Strange Fruit, Inappropriate for Skating?

[Mathman]

... read the libretti, read the research ... not sure why people still think it's okay and admit not having read the scholars who are experts in the domain.

I think it is because most fans are not very much interested in scholarly treatises or in learning Italian. They just think that the gorgeous music is a wonderful backdrop for a triple Lutz or a rotational lift.

I would not want to see Nessun Dorma dropped from the skating warhorse list just because we don't like the story or the characters in the opera.

 

[Mathman]

By the way, back on topic, I can almost (conjecturally) think of some possible answers to the question, "What was this choreographer smoking when he came up with such an atrocious and inflammatory music selection???!!!"

Possibility #1. After a few bars of Strange Fruit he segues into the jazzy instrumental part of Sinnerman. Setting aside the words, the theme would be, even in the darkest hour the human spirit has the resilience to rise in triumph over crushing tragedy and despair.

Possibility #2. If you wallow in evil, you will in the end face judgment for your.monstrous deeds. Sinnerman, where you gonna run to, all in that day?

This is the same theme as the patriotic Battle Hymn of the Republic: "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord. He is trampling out the out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored. He has loosed the fateful lightning of his terrible swift sword ... ..." Or, leaving out God, "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice."

 

[Edwin]

There is a composer of classical operas still alive in Alma Deutscher: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alma_Deutscher
Her 2017 Cinderella was critically received when performed in the USA: https://operawire.com/opera-san-jos...ear-old-alma-deutscher-is-a-genius-to-behold/
And the music itself has a good selection of tunes and melodies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO6J0bXuuu8 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loA5EZuQtsA or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q77Mv3bgqjE and more clips.

No young skater's team approached Miss Deutscher with the request to use the music? Alma might even be available for a commission/adaptation?

I'd rather watch a 15 y.o. girl skate to this new, empowering rendition of the classic Cinderella story than to a tune depicting https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...-for-Skating&p=2427394&viewfull=1#post2427394 I've just finished watching GoT and reading R.R. Martin's Tale of Ice and Fire books 1-4 and can now imagine how such a scene works on your sensory system.

PS: the extraordinary talent of Alma Deutscher shows there is still beauty to be found in this world, time and age.
But notice how she and her parents have to fight many prejudices regarding music and the female stereotype: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3YlcHyF9dc and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yf_pbVvIWk

Sorry for derailing this thread, but the music subject chosen and insensitivity of this choreographer makes me feel ill.

 

[enzet]

i confirm that the tradition in opera is different for tragedies... for comic opera, it's closer to what you would see in shakespeare... a recurring theme for instance is the "mistaken identity" like one can see in le nozze di figaro..... there is no drama there... the audience knows what's going on... and there is a happy ending for everyone but in tragedies, the women are depicted as subhuman.

Not true.
There are plenty of tragedies where the woman is the stronger or the more interesting character, as I mentioned before, and I cannot think of a single opera, where the woman is depicted as subhuman.
Even those who are not exactly the strong heroine types like e.g. Gilda, Desdemona, Butterfly, etc. are all very respectable human beings with pure characters, while the men are not.
Who does it make look bad or a lesser kind of human being then?

I mean, considering with what is happening in the world globally with the metoo movement, and looking at the victims of abuse in sport, i think it's time that coaches and choreographers, if not the young athletes themselves, take their responsibilities and stop using music with such connotations. What kind of message do you think it sends when a young girl skates to a piece from an opera in which one she will kill herself because she loves a man who abused her... and no.. she is not killing herself because of grief and despair... she is killing herself because she still loves him.... it just victimizes women.. there are plenty of other examples... read the libretti, read the research.. there is plenty. I have mentioned it loud and clear in this thread already.. not sure why people still think it's okay and admit not having read the scholars who are experts in the domain.

As if everybody didn't skate to anything but opera.
I don't remember a single Gilda or Desdemona. There are plenty of Butterflies, but usually skating just to Un Bel Di, Vedremo - very easy to identify with and something lots of women have experienced and will continue to experience in their lives without their human qualities being diminished in any way. That of course doesn't mean it's OK, but neither the aria nor the whole opera suggests it is.

Regarding other opera characters we often see on the ice:

Carmen - a strong, free-spirited and independent woman who is not afraid to say a resolute "NO" in the face of an armed man, prefering to die free than to do as he wants.

Tosca - or to be concrete, E lucevan le stelle - the aria Cavaradossi (a man) sings before he is going to be executed and after suffering cruel torturing. No way, a man mistreated in opera!
Are the ladies skating to this piece being disrespectful to the pain and suffering of a man, or it doesn't matter, exactly because he is a man and only women can be victimized?

Dalila - cunnigly seduces Samson to rob him of his strength after which he finds himself in the dungeon, blinded, turning a mill-wheel and later ridiculed and humiliated by the crowd, while Dalila goes on taunting him. Not a very nice treatment either.

If anything, I'd see Dalila as the problematic character, who makes women look bad, not Mimi, Gilda, Butterfly etc.
But then you have to choose whether you consider the aggressor of the story to be the strong character, while his/her victim is always weak, helpless and subhuman (and then the men get their fair share of such depiction as well), or whether the victim is the one to be admired, since they are the morally superior ones, and then use this interpretation consistently regardless of the gender of the character.

You cannot say that the depiction of e.g. Desdemona is misogynist beacause she gets killed, but the depiction of Dalila is misogynist too beacuse she is an "unplesant person" (not to be censored) and that might make the audience think poorly of women. Or do you actually think she is a good female role model?

By the same logic, is the depiction of the likes of Samson and Cavaradossi misandrist or are they depicted as subhuman?
I would have to look very hard to find female opera characters who are treated as badly as them, if there are any at all.
Or is the depiction of Duca or Otello misandrist, because they are potrayed as the bad guys?
Or both?

When Tosca kills Scarpia, her action seems totally justified since he more than deserved it.
But give me one example when it's the other way round, when a woman is killed by a man to a universal approval.

Then we have cases of women killing other women (Queen Elizabeth vs. Maria Stuarda, Adriana Lecouvrer vs. Princess de Bouillon etc.), men killing other men (too many to name)...
Generally, people get mistreated or killed in opera a lot, but it's definitely not only the women that suffer by the hand of men, or are depicted as subhuman, quite the opposite actually.

 

[TontoK]

I think it is because most fans are not very much interested in scholarly treatises or in learning Italian. They just think that the gorgeous music is a wonderful backdrop for a triple Lutz or a rotational lift.

I would not want to see Nessun Dorma dropped from the skating warhorse list just because we don't like the story or the characters in the opera.

This is a very smart post. It must be, because I agree with it.

There was a board discussion some time ago about "interpreting the music" vs "interpreting the story."

I remember the criticism Bradie received because she skated to Cinderella. The program was fair game for criticism, and I had some myself, but people were hung up on the origin of the music. If you just viewed it as music to skate to, it was fine. I argued that if the piece had been titled something like "Opus 27 for something-something-sounding-sophisticated" no one would have batted an eye at the musical choice.

 

[gkelly]

Historically that's how skating had treated music -- just as music, with little reference to its stage or screen source if there was one.

Especially when lyrics were not allowed. But it was just as true of music composed for ballets or for movie soundtracks, where there was an associated narrative in the source that could be referenced or ignored when using the music for skating.

Earlier, often skaters chose several different pieces of music that had nothing to do with each other to showcase the ability to skate to different musical styles.

Beginning (rarely) in the 1980s we started to see some theme programs where all the music came from one source or from related sources or was tied together thematically in some way imposed by the skater/choreographer. Which may or may not have been evident to audience members just watching the program without commentary.

This kind of unified program has become more common and more popular among skaters, judges, and fans over the past few decades. And the introduction of lyrics means that the song itself often tells us what it's about -- although creators of the program may or may not choose to act out or otherwise express what the singer is expressing verbally.

Some skaters and choreographers may be choosing their music with the thought "Does this song tell a story that I want to tell?" or "Can I fit part of this piece into a larger story I want to tell with the program as a whole?"

Others may still be thinking more in terms of "Does the sound of the instruments and the voice create a mood I want to express and listen to day after day while I practice?"

 

[enzet]

This kind of unified program has become more common and more popular among skaters, judges, and fans over the past few decades. And the introduction of lyrics means that the song itself often tells us what it's about -- although creators of the program may or may not choose to act out or otherwise express what the singer is expressing verbally.

Some skaters and choreographers may be choosing their music with the thought "Does this song tell a story that I want to tell?" or "Can I fit part of this piece into a larger story I want to tell with the program as a whole?"

Others may still be thinking more in terms of "Does the sound of the instruments and the voice create a mood I want to express and listen to day after day while I practice?"

Agree, and I've always been fine with skaters simply using the music regardless of the story or context, as long as they did a good job interpreting it.
Strange Fruit is the first instance that got me thinking that in some cases you simply cannot ignore the lyrics, regardless of how good your interpretation of the music itself might be.

 

[4everchan]

I think it is because most fans are not very much interested in scholarly treatises or in learning Italian. They just think that the gorgeous music is a wonderful backdrop for a triple Lutz or a rotational lift.

I would not want to see Nessun Dorma dropped from the skating warhorse list just because we don't like the story or the characters in the opera.

no need for italian to read the libretti... and it's not only italian opera at fault....

and so what you are saying is that the context doesn't matter since the music is so beautiful... then why are you against strange fruit...? that's a double standard....

 

[4everchan]

@enzet

i disagree wholeheartedly with many of your character analysis and what not...


to get back to the topic and leaving opera aside, the debate of this thread is


:should a skater use music that has a such a socio-historical context as there is in Strange fruit ?

most people say no.


by that thinking, and considering the amount of literature written on the topic about opera's socio-historical context, I PERSONALLY, think that young girls should stay away from SOME OPERAS....and i am not the only one, I am certain of that. I go back to my first example, yes Thais Meditation is beautiful music, but having a 16 year old skate to it makes me uncomfortable as I know the context of the opera... (Thais was a woman who "slept around" who now vows for purity)... how can a 16 year old connect to that context???? Well, I don't want to know

THe rest is YMMV

All i am saying is that I PERSONALLY dislike when music that has these kinds of context are used by figure skaters of a younger age. And for the same reasons, I think Strange fruit is one of the most inappropriate pieces of the repertoire and should never have been considered to be used by anyone in skating, unless it was by an afro-american skater wanting to advocate for civil rights... but then, should figure skating be about politics? I don't think so either.

I think this post summarizes my point.... and there is no need to reply to it.

 

[cohen-esque]

no need for italian to read the libretti... and it's not only italian opera at fault....

and so what you are saying is that the context doesn't matter since the music is so beautiful... then why are you against strange fruit...? that's a double standard....

I don’t think that people would react nearly as negatively to a program that only used the music, although I would still think it’s a questionable choice— it would seem like the skater and their team still didn’t really respect the importance of the song, because Strange Fruit is as powerful and meaningful as it solely because of the lyrics.

I think the point is, skaters can put together a program to Nessun Dorma that interprets the music and is great to watch without it ever needing to involve the Iron Lotus. Even if they chose to use the lyrics, they can take that message and the emotional feeling and use it to create a piece that does not condone threats of beheading, especially if they cut the female chorus. There’s no need to make an opera program that strictly follows the narrative or reflects the characters’ questionable morals.

But can you do that with Strange Fruit? No. It’s not one part of a large story, it’s a single self-contained message. And without the lyrics it’s not hugely interesting, just some largely-improvised background music. Billie Holiday could bring people to tears singing it a capella because the music was such a secondary component compared to the lyrics and vocal performance. And those lyrics and their message shouldn’t be reduced to a skating program for entertainment.

I guess a more succinct way of saying: you can plausibly put together a program to music from an opera that is divorced from its unpleasant context. Not possible and not desirable with Strange Fruit.

 

[4everchan]

I don’t think that people would react nearly as negatively to a program that only used the music, although I would still think it’s a questionable choice— it would seem like the skater and their team still didn’t really respect the importance of the song, because Strange Fruit is as powerful and meaningful as it solely because of the lyrics.

I think the point is, skaters can put together a program to Nessun Dorma that interprets the music and is great to watch without it ever needing to involve the Iron Lotus. Even if they chose to use the lyrics, they can take that message and the emotional feeling and use it to create a piece that does not condone threats of beheading, especially if they cut the female chorus. There’s no need to make an opera program that strictly follows the narrative or reflects the characters’ questionable morals.

But can you do that with Strange Fruit? No. It’s not one part of a large story, it’s a single self-contained message. And without the lyrics it’s not hugely interesting, just some largely-improvised background music. Billie Holiday could bring people to tears singing it a capella because the music was such a secondary component compared to the lyrics and vocal performance. And those lyrics and their message shouldn’t be reduced to a skating program for entertainment.

well ... that is the issue... i cannot forget the context of the operas and they are based deeply in the mentalities of the 18-19th century, lyrics or not.

the ONLY redeeming factor for opera is that it is often fiction... even if it is sometimes very close to reality of those times... vs Strange fruit which is referring to a real event.

 

[Edwin]

Like with the Wagner vs Coughlin thread, highly sensitive topics like these after a while degrade into a rhetorics contest of attack, defence, counter attack, etc. once we've run out of arguments.

Do we know if the proposed musical theme actually will be used, or have the skater and her club/federation reconsidered their commission?

 

[VegMom]

Honestly, maybe we should be more concerned about the shortage of Black skaters rather than use of Black music by Japanese skaters.

 

[el henry]

Honestly, maybe we should be more concerned about the shortage of Black skaters rather than use of Black music by Japanese skaters.

Strange Fruit however, is not only Black music. It is music so tied to horrendous, real, fairly recent events in American history, that it should not be skated to by anybody, IMHO.

“I put a spell on you” was composed by an African American, and the version I’ve heard at comps mostly performed by African Americans. No one complains, except about the warhorse status (and me, because no one uses the Screamin’ Jay Hawkins original)

And it would be wonderful if skating in the US of A were diversified, to which threads and posts have been consecrated. A whole ‘nother discussion.....

 

[TontoK]

Like with the Wagner vs Coughlin thread, highly sensitive topics like these after a while degrade into a rhetorics contest of attack, defence, counter attack, etc. once we've run out of arguments.

Do we know if the proposed musical theme actually will be used, or have the skater and her club/federation reconsidered their commission?

I suppose we might also consider... and this will come as a shock to many of us who value our own opinions so highly... that her team really doesn't care what we think.

And, oddly enough, if this is the case, I find I can actually respect the choice, even if I don't like it.

"We know some people may view our musical selection as controversial. Too bad. They can get over it."

I'd prefer that to:

"We accidentally stumbled into this piece of music, but now we're committed, and we hope it will engender peace, hope and understanding blah-blah-blah."

 

[TallyT]

"We know some people may view our musical selection as controversial. Too bad. They can get over it."

If that is true - that they know it is an appallingly ugly choice, they know why, and they don't care because they like the shock value... then, with all due respect, my contempt even for the girl let alone the adults involved would skyrocket. I therefore hope and pray that it is a variation of Hanlon's Razor... "Never attribute to malice (or in this case incredible arrogance) that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

 

[Sai Bon]

Considering all the outrage the putative music choice is generating, am I the only person who is genuinely curious about what Moa herself thinks about it?

 

[Edwin]

How do you choreograph those images of decaying corpses hanging from a tree?

A fifteen year old skater should try to portray something like the image of the Girl on the Blue Ball, breaking from her picture frame, exploring the world, before getting back into her frame. A positive image, hope, optimism, joy of freedom, etc.

 

[Autumn Leaves]

I learnt about the song from this thead. Initially, I thought that the Americans are overreacting before seeing the program, which can be done respectfully and tastefully (like some Schiender‘s List programs, for example).

Then I listened to Billy Holiday performing the song and watched her eyes. Now I think that no one should ever skate, dance or perform to the song, especially not on a sport event. This is not a song; it is pain, love, statement, protest... It is an open, bleeding wound and should only be listened to in silence and cried to.

On the other hand, the choreographer‘s strange choice made more people aware of the song and the terrible, sad story behind it.

 

[QueenOfTheRoad]

A fifteen year old skater should try to portray something like the image of the Girl on the Blue Ball, breaking from her picture frame, exploring the world, before being forced back into the frame. A positive image, hope, optimism, joy of freedom, etc.

Let me disagree here a bit. When i was 15, i had already lived under a dictatorship and through a revolution where people died. I had lived in a depressing world between depressed people. While i never went to bed hungry, this is only because my family had two retired persons, which could stay all day at long queues to get some eggs/meat/oranges/name it and because they had the money to buy sometimes from the black market. But the most asked questions in my environment were "What we should cook tomorrow?", "how can we cook this without eggs/butter/sugar?". I won't mention here in detail the cold we lived in, the daily fear, etc. And i had many chances and a great family, other kids in my age did not. And my country was not the worse to live in. People have different life experience and being 15 doesn't mean all have a past full of sunshine and happiness.

I think this music piece should not be skated at all, as no skating could do it justice, but at the same time i don't think that teenagers should be portraying only strong women, positive images, optimism and so on.

Off topic: Frankly this out-cry for portraying "powerful women" /"strong women" get very much on my nerves. Because it might be easier in a western democracy to be emancipated/strong/modern/outspoken ... , but in many societies where already by going alone to a bar you are branded by society as "easy woman" (just to give a banal experience from my childhood time) to be strong means more to survive with dignity and has other nuances as tumblr and co require for the women to show. Those XIX operas doesn't show an ideal world and yes, the women don't behave like the modern ones, but also the society back in time was totally other and gave the women much less opportunities to behave like what we now appreciate for a "strong woman". The rich woman might had some chances, but the poor -not. We still don't live in an ideal world and just to applaud the "strong woman" and sniff in distaste at "weak woman" is quite negating the reality of the world and the chances many women have not in their life.