State of U.S. Ladies' skating 2016-17
- Thread starter R.D.
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I don't think anyone would put Courtney on the team if she finished lower than third. Honestly I think her spot could be in danger even if she finished third (ahead of Gracie, say). She's consistently inconsistent and has rather low scoring potential, to be blunt.
Mariah has made a compelling case for herself, and she is the US #2 if you only look at results from this season. Overall I can't quite put her solidly as #2 because she hasn't yet competed after her buzz-making Skate America splash and I'm not sure how she'd handle the pressure.
At this point, to maximize the possibility of retaining 3 spots, I'd want the World team to be Ashley, Gracie, and Mariah.
ETA: because I just re-watched Gracie at TDF, I want to clarify that I'd want Gracie on the World team only if that's what she wanted, and if she felt good about her skating again. So, a bit of a contingency with my last statement.
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I still have a difficult time hopping on the Mariah bandwagon. After one good event, everyone seems to forget that the only thing she's ever been consistent at is being inconsistent.
For the record, I am not bashing Mariah, as I think she's a lovely skater when she's on. But it's downright ridiculous to already be crowing her as the next messiah of the US ladies.
It happened with Karen Chen when she placed third at nationals in 2015.
Then it happened last season with Courtney when she placed second at NHK.
I'll be the first person to throw a party if Mariah proves me wrong. But we have to be more realistic. I'm sure Mariah can already feel the pressure to be successful because of her Skate America showing, and I worry that it may be detrimental to her future success.
For the record, I am not bashing Mariah, as I think she's a lovely skater when she's on. But it's downright ridiculous to already be crowing her as the next messiah of the US ladies.
It happened with Karen Chen when she placed third at nationals in 2015.
Then it happened last season with Courtney when she placed second at NHK.
I'll be the first person to throw a party if Mariah proves me wrong. But we have to be more realistic. I'm sure Mariah can already feel the pressure to be successful because of her Skate America showing, and I worry that it may be detrimental to her future success.
You know how it is around here
Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, Wagner and Gold are still the top 2 US women out there. There is still time for Gold to turn things around so I'm just not ready to push the escape button on her yet. That said, particularly as defending US champion, she'll be in a tough spot in January, and she needs to be ready - otherwise it could be 2008 all over again.
As for the others, you already said it - hot and cold is the best way to put it. C Hicks is a ticking time bomb to be frank. M Bell is untested/unproven and K Chen, well, combination of sophomore slump, bad luck, and victim of hype machine.
It looks to be a pained and awkward relationship between the two at this point. But I was scrolling through Instagram yesterday and So Youn Park posted a picture with Gracie, and Gracie commented and was inviting her out to visit and stay with her in LA to hang out with her and her sister. So packing up and leaving for Gracie is of course an option, but it's clear that she loves LA, and I'm pretty sure she's living with Carly, so there's that too--she either has to leave her sister behind or her sister has to uproot and leave too. It's got to be painful for her at this point.
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I mean honestly this speaks to something else too I think- I believe that to really be the best at something you have to truly want it, and be willing to do almost anything for it. If Gracie isn't willing to leave Carly I think that is a very human emotion and there is nothing wrong with it, but I think that says something too. We can't have it all in life- at some point all of us need to make decisions about what's most important to us at a given time. If skating isn't most important to her, that is fine (and indeed perhaps healthier in many ways than the alternative), but that might be an indication it is time to think about a future outside the sport.
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Well it was not just one events. People were clamoring for her to get the SA invite after her Glacier Falls performance. She has two challenger silvers around her neck as well. One from a strong showing... with a wardrobe malfunction that she manged to not let get to her. The other was not as strong, but still was enough to medal. So, for me at least, it is not about her having "one good competition" it is about her having a better season than the other US ladies.
I have also said I really hope we see her get more experience before worlds. And she is assigned to Tallinn Trophy later this month so we should get to see something more from her.
And honestly some of her inconsistency is stupid luck as much as if not more than being a head case. At one of her events last year she had her music start skipping... which lead to her basically sprinting back and forth as a messenger pigeon before being expect to restart her program immediately. Spiriting around on an adrenaline rush is bound to affect a person. It is not an excuse, but it is a different kind of issue and one I think she is in a better place with.
I mentioned her wardrobe malfunction at US Classic earlier. Honestly for me that was a big reason i think Mariah has turned a corner. Her dress got caught in her hair and it was clearly uncomfortable. She made a couple of graceful gestures around her neck to try to deal with it, but eventually just skated. Her reaction at the end was to immediately unsnap it at the end and take her poses that way. She was laughing and clearly not upset about it in the K&C. And this pic they posed for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLlkmSGsE3U is just the perfect reaction. The fact that another stupid problem did not get to her and she was able to laugh at it, tells me she is in a much better state of mind with dealing with stupid crap. That is huge and a pic part of why I think she has turned a corner.
While I don't think your continued fears are unfounded and think some caution is still reasonable... it is unfair to say the hype is based on one competition.
And really the question should be more "is she more or less inconsistent than the other girls?" more than just how she has changed.
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She fizzled out at the end, but one positive thing about Gracie's LP yesterday was that was the first time I've ever seen her make a commitment to perform. Usually she's either expressionless or has a fake smile plastered on her face. Whether she stays with Frank or leaves him, I would love to see more of that in her skating.
I agree and noticed that she seemed more committed to her facial expressions at a few parts in the program. It is unfortunate that the jumps were so problematic. I wonder if she will just train the next 2 months for Nationals or if perhaps she needs a December Senior B competition to test her readiness?
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I'd like to see Mariah do as well off home ice before getting excited about her (not because of home ice inflation but to see how her body responds to time change). At least she has the one more Senior B. Mariah and Courtney have also each had one bad LP score this season. Also not sure why Polina is considered the savior of consistency when she can underrotate with the best of them...if you look at her actual international scores, they are not convincing. It will be important for Mirai to perform much much better at NHK to be in the running. The top three scores this season so far amongst US ladies are still Ashley, Mariah, and then Mirai. I still say that Gracie performs better at Nationals, but it will be interesting to see how she is judged if she doesn't.
Exactly. Remember Anna Pogorilaya last season? Who thought there was any hope for her to even skate a clean program let alone win a world medal? If Gracie still wants it, I believe she'll bounce back. Would much rather have her (even struggling like she is) on a world team than Courtney.
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TRUE! Before worlds last year you couldn't have paid me to believe that TUK would be off the Team and that Pogo would medal. She had a less than stellar season and she didn't even make the GPF did she? My problem with Gracie in her current state, is the lack of any Fire In Her Eyes. I've been watching Gracie for years and she's always had a look that told me she wanted to win. Even when she didn't win, she never went down without a fight. Remember, Life Is Beautiful? What place was she in after the SP, like 5th? It might have been lower. In any case, I have no doubt that she has the talent, and the team to bounce right back following her early events. What's missing for me, is the outward desire that I am used to seeing from Gracie. I just checked and Gracie was actually in 9th place and pulled all the way up to silver in 2013. So, if she truly wants it, it's still within her reach. It's up to her.
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2013 Nationals - I believe Gracie was 9th after the SP. I also believe later at 2013 Worlds, Gracie was 9th after the SP as well and she moved up to 6th to help the U.S. ladies get the 3rd spot for Sochi. So that "fire" has been there before.
I'm not sure what Gracie should do - we don't know everything that is going on with her training and competing. I'm not convinced a different coach will necessarily bring what she needs out of her, and I don't know is there is a good option that Gracie can go to right now anyway.
I know Kori Ade's name has been thrown around a lot as a potential next coach, but I don't think her approach/personality is really going to work with Gracie. Would someone like Christy Krall or Todd Eldredge work?
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I think Christy Krall would be perfect for Gracie. Isn't she Joshua's former coach? With Joshua's early and unexpected retirement, I think his former team could do wonders for Gracie. However, It's up to Gracie to make a move and if she truly wants to continue, I think Christi would be great for her.
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Yes - Joshua Farris was coached by Christy Krall and Damon Allen. But I don't know if it was a 50/50 deal between those two or if Joshua spent substantially more time with one or the other. I don't 100% know how well Joshua's coaching/choreography career is going to go - but I've heard that Damon has him as an apprentice. Christy might be wanting to retire soon.
But like any other coaches, they may not be able or willing to take on Gracie. They may be fully booked with their current students or they might not be a good fit. Do we know if Krall was available/willing for Gracie going into the 2013-2014 season?
I was just giving Krall and Eldredge as suggestions because almost everyone else is coaching a current top U.S. woman and it might be awkward. Especially at this point in this Olympic quad.
For a wild card - (and I will probably get laughed at here for suggesting this) there's also Audrey Weisigner - but she might be less willing/available. And I think the last significant senior level skater she has was Timothy Goebel in 2005-2006. I don't know how much the time is an issue.
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Finding, or even recommending another coach for Gracie is so difficult without knowing her personality at a deeper level. I can never remember her name, but Canadians will. Who's the Blonde Lady who used to Coach Eman? She reminded me of Robin Wagner. Brilliant with one skater and a disaster with the next. What I liked about Robin when she was with Sarah, was that she basically gave ownership of Sarah's skating, to Sarah. I saw them work together twice. Once in 1999 and again in 2001. Now, maybe it was Sarah, who just worked hard, never complained, and never put her chin down. I saw Sarah fall "Very Hard" on a Triple Sal/Triple Loop combo in Canada and she just got up, looked over at Robin, and Robin said "You've Got This, Do it Again" and that's exactly what Sarah did. I don't know how many skaters are tough enough to brush things off the way that Sarah did.
Okay, the Canadian Coach I was thinking of is Joanne Mcleod.
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Christy Krall is doing wonders with Holly Harris, a young Australian skater. However she coaches it's obviously working and I'm sure would work with others.
Thats why I love her <3 (see avatar)
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Gracie's problem is that her anxiety causes her to stiffen up when she skates. She doesn't bend her knees enough and so she starts making errors.
Why would one assume Frank is the cause of her anxiety? She was anxious before she ever went to him. And she did win two national titles under him.
I wonder if she ever does mock competitions like they do at TCC. If she did enough of them, she might be able to train herself to perform under pressure without tensing up so much that it affects her jumping.
Why would one assume Frank is the cause of her anxiety? She was anxious before she ever went to him. And she did win two national titles under him.
I wonder if she ever does mock competitions like they do at TCC. If she did enough of them, she might be able to train herself to perform under pressure without tensing up so much that it affects her jumping.
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Well said, musicfan and mrrice.
If/if/if Gracie wants to make a switch (and we do not know whether she does), I wonder whether she by any chance would consider MZ and Oleg as a coaching option???
I am not a fan of MZ by any stretch, but Canton seems to be the new flavor of the month for singles ... and in Gracie's case, she has worked with MZ and Oleg before. So perhaps it could be a best-of-both-worlds change to something old that is new again???
I sincerely believe that Gracie's favorite hourly hugs from Jason would be the best thing about moving to 7K.
Canton could be not only supportive, but also inspiring on another level. Two-time world medalist Maia is a Gracie bestie as well. World/Olympic champions Charlie and Meryl always have been supportive of Gracie, so to whatever extent that they are around, they could have a positive influence. World champion Patrick was very helpful to Max when they trained together in Colorado Springs.
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