Team Event: Time to Change the Rules?

[lovaticcanada]

Personally, I would change the qualifying system. Maybe we have to add a team event at the world championships at least every other year (or every year). Then in order to qualify for olympics, you take the top 10~12 countries from the past four years. This way the event becomes more legitimized, even if we use the scores from the individual competition. You can just compile a list of the top ranking skater in each country, and add up the ranking placements that way (lowest placements wins).

In addition, while I do not think you can win in the current system in the short, you can definitely lose it in the short (ex. Abbot/Kolyada). Perhaps it is time to rework the scoring system in the free, to make each placement worth either 1.5~2x more than the short. That way, we do not go into this awkward situation where one team runs away with the competition barring a complete meltdown.

I think that we can have 6 teams or 8 qualify (max) in the free, since we can only have 4 pairs per group, and anything more, will create 3 groups, which adds an extra ice resurfacing time.

 

[lavoix]

I would prefer to see different skaters for each of the SP/LP, SD/LD if possible (depending on circumstances).

While it's nice that Kolyada gets a silver for his terrible efforts, I would have preferred to also see Aliev skate as well (regardless if it was SP or LP).

I'm still upset that we didn't see Chock/Bates or Weaver/Poje skate and take a medal after their hard work for their countries.

 

[lavoix]

Personally, I would change the qualifying system. Maybe we have to add a team event at the world championships at least every other year (or every year). Then in order to qualify for olympics, you take the top 10~12 countries from the past four years. This way the event becomes more legitimized, even if we use the scores from the individual competition. You can just compile a list of the top ranking skater in each country, and add up the ranking placements that way (lowest placements wins).

In addition, while I do not think you can win in the current system in the short, you can definitely lose it in the short (ex. Abbot/Kolyada). Perhaps it is time to rework the scoring system in the free, to make each placement worth either 1.5~2x more than the short. That way, we do not go into this awkward situation where one team runs away with the competition barring a complete meltdown.

I think that we can have 6 teams or 8 qualify (max) in the free, since we can only have 4 pairs per group, and anything more, will create 3 groups, which adds an extra ice resurfacing time.

Isn't there a team event every 2 years as well? It's just not taken seriously. It should be implemented similar to artistic gymnastics or rhythmic gymnastics. A team event every 2 years would be quite good!

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Isn't there a team event every 2 years as well? It's just not taken seriously. It should be implemented similar to artistic gymnastics or rhythmic gymnastics. A team event every 2 years would be quite good!

There is actually a team figure skating competition every year now. The World Team Trophy (country based) on odd numbered years, and the Team Challenge Cup (continent based) on even numbered years.

Well, that is assuming that the TCC continues past it's first edition. I really like the idea of a continent based team competition, but I really hated the format that was used.

If I had my way, all the team competitions would use a format largely based on what is used at the WTT.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[moriel]

I am against adding raw scores, because this puts weight into certain disciplines, such as men. Simply because men's PC have different factoring from ladies, for example. I like the fairness in the current system, a winning performance gets same score across all disciplines.

 

[spread beagle]

The only way to actually make people participate in the team event without forcing them like pearly is suggesting in #1 above is to allow the Team Event score count for an individual score.

Let's take Shoma for an example. He did the SP in the team event and scored 103+. He should have the option to have that score count for his SP score in the individual event. The decision can be made after they've done the individual event. Then everyone will rush to compete to have two chances for a good score. Because ultimately, Shoma put out a 100+ performance on Olympic ice and it should count for something.

Yes, this is unfair to countries who don't make the team event but it may push nations to develop their teams and give their skaters the chance to compete twice for medals.

To make it a bit more fairer they could keep all 10 countries for the FS/FD. That may also produce some interesting final results.

To make it even more inclusive the field could be expanded to 12 countries or even more.

I'm not sure on this one. What about a great skater like Javier Fernandez? All his big competitors from Russia, Japan, USA, Canada etc. get do overs, some even for both SP and LP.

And what about the audience?

They'll be like
- "Wait, he won? But he just bombed majorly?"
- "Yes, he did. But remember the great LP he had a week ago?"

 

[NanaPat]

The problem about this "Team" Event is that it has no "teamwork" involved. It's so individual. It's basically everyone do your own thing and we count the final rankings. It's more like "collective" than "team". We can do the same by just making a Best "Team" Award in any competition by adding the ranks as long as a country has representatives in all four of them. It's like counting everyone's All-Around's results in gymnastics rather than dividing the work.

It will be more like a "team" if one man, one lady, one pair and one dance team skate a program together, with jumps and lifts that count as TES, and the choreography and composition as the artistic score.

In synchronized swimming they have something like this. A team (8 swimmers) is doing a routine, and suddenly part of the team swims over to the side and two of the swimmers start to do a duet. Eventually all the swimmers return and carry on. Kind of like a Stars on Ice group number!

My daughter, who did syncho (swimming) but has been out of the sport for a long time, found it on a video and went "What the Heck?" She looked it up, and it's a real thing. Forget what it's called.

 

[SpiffySpiders]

Lots of mainly individual sports, most with a handful of leading nations being the only likely winners, have team medals up for grabs at the Olympics. Some are pure speed sports, some technical and some a combination of judged and measured. There are no scores passed from team events onto individuals; athletes participate because it's part of their job at the Olympics (and world championships where many of these sports also have team medals) and, of course, because they want to win for themselves and for their teammates.

Luge has a team event which made its Olympic debut in Sochi. This is in addition to a men's event, a women's event and a doubles event (two person sleds). There are few elite sliders doing both singles and doubles, so little crossover exists. In team luge, each country picks a woman to slide first, then a man and finally their doubles sled. The teams are sent out relay style; each luger sits up at the end of their slide to hit a hanging board which then either opens the gate for the next sled or registers the team's final arrival.

In Pyeongchang, the top five countries were realistically the only ones with medal chances as they had the most rounded teams with strengths in each discipline. There was strategy involved: the US went for speed and picked their fastest woman rather than their most consistent, Canada fielded their veteran man who was about to retire without a medal, Germany opted to put in their surprise new gold medalist rather than their biggest star, a two-time gold medalist himself.

The teams, all of them, had a great time cheering each other and their competitors. The was an upset among the medalists - Canada came in for silver, splitting the powerful Germans and Austrians, after winning their first luge medal ever in the women's event this year. A member of one of the podium teams congratulated Canada's sliders, saying it's been a long time coming for them (30 years of trying!).

There's a lot of parallels with figure skating in the luge story. A second Olympics for the team event, a small group of top contender countries with the clear advantage of well-rounded teams, a potential spoiler for the podium order (Italy made a good challenge this year in skating!) and athletes from multiple, distinct disciplines of their sport coming together as impromptu teams. These team events are going to be a part of the Olympics going forward because audiences love the excitement, organizers love being able to add events without adding extra athletes, sport federations want to grow by encouraging national teams to develop in all disciplines and athletes love more shots at medals. Embrace it. It isn't a bad thing and it's unlikely to go away.

 

[ancientpeas]

I like the idea of using the scores from your best 3 out of 4 disciplines.

So say China has a 1st in pairs, 2nd in men, 7th in ladies and a 9th in dance then they use the 1st, 2nd and 7th place scores and drop the 9th place score.

 

[Mango]

I'm not sure on this one. What about a great skater like Javier Fernandez? All his big competitors from Russia, Japan, USA, Canada etc. get do overs, some even for both SP and LP.

And what about the audience?

They'll be like
- "Wait, he won? But he just bombed majorly?"
- "Yes, he did. But remember the great LP he had a week ago?"

Spain is already on the path to developing a decent pairs team. Had this opportunity been available earlier they may have pushed to have that team and in turn, Team Spain, ready to go earlier. But this year it would have just meant Javi gets one shot while some of his rivals get two.

Other sports have multiple runs. Like slopestyle. It's not unheard of for someone to bomb one run, or even two, but have one strong run and get on the podium.

 

[blue_idealist]

The argument of people needing rest doesn't fly. This is the Olympics, people need to be prepared and they are out there training hard anyway, so doing 1 more competitive performance instead of training as much on that day shouldn't be considered anything out of the ordinary. Tarasova/Morozov "resting" did not help them, they were beaten by a pair who skated all 4 segments. Carolina Kostner skated the full Team event and she one of the oldest competitors. Top dance teams are frequently skating the full event.

Tarasova/Morozov and Nathan Chen should have been competing all segments, Aliev should have been skating the LP for Russia. Not only did Russia's choice of competitors diminish their team potential (every country's choices hurt their team, aside from Canada), it also removed Kolyada from getting "rest", if that is supposed to be any kind of legitimate argument.

Given the way Nathan has been skating, it's a good thing that Adam was put in the free for the US.

 

[eaglehelang]

The only way to actually make people participate in the team event without forcing them like pearly is suggesting in #1 above is to allow the Team Event score count for an individual score.

Let's take Shoma for an example. He did the SP in the team event and scored 103+. He should have the option to have that score count for his SP score in the individual event. The decision can be made after they've done the individual event. Then everyone will rush to compete to have two chances for a good score. Because ultimately, Shoma put out a 100+ performance on Olympic ice and it should count for something.

Yes, this is unfair to countries who don't make the team event but it may push nations to develop their teams and give their skaters the chance to compete twice for medals.

To make it a bit more fairer they could keep all 10 countries for the FS/FD. That may also produce some interesting final results.

To make it even more inclusive the field could be expanded to 12 countries or even more.

It will be unfair to non skating countries, who obviously will not qualify for team event.
The countries would not develop teams if they are not medal contenders /top 10 in the individual.

 

[Mango]

It will be unfair to non skating countries, who obviously will not qualify for team event.
The countries would not develop teams if they are not medal contenders /top 10 in the individual.

Well the whole point of the Team Event and any team competition is to encourage countries to develop teams. So if a country isn't willing to do that then they don't get to benefit. I mean, we already see with Japan that their strength in singles skating cannot make up for their weakness in pairs and ice dance.

My suggestion is just one, and maybe it's a tasty one for the skaters.

What do you guys suggest? The ISU Council may read this thread and come up with recommendations.

 

[bekalc]

I don't have a problem with playing strategy. I didn't see the pairs but maybe if it was close T/M would have been used. It gives another team a medal.

I love Canada went all out we are going to win this Gold but realistically their best shot at OGM.

 

[GrandmaCC]

Well the whole point of the Team Event and any team competition is to encourage countries to develop teams. So if a country isn't willing to do that then they don't get to benefit. I mean, we already see with Japan that their strength in singles skating cannot make up for their weakness in pairs and ice dance.

My suggestion is just one, and maybe it's a tasty one for the skaters.

What do you guys suggest? The ISU Council may read this thread and come up with recommendations.

I know that my country (Australia) is very much a “developing” nation as far as skating is concerned, and we were short only one category (ice dance - of “The Dancing Pairs” as TSL called them, which is how I shall regard them forever more lol).

Had we qualified an ice dance team though, that still would’ve left us with every athlete having to double up - given that other countries are able to sub in skaters and teams to rest those who would like it etc, that would’ve left us at a potential disadvantage at least in terms of having no choices or chances to cater to athlete preferences.

I would like to see the following -

- Substitute policy - every discipline not only allowed to substitute but be REQUIRED to. That evens the playing field by preventing one or two super strong athletes carrying an otherwise weak (ish) team.

- Team-Only Athletes- if a country like Australia (had we indeed qualified to all disciplines) DOES legitimately qualify an athlete for every discipline OR at least two for, say, two of the events (or perhaps even three) - they should then be allowed to nominate TWO athletes/teams to fill the remaining spots, whom will ONLY compete for the team event.
This will encourage- hopefully!! - countries like Japan to work on their pairs etc.
*** China, they were allowed to bring a lady just for team event due to retirement of the pretty skater whose name I’ve totally forgot, right?

- Prestige Factor- Introduce set rules - applied across the board - about who within a team WILL participate and how. Such as, National Champ/No 1 ranked WILL partake and is allowed to choose their program (short, long), 2nd is required to do program 1st did not nominate. 3rd misses out (unless injury to no’s 1, 2).
This will remove a bit of the subjective nature of the sport for the 4 year fans, as the “she’s their best so she chose to do her shorter program” kind of thinking is a lot more in line with other Olympic sports and more relatable to people.
A petition could be allowed to the IOC in event of injury (Med, for example, may have been allowed to miss the event and sub in Maria due to her foot injury).

- Scheduling- ARE the skaters getting sufficient rest/practice time at present? Are some disciplines favoured over others, such as ladies having more time between team conclusion and start of individual event? Perhaps a few more days in between, even if qualifying starts two days prior to opening ceremony instead of one, and more practice sessions for duration of games so there’s not the need to go somewhere else (which may not be practicable given the turnaround for, say, Pairs)?

- No more WTT, but a Team Comp incorporated into either every World Championships or every 2nd (or all bar the post-Oly Champs, like in Gymnastics).
This would accustom athletes to such a skating load, and increase legitimacy in eyes of the viewers.

 

[anonymoose_au]

With all these comments about the best skater skating both segments I wonder if maybe the reverse should be a rule instead.

Each segment needs to be skated by a different skater - unless the team in question doesn't have one.

If it's a "TEAM" event, shouldn't as many members of the team be included? I feel bad that because of the only 2 change limit Dima missed out on skating and getting a medal.

Perhaps the not so strong skaters could do the SP and the stronger ones the LP.

Although I guess that is unfair for countries with only one available person...a true headscratcher! Maybe they should allow each team two skaters in each discipline even if they don't have one for the individual events.

 

[Mango]

I know that my country (Australia) is very much a “developing” nation as far as skating is concerned, and we were short only one category (ice dance - of “The Dancing Pairs” as TSL called them, which is how I shall regard them forever more lol).

Had we qualified an ice dance team though, that still would’ve left us with every athlete having to double up - given that other countries are able to sub in skaters and teams to rest those who would like it etc, that would’ve left us at a potential disadvantage at least in terms of having no choices or chances to cater to athlete preferences.

I would like to see the following -

- Substitute policy - every discipline not only allowed to substitute but be REQUIRED to. That evens the playing field by preventing one or two super strong athletes carrying an otherwise weak (ish) team.

- Team-Only Athletes- if a country like Australia (had we indeed qualified to all disciplines) DOES legitimately qualify an athlete for every discipline OR at least two for, say, two of the events (or perhaps even three) - they should then be allowed to nominate TWO athletes/teams to fill the remaining spots, whom will ONLY compete for the team event.
This will encourage- hopefully!! - countries like Japan to work on their pairs etc.
*** China, they were allowed to bring a lady just for team event due to retirement of the pretty skater whose name I’ve totally forgot, right?

- Prestige Factor- Introduce set rules - applied across the board - about who within a team WILL participate and how. Such as, National Champ/No 1 ranked WILL partake and is allowed to choose their program (short, long), 2nd is required to do program 1st did not nominate. 3rd misses out (unless injury to no’s 1, 2).
This will remove a bit of the subjective nature of the sport for the 4 year fans, as the “she’s their best so she chose to do her shorter program” kind of thinking is a lot more in line with other Olympic sports and more relatable to people.
A petition could be allowed to the IOC in event of injury (Med, for example, may have been allowed to miss the event and sub in Maria due to her foot injury).

- Scheduling- ARE the skaters getting sufficient rest/practice time at present? Are some disciplines favoured over others, such as ladies having more time between team conclusion and start of individual event? Perhaps a few more days in between, even if qualifying starts two days prior to opening ceremony instead of one, and more practice sessions for duration of games so there’s not the need to go somewhere else (which may not be practicable given the turnaround for, say, Pairs)?

- No more WTT, but a Team Comp incorporated into either every World Championships or every 2nd (or all bar the post-Oly Champs, like in Gymnastics).
This would accustom athletes to such a skating load, and increase legitimacy in eyes of the viewers.

One issue I see with your suggestion is the 'Team Event only' skaters. The IOC is not a fan of bringing in more athletes. This is something they're moving away from. Which is why we don't see synchronized skating at the Olympics. They make some exceptions for this Team Event but wouldn't do so for multiple teams. So this idea wouldn't fly.

Your prestige factor point would end up in national champions having "minor injuries" that wouldn't allow them to participate. Trust me, those who don't want to do something find a way around it.

Scheduling is the strongest point. You could get some options there.

Unfortunately WTT is a Japanese thing and they will always favour singles skating over pairs and ice dance. Unless the ISU can force them to get in line with the Olympics Team Event it won't happen. In some sense the strange Team Challenge Cup had more opportunities for pairs and ice dancers than WTT does.

 

[pearly]

ISU has gone and suggested adding synchro in 2022. Off topic, just putting the information out there. China might support it, according to some insider info.

Put the team event in between individual events? Pairs and men first, then team, then dance and ladies? Pretty sure it would be unprecedented to split events like that, thoughts?

 

[Tulipstar]

The only way to actually make people participate in the team event without forcing them like pearly is suggesting in #1 above is to allow the Team Event score count for an individual score.

Let's take Shoma for an example. He did the SP in the team event and scored 103+. He should have the option to have that score count for his SP score in the individual event. The decision can be made after they've done the individual event. Then everyone will rush to compete to have two chances for a good score. Because ultimately, Shoma put out a 100+ performance on Olympic ice and it should count for something.

Yes, this is unfair to countries who don't make the team event but it may push nations to develop their teams and give their skaters the chance to compete twice for medals.

To make it a bit more fairer they could keep all 10 countries for the FS/FD. That may also produce some interesting final results.

To make it even more inclusive the field could be expanded to 12 countries or even more.

I understand the wish to have countries see this as more important, but it should in no way affect individual competitions. That would be beyond unfair to smaller federations.

 

[Mango]

I understand the wish to have countries see this as more important, but it should in no way affect individual competitions. That would be beyond unfair to smaller federations.

It could be argued that if you are a good skater from a smaller federation then you'll do well regardless of what happens in the team event. Like Javier vs. Shoma. Shoma's SP in the team event and the individual were not enough to beat Javier's SP score.