The Bielmann spin: Sasha vs. Irina

[gkelly]

Here's the spin content from a program predating the current well-balanced program and code of points rules. What do you think, are the Biellmanns overused or judiciously withheld?

forward camel - jump over to back camel

layback to one-handed high overhead catchfoot ("half-Biellmann" position)

camel to forward donut to half-Biellmann, drop leg to side attitude just long enough to catch the blade again to pull it up to a full Biellmann

camel with forward illusions/sit - back sit - forward sit/side attitude catch to full Biellmann

headless scratch

The second spin began at approximately 2:45 into the program, with the first overhead position at approximately 2:50. Spins 2 and 3 and spins 4 and 5 took place one right after the other.

No catch-foot spiral positions or any extended spiral sequence in the program.

[This was Denise Biellmann's 1981 world championship-winning free program.]

 

[Doggygirl]

Going back to this thread title: The Biellmann spin: Sasha vs. Irina

I still have a burning question.

Has Sasha ever done a Biellmann in competition? If so, what program (SP or LP) and in which competition?

I have a secondary question.

There have been several references to a "Half Biellmann." Is that an official move? If so, how is it defined? Or is it the same as a more generic "catch foot" position? I've always thought of the Biellmann as a very specific position (Denise being the classic / originator) but I've never heard commentators or writers refer to a "half Biellmann." I'm just wondering if that is an official move and if so, how it differs from a generic catch foot position.

Still wondering on both of these fronts.

DG

 

[JonnyCoop]

DG, glad to know I'm not the only one who's more than a little unsure as to whether Sasha has done a Biellmann in competition, because I don't recall her ever doing one either.

As to the 1/2 Biellmann/Biellmann question: I have actually heard references by commentators to a 1/2 Biellmann and have seen the term in print once or twice. How I would define the difference is this: In the 1/2 Biellmann, the skater is in Biellmann position, but the foot being caught hold of only goes up about as high as the head; in the true full-on Biellmann, the foot being caught hold up goes up straighter, to about a foot or a little more above the head, which causes viewers who have never seen the move to say OUCH.....

 

[Doggygirl]

DG, glad to know I'm not the only one who's more than a little unsure as to whether Sasha has done a Biellmann in competition, because I don't recall her ever doing one either.

As to the 1/2 Biellmann/Biellmann question: I have actually heard references by commentators to a 1/2 Biellmann and have seen the term in print once or twice. How I would define the difference is this: In the 1/2 Biellmann, the skater is in Biellmann position, but the foot being caught hold of only goes up about as high as the head; in the true full-on Biellmann, the foot being caught hold up goes up straighter, to about a foot or a little more above the head, which causes viewers who have never seen the move to say OUCH.....

Thanks for the feedback! I'll have to pay closer attention this year to "half Biellman" references so I understand what it really is with a visual reference.

DG

 

[antmanb]

Thanks for the feedback! I'll have to pay closer attention this year to "half Biellman" references so I understand what it really is with a visual reference.

DG

Now i'm totally confused because i always assumed (and it seems wrongly!) that a half biellmann was again a move that Denise herself did which involved the same pulling of the leg up above the head but with only one hand - the other placed on the hip.

Ant

 

[gkelly]

http://members.tripod.com/IngridG/aoi2000photogal.html

The third and fourth pictures under Let's Get Loud are what I think of as the half-Biellmann. Looking back at some early 80s tapes, I see that Denise was not the only skater using that position at that time.

The fifth picture under Lady in Red is a different variation in which her torso is less vertical and she's holding her skate with the opposite hand. So that might count as a very high catch-foot camel (since those usually use the opposite rather than same hand).

The next-to-last picture is of course the full Biellmann.

 

[passion]

After looking at various pics posted here, I would say that Lucinda Ruh has the most beautiful looking Bielmann (pic posted on post#101 by mathman). Denise also has a beautiful one as well. I don't think anyone else's comes even close. I think what makes the difference is the extreme arch in the back (vertical vs. parallel to the ice) and the fact that the free leg is almost straight with minimal knee bend.

I also think that Irina should not grab her foot with one foot and the other hand grabs on to the hand that grabs her foot. It makes her look like she is doing that because she doesn't have the back flexibility. ie. it downgrades the spin.

In my off-ice class, we have been practicing Bielmann positions - grabbing same arm, same foot. And also, opposite arm, opposite foot. I think what a lot of people don't realize is that the position requires a tremendous amount of shoulder flexibility. One day, I was finally able to grab opposite arm, opposite foot. My left shoulder hurt for the next three days! I had never rotated my shoulder like that before.

 

[tarotx]

DG, glad to know I'm not the only one who's more than a little unsure as to whether Sasha has done a Biellmann in competition, because I don't recall her ever doing one either.

As to the 1/2 Biellmann/Biellmann question: I have actually heard references by commentators to a 1/2 Biellmann and have seen the term in print once or twice. How I would define the difference is this: In the 1/2 Biellmann, the skater is in Biellmann position, but the foot being caught hold of only goes up about as high as the head; in the true full-on Biellmann, the foot being caught hold up goes up straighter, to about a foot or a little more above the head, which causes viewers who have never seen the move to say OUCH.....

As far as I know Sasha never competed the Biellmann spin but she can get into the position okay so I don't see why she couldn't do it in a spin. In the 2003-2004 season's Campbells event she did a biellmann mitf. And in the foot work she put her leg so high it would seem that she wouldn't have to lower her back too much to get into the postion.

You have the following file available for download:
Sasha 2003 Campbell's Swan Lake.wmv
(21.62 MB)

 

[bdreampixie]

I don't know in that clip of Sasha doing a stand still bielmann, it doesn't look easy. Her legs seem too short. I guess if she wouldn't mind putting a lot of stress on her back, it would work. Although, with all the difficult variations that SC can do she really doesn't need a bielmann.

I think Irina's bielmann is well done. Not perfect but very good, it has great speed and I loved the way she did her layback into the bielmann in the short program last season. It went perfectly with the music.

I don't think I've ever typed "bielmann" so many times in one post.LOL

 

[kemy]

Sasha can do a Biellman spiral.

Sasha's Biellman position
Bigger pic of her half-Biellman
Half-Biellman, part deux

 

[Excidra2001]

Sasha can do a Biellman spiral.

Sasha's Biellman position
Bigger pic of her half-Biellman
Half-Biellman, part deux

I don't know if Sasha can do the biellmann while spinning but comparing pictures, she really does not come close to Irina's biellman, IMHO of-course.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Sasha can do a Biellman spiral.

Sasha's Biellman position
Bigger pic of her half-Biellman
Half-Biellman, part deux

At Middle Atlantics I saw Rohene Ward do exactly that 1/2 bielman into a triple lutz! I doubt anyone else will do that. I doubt anyone else can.

Joe

 

[euterpe]

The problem is Rohene can't do any of the tough jumps in really serious competition. He melts down at Nationals (sometimes at Sectionals) year after year.

 

[euterpe]

I don't know if Sasha can do the biellmann while spinning but comparing pictures, she really does not come close to Irina's biellman, IMHO of-course.

Irina's Biellmann should not be a standard of excellence for anyone! She does not hold the blade with both hands, her body is parallel to the ice instead of perpendicular, and the held leg is severely bent at the knee. And when she spins in the Biellmann position, she travels drastically. Sasha does not travel noticeably when she spins.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

So much attention to this one trick in figure skating. And it is not based on actual skating but on how a person's body is formed. I don't mind the talk as long as someone doesn't start with how artistic it is.

Joe

 

[Doggygirl]

So much attention to this one trick in figure skating. And it is not based on actual skating but on how a person's body is formed. I don't mind the talk as long as someone doesn't start with how artistic it is.

Joe

I agree with that. In Sasha's case, she seems able to do many interesting positions (some I like better than others LOL - but to each his own). Given the recent popularity of the Biellmann based on Irina's success with it point wise last season, I hope Sasha sticks to other moves. I think we are going to see plenty of Biellmanns.

DG

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I agree with that. In Sasha's case, she seems able to do many interesting positions (some I like better than others LOL - but to each his own). Given the recent popularity of the Biellmann based on Irina's success with it point wise last season, I hope Sasha sticks to other moves. I think we are going to see plenty of Biellmanns.DG

ITA - Sasha has great line. She needs an ugly Bielman like a hole in the head but think of the points that obstruction of justice gets!!!

BTW - I saw 3 or 4 good bielman spins as well as I spins in Jrs at the local competition.

Joe

 

[gkelly]

So tell us, Joe. How many points *does* a hole in the head get?

 

[Excidra2001]

Irina's Biellmann should not be a standard of excellence for anyone! She does not hold the blade with both hands, her body is parallel to the ice instead of perpendicular, and the held leg is severely bent at the knee. And when she spins in the Biellmann position, she travels drastically. Sasha does not travel noticeably when she spins.

So holding the blade with both hands while doing the biellmann makes you that much better? Knowing your posting history, everything Slutskaya disgusts you. What will you do if she wins the Olympic gold.

 

[euterpe]

So holding the blade with both hands while doing the biellmann makes you that much better? Knowing your posting history, everything Slutskaya disgusts you. What will you do if she wins the Olympic gold.

Here is a proper Biellmann (look a the pictures at the bottom of the page):

http://members.tripod.com/ingridg/photos.html

Denise holds the blade with both hands, the held leg high above her head, while her body is in an upright position, so that her body and her slightly flexed leg form a graceful oval.

Irina's ersatz Biellmann just doesn't compare. Her leg is barely at the level of her head, not above it, her body is parallel to the ice instead of upright, and the held leg is bent at a 45 degree angle.

Irina has had some amazing performances, including those that won her two well-deserved World Championships. So if she delivered two more superb performances and won the OGM, I would be very happy for her, as long as she deserved to win.

But if she wins the OGM with mediocre performances when others skate better, I would indeed be disgusted, just as I was when she won the 2001-2002 GPF and the Euros 2005 FS with dismal performances.