absolutely nothing they can do to reach the artistic level of Brown, even if they considerably improved their own artistry? At least in the current system, a skater who goes clean COULD still beat an artistic/top-tier skater who bombs because of guaranteed points for elements executed well vs. their opponents failing to get points for executing elements well. But in an artistic program that's all thrown out the window. Might as well turn it into a beauty pageant where no amount of talent/good answers in the Q&A could win you the competition if someone else looks (subjectively) better or is more popular/favoured to win.

 

[Mathman]

We see the same old same old 3-4 big jumping passes programs... with then a break to put in a a spin and a choreo/step sequence, so the skater can come back with another 3-4 jumps in the second half, finishing with choreo/step and the spins.... i bet a program which is relying on artistry would demand a choreographed through program where interpretation and composition are rewarded ...

You know what would be cool? many musical works, especially concertos, have a cheerful virtuoso first movement followed by an adagio /largo second movement which often carries the musical substance of the work. A skater could do the first program (the technical program) to the first movement and the Artistic program to the second.

(Then he could do the Presto finale as the gala. )

 

[Mathman]

I plug in some hypothetical scores in to see how the proposed tech program (.6TES.4PCS) and artistic program (.4TES.6PCS) will change podium placements.

But I think that the main thing your example illustrates is that the new proposal will make a difference only when skaters are essentially tied and the results could go either way with just a tiny nudge favoring TES or a tiny nudge favoring PCSs. (And in a very close contest there will always be wuz-robbing and Monday morning quarterbacking no matter what the system.)

I don't think the fans will have anything to be confused about. This skater won. Yes, under last years rules the other guy would have won. That is not so hard to understand.

 

[4everchan]

You know what would be cool? many musical works, especially concertos, have a cheerful virtuoso first movement followed by an adagio /largo second movement which often carries the musical substance of the work. A skater could do the first program (thre technical program) to the first movement and the Artistic program to the second.

(Then he could do the Presto finale as the gala. )

interesting but... 3.5 minutes mvts are not very common lol... it would just mean butchering the music even more

 

[Mathman]

... This would be like Usain bolt winning the 100 m by 10 m, so they start him back 10 m at the start of every race so he doesn't win every time....

No, it is nothing like that.

Who is the Usain Bolt who is being handicapped or held back? nathan Chen? Under the proposed new rules he will beat Jason Brown by 25 points in the Technical Program and 10 in the Artistic Program.

He will still most likely have ten jumping passes (4 and 6 instead of 3 and 7), sand with no more restrictions on quads than are in place presently (he can repeat only one type of quad in the LP, etc.)

He will get 10% higher PCSs in one program and 10% lower in the other, relative ton TES. So will eveyone else. I guess the analogy would be if Usain Bolt (and everyone else) ran the first 50 meters with the wind and the second against the wind.

 

[Mathman]

interesting but... 3.5 minutes mvts are not very common lol... it would just mean butchering the music even more

I used to take delight in finding musical performances that were exactly four-and-ahalf minutes long, for my imaginary skating programs. John Cage's 4:33 was perfect, but we can't use it with the new time limits.

 

[karne]

I like him a lot, but at Worlds, IF everyone skates his programme clean, Jason would probably end 6th-10th, considering Italians, French and Georgian too.
And he was over Yuzuru in PCS because of the mistakes the latter made. A clean Yuzu will beat him in PCS. As it happened in the past, when Yuzu had only two quads.

If clean, if clean, if clean, IF. CLEAN. And as we know, that's a rare commodity. It's a huge IF. And Jason is superior in PCS to every single one of those skaters mentioned.

Russian=Dmitrii Aliev (or Artur Danielian)
Italians= Daniel Grassl and Matteo Rizzo
French=Kevin Aymoz
Georgian=Morisi Kvitelashvilli

Ah yes, the same Aymoz who totally imploded and didn't even make the FS at Euros? The same Aliev whose score to win Euros was lower than Jason's? Ditto Danielyan? The same Grassl whose total score at Euros was some thirty points lower than Jason's? Ditto Rizzo whose score was nearly forty points lower than Jason's? And ditto Kvitelashvili?

Exactly. And I forgot the Canadian Nam Nguyen and the Korean Cha.

...who Jason beat both of, handily, at 4CC?

 

[rosy14]

Who are you referring to here? Adelina Sotnikova? She was at 2013 Worlds (finishing 9th), so the Olympics was not her first big competition. Ilia Kulik actually went to worlds 3 times (9th, 2nd and 5th) before his surprise win at the 1998 Olympics, zooming rapidly up the ranks during the 1997-98 season.

As for the most recent Olympics, the winners were Yuzuru Hanyu (who had won everything in sight for years), Alina Zagitova (though young, she was undefeated that year, and the next year she completed a skating grand slam by winning worlds), Virtue and Moir (who won a total of three Oymppic gold medals and 2 silvers, counting team, in their career) and Savchekno and Massot (Aliona having been atop podiums for a decade before her Olympic win).

I was just referring to Adelina, whose PCS started to become higher and higher since October of that year(and Yulia’s too). Oly was her fist and last big competion win. Before and after she didn’t win Euros or Worlds or GP final.

 

[rosy14]

If clean, if clean, if clean, IF. CLEAN. And as we know, that's a rare commodity. It's a huge IF. And Jason is superior in PCS to every single one of those skaters mentioned.



Ah yes, the same Aymoz who totally imploded and didn't even make the FS at Euros? The same Aliev whose score to win Euros was lower than Jason's? Ditto Danielyan? The same Grassl whose total score at Euros was some thirty points lower than Jason's? Ditto Rizzo whose score was nearly forty points lower than Jason's? And ditto Kvitelashvili?



...who Jason beat both of, handily, at 4CC?

I said IF all of them skate their programmes clean, which mean at least 2 quads for nearly all of them. And Jason too must skate clean.
Last year where did Jason end ? In 9th place. OK, this year Kokyada is not there, but Chan looks more promising. and there’s Grassl, who will try to land four quads. And Russians cannot always bomb, it’s a statistical fact. And quite probably neither Aymoz.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think we can safely go ahead and look past prior performances when contemplating how we may believe a new scoring system will affect results. Obviously strategies will change and priorities will be shifted during performances in both programs for better or for worse. What I’m suggesting is that if a theoretical new system is implemented both coaches and skaters will approach things differently and likely skewing our ability to use prior performances as a good measure of future results. I for one think a skater like Yuzu can compete with the likes of Jason Brown utilizing his current ability to dazzle a crowd in an artistic program....whatever that means. Maybe that Is controversial but I believe it. YMMV

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

If clean, if clean, if clean, IF. CLEAN. And as we know, that's a rare commodity. It's a huge IF. And Jason is superior in PCS to every single one of those skaters mentioned.



Ah yes, the same Aymoz who totally imploded and didn't even make the FS at Euros? The same Aliev whose score to win Euros was lower than Jason's? Ditto Danielyan? The same Grassl whose total score at Euros was some thirty points lower than Jason's? Ditto Rizzo whose score was nearly forty points lower than Jason's? And ditto Kvitelashvili?



...who Jason beat both of, handily, at 4CC?

Coincidentally the same Aymoz who won bronze at the GPF and also, like Brown, beat Hanyu on PCS earlier this year. And with the 3rd highest score this season.

Not surprised though that you’re dismissing him when he’s already proven himself just because of one bad skate (given your stance on Zhou’s 2018 FS).

 

[lariko]

If clean, if clean, if clean, IF. CLEAN. And as we know, that's a rare commodity. It's a huge IF. And Jason is superior in PCS to every single one of those skaters mentioned.



Ah yes, the same Aymoz who totally imploded and didn't even make the FS at Euros? The same Aliev whose score to win Euros was lower than Jason's? Ditto Danielyan? The same Grassl whose total score at Euros was some thirty points lower than Jason's? Ditto Rizzo whose score was nearly forty points lower than Jason's? And ditto Kvitelashvili?



...who Jason beat both of, handily, at 4CC?

I simply provided names for the previous poster who had referred to the said skaters by their nationality while they referred to other skaters by first names (or last name). I did not comment on what placement they will have in the upcoming World’s championship.

It just felt more respectful to use names for all the skaters, no matter their standings or winning potential.