The Bonus Points

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Thanks to Terry asking Paul, I got to understand just what these Bonus Points are all about. What came to my mind though was how can I tell if the judges actually gave out bonus points. Paul was quite generous in saying the skater would get bonus points but did they? or is this anothr subjective way of scoring in the CoP?

Joe

 

[valuvsmk]

Thanks to Terry asking Paul, I got to understand just what these Bonus Points are all about. What came to my mind though was how can I tell if the judges actually gave out bonus points. Paul was quite generous in saying the skater would get bonus points but did they? or is this anothr subjective way of scoring in the CoP?

Joe

I believe that Paul was referring to the jumps after a specific time in the program (I forget the exact time point - 3 minutes maybe?) for which point values are multipled by a factor of 1.1.

 

[SailorGalaxia518]

Bonus Points are issued during the second half of the program so it is really critical of the skater to do a well second half as they will get bonus points on every jump. They will get 10% added on to whatever the judges give for the jumps


That was the reason why Ryan Jahnke won the silver medal at SA.

 

[Mathman]

Sk8m8, I don't think Joe's question was about the base levels and the GOE, but rather the "Highlight Distribution" bonus mentioned by ValuesMK and SailerGalaxia.

Joe, to see whether the judges actually award them, you can go to the "Result Details" on the ISU site, where all the scores of each judge are given. For instance, here it is for the ladies free skate at NHK. The jumps that earned the extra ten percent are marked by an x. I think this is done automatically by the computer, without each judge needing to do anything.

http://www.isufs.org/results/gpjpn04/GPJPN04_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

You can check these out by going to www.isu.org -> figure skating/ice dancing -> grand prix -> NHK, etc. -> results -> result details pdf.

Mathman

 

[LimeZest]

I would say, they would have to do something of a high caliber of difficulty, like a triple out of footwork or a difficult entry, a second 3 axel-lutz-flip... or a combination, in the second half of the program. I don't think a judge would give bonus points for a doubled jump.

 

[Mathman]

I think they do. Whatever you get for a double (not much) is multiplied by 1.1 if it comes in the second half of the program. I think it is done automatically, and is out of the judges' control.

For instance, at NHK Arakawa doubled her second triple Lutz. So a double Lutz has a base value of only 1.8. But she got a bonus of .18, bringing it up to 2.1 (rounded. BTW, it is possible for these rounding errors to affect the results of a competition.)

But then she got mostly -2 's for GOE, which, when factored, gave her a -.60 GOE for the element. So she ended up with only 1.5 points in total for the jump, even with the bonus.

MM

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Thanks everyone. Paul did explain the 10 per cent bonus for jumps in the last third of the program which Mathman confirmed. My question was indeed, whether the judges would award this. I was happy again to read Mathman's reply that the computer adds on the bonus, therefore no hanky panky. YES THERE IS SOME TRUTH IN FIGURE SKATING JUDGING.

Joe

 

[Vash01]

I think they do. Whatever you get for a double (not much) is multiplied by 1.1 if it comes in the second half of the program. I think it is done automatically, and is out of the judges' control.

For instance, at NHK Arakawa doubled her second triple Lutz. So a double Lutz has a base value of only 1.8. But she got a bonus of .18, bringing it up to 2.1 (rounded. BTW, it is possible for these rounding errors to affect the results of a competition.)

But then she got mostly -2 's for GOE, which, when factored, gave her a -.60 GOE for the element. So she ended up with only 1.5 points in total for the jump, even with the bonus.

MM

I think she two-footed the second triple lutz. She did not do a double lutz.

Vash

 

[Mathman]

For whatever reason, her jump was downgraded to a double by the tech specialist.

 

[LimeZest]

That's one of the things I like with the COP. Underrotated jumps are downgraded to doubles.

 

[Doggygirl]

How are points awarded...

For particularly difficult jump entries, regardless of placement in the program? Is there an adjustment to the base value? Or is something extra supposed to be rewarded in the GOE? Just curious how that works.

DG

 

[Grgranny]

OK, this is a question that keeps popping up for me. How does a computer know what happened? Doesn't someone have to tell it? And how do we know whoever tells it is telling what really happened? I suppose it's a really stupid question, so maybe I'm the one that's stupid?

 

[Mathman]

No, that's not a stupid question at all, GrGranny. There are certain things that the technical specialist enters directly into the computer (like what element was just performed), and then the judges enter their marks. Then the computer takes over and makes a bunch of calculations.

For instance, the judge might enter +2 for the Grade of Execution for a combination spin, which the technical specialist has given a Level 2 designation for. Then the computers knows to turn the +2 into 0.60 points added to the total. Something like that.

Besides possible software glitches, yes, sometimes the judges make keyboard errors, like they enter 9.5 for choreography when they meant to say 5.9. A few of these mistakes have been noticed long after the competition is over. The position of the event organizers is that this is OK because it didn't affect the outcome of the competition, since the high and low marks are thrown out. :sheesh:

I guess it's like the Olympic gynmastics controversy. Once the competition is over and the results posted, too bad.

Mathman

 

[Doggygirl]

Hi GRGranny...

If I understand the "late in the program" bonus points (factor of 1.1) for jumps, I can easily see how the computer can record it. The program is timed. I'm sure the start and end times are recorded in the computer. So therefore, if a jump occurs after a specific amount of elapsed time in a program, whatever score the judge awarded for that jump on it's own could easily be factored by 1.1 by the computer rather than the judge.

My own question relates more to how "difficult entrances" and so forth are determined.

DG

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

That's one of the things I like with the COP. Underrotated jumps are downgraded to doubles.

But does the technical specialist actually put into the computer a flutz (read flip) or a lip (read lutz)? I think not. If an underrotated jump is so serious, why shouldn't the non-lutz or the non-flip also be serious?

(I don't want to hear about the minuses for the flutz or lip because a downgraded jump (already penalized) is also penalized again for a bad double which was not intended and yet must be penalized further.)

Joe

 

[LimeZest]

Joesitz, you're right. In the PDF reports from the judges after a grand prix event, I've yet to seen a program review elements with 3 flips (let say a skater did 2 flips and a flutz) but they do take away points from a lutz if it's flipped a bit.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joesitz, you're right. In the PDF reports from the judges after a grand prix event, I've yet to seen a program review elements with 3 flips (let say a skater did 2 flips and a flutz) but they do take away points from a lutz if it's flipped a bit.

That's very true, LimeZest but I don't approve of it, personally. The base score for an underrotated triple lutz goes down to the base score of a double lutz (big difference) and then if that is not enough, the double lutz is considered as overrotated and the -3 comes into play. I am not arguing that that should not happen. It's just that I see a triple non-lutz (flutz) given the full base score of a triple lutz, and then a measly -3 (maybe less, if it isn't what some would say is a bad flutz whatever that is) comes into play. Personally, I think the skater should score a triple flip with no minus points but if the Zayak rule comes into play then it's too bad.

It's time to get rid of the flutz. It's not an official jump and should be treated as such. If a skater does a flutz it should be downgraded to a flip. The good news is that if they agree with me, the skaters will be either doing perfect lutzes or none at all. And that's how it should be.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

How are points awarded ...for particularly difficult jump entries, regardless of placement in the program? Is there an adjustment to the base value? Or is something extra supposed to be rewarded in the GOE? Just curious how that works.

DoggyGirl, I was holding off hoping that one of our CoP experts would answer. (But they didn't, so here I go )

No, I don't think there is an adjustment to base vaule, I think it is all included in the GOE. For instance, to get a GOE of +3 on a jump the skater must demonstrate: "Superiority in all jump phases (e.g., unexpected or difficult entry, great height/distance, strong flow in and out, superior extension on landing.)"

So, for instance, an Ina Bauer or hydroplane into a jump is not rewarded separately, but becomes part of the COE.

There is, however, a curious rule (rule #k, LOL) that says, "An innovative element, movement or transition may be granted a special bonus of two points (only once per program)." So maybe if Irina brings back her 'Tano Lutz that would count.

As far as I know, this special two-point bonus has never been awarded.

Mathman

PS. "Superior in all phases...strong flow in and out...superior extension...effortless...inevitable...intensely pleasing...beyond our expectation...

 

[Doggygirl]

Thanks Mathman...

That was as I expected, but I guess I was hopeful for more.

With that being said (the difficult / unusual entries contribute to the GOE, not any base value) has anyone looked closely enough at the scoring to have a general feel for how this is playing out in reality? It seems on the surface to be playing out given high scores for guys like Ryan and Johnny. But I'm wondering if anyone has really "picked apart" the numbers to try to figure out what sorts of GOE +'s in actuality are being given for some of these jump entries, assuming the jump itself is well executed compared to the plain jump, well executed.

(Mathman? Numbers Man? You up for this one???? )

Can you tell I'm more the Management Type (don't actually do much that's useful myself!!)

DG

 

[Mathman]

It will be on your desk tomorrow morning, D.G.