The Death of Figure Skating as Art

[dorispulaski]

I think that would be useful.

Of course, when the guidelines say "average" or "above average" or "good," judges need to have similar ideas of what the standard for "average" is.

Maybe showing videos of retired skaters at different levels as part of the training? But what skater wants to be used as an example of less than average? Even if they're not identified by name and the training videos are not made public.

I made a stab at doing that in this old thread

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?36573-Ice-Dancing-PCS-Rules-2011-2012

since the rules haven't changed, it still has some validity. I don't know whether all the video links still exist.

 

[LittleLotte29]

More than prioritizing artistic freedom, priority should be given to making judging TRANSPARENT.

Not really, because lack of transparency also has its own explanation. It ought to (paradoxally) defend judges against the coruption as the paiyng man never knows if his wishes wre accomplished. Let's say, Marina Zueva bribes 3 judges. How could she know that these 3 judges gave Virtue and Moir lower notes in order to assure gold for Davis/White (don't shout, just an example, of course no bribery by their side )?

 

[LittleLotte29]

I made a stab at doing that in this old thread

You're too great, Doris

 

[Krunchii]

I showed Yuna's les Mis and Zijun's sleeping beauty to my friends, one girl and one guy in a row. their knowledge of figure skating is not more than that they know this sport exists (and dont know Yuna or Zijun). however, they immediately find out that Yuna's program seems more difficult than Zijun's. although they have no idea what a lutz or flip is, just based on their visual intuition, that there are more speed, height, impact in Yuna's elements. also, they immediately pointed out that Zijun's seems lacking in dance moves/style, although neither of them are into dance at all. But they can easily tell whether a move is natural, coordinated, effortless, etc.
All I want to say is that casual spectators when they see something truly amazing, athletically and aesthetically, they will know. They can also tell that something looked awkward or even ugly.
And to be honest, other than that, both of my friends, only cares about jumps, on their first view of these 2 programs. because, they are so worried that those lovely young ladies will fall.
my personal experience, I also dont care figure skating at all (not even watch Olympics), until one day I randomly saw Yuna on TV, my eyes was hooked...

For my friends who aren't into this sport they noticed that other skaters skate slower than Yuna and Caro, in their mind they're all performing all these tricks on ice but some are so much faster than the others but still executing it perfectly, I say that's good enough for non-fan of this sport haha

I think that would be useful.

Of course, when the guidelines say "average" or "above average" or "good," judges need to have similar ideas of what the standard for "average" is.

Maybe showing videos of retired skaters at different levels as part of the training? But what skater wants to be used as an example of less than average? Even if they're not identified by name and the training videos are not made public.

There is actually a playlist on youtube about skating skills that show the difference between good and bad skating skills. It's really old but I think it's really helpful for a beginner, it's a bit long so unless someone is super interested or it's their job I think it's super useful, they have mens, ladies, dance and pairs examples of weak, average and good, I've been toying with the idea of making my own example video for singles but with recent performances from the last quad because I think watching HQ would be more helpful
You can watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu1TFFHNZ7o&list=PL723B645BA5A421EF

 

[Blades of Passion]

The reality is that no matter what system you're under or what parameters you're under, or what artistic freedom skaters have, the vast majority of programs done by all competitors won't be up to the artistic standards of BoP or anyone who thinks we need more Casablancas or Lyra Angelicas for the sport to be watchable.

What exactly is your reason for making this empty-headed claim?

Figure skating would certainly be displaying a high quantity of great programs if it was specifically being taught, valued, and judged correctly. The problem is that this sport/art has NEVER actually had a universal understanding of what constitutes great choreography and interpretation. Figure skating has too often promoted simple "prettiness" or "balletic quality" as being artistic. This is because figure skating has never really taken ownership of itself, in addition to a constantly increasing/changing technical standard that skaters have to spend SO much time trying to learn and make consistent. Figure skating has been such an insular activity without enough objective criticism and critical thinking being applied.

During the "Golden Era" of modern figure skating (I would label this as 1987-2004), we can see countless instances of how the judges really didn't know what they were doing and relied on reputation and superficial assessments of performances. This has always been a problem. As such, although there WAS much more freedom and focus on artistry during the "Golden Era", it wasn't actually something that was being universally taught and understood and applied. That is why the sport is in such trouble now. All of the ignorance and naivety has built up and up and up, creating an institution that is desperately grasping onto anything in order to maintain an aura of "prestige", rather than actually being an institution that produces meaningful work.

Imagine if singers/songwriters attempted to write and perform songs simply by trying to hit and hold the highest and lowest notes possible in their vocal range, over and over and over. That music would be absolute crap. People wouldn't want to listen to it and watch people perform it. Yeah, the singers might be displaying a strenuously difficult vocal feat, but who cares? That's pretty much where figure skating is now.

As an example, Kwan's programs from 2005 Worlds LP is much more artistic than her 1995 Worlds LP, but the masses will digest the less-artistic 1995 LP as an ambitious, clean performance, whereas the 2005 LP is not as palatable even if it's fundamentally more artistic. Why? Because the key factor for people watching sports is athletic performance.

This isn't true. Her program in 1995 had the more artistic choreography. She was a more mature skater in 2005, and thus there are certain nuances she was able to project that she couldn't in 1995, but the 2005 program had a lot of movement that was simply there to fulfill CoP requirements and did not go with the music or have any real choreographic purpose.

I've noticed that you often equate maturity or "classiness" with artistry. Those things are not artistry, they are simply a style/awareness that can lend themselves to being artistic if used properly. Look at Kwan's youthful exuberance in her spread eagle at the end of the 1995 program as she modulates her arms downward with the music. Or the way her movements at the beginning of the program, on the held-out double axel landing, are specifically tailored for the music. Or the characterful swaying movements after the first spin of the program. This program is not amazing (it tries to cram in too many jumps), and Kwan at that age did not finish all of her movements or have the best form or fully understand the music, but if you pay attention it is full of meaningful detail and overall it is more attuned to the music than the 2005 program.

 

[Barb]

And how judges would prepare? a workshop??, I dont think it is enough for someone can be named an expert and an autority to judge. I don´t know about art but I suppose that it is not so easy like a simple course, and about what?? dance, acting, music??? three difficult things, there are complete careers to each one of these. there is not such thing as "the art of figure skating". And remember judges are volunteers, it would be to ask them too much. And if they took the "course" and they gave an explication about why they consider a figure skater was good in her interpretation, probably an actor, actress or someone really expert about acting or interpretation will come to this forum and he/she will say everything the judge said is garbage and this discussion will continue forever, like it has been discussed for years.

 

[gkelly]

What exactly is your reason for making this empty-headed claim?

What is your reason for slinging insults instead of just addressing the issues posters raise? This rhetorical style really poisons the quality of the discussion.

Figure skating would certainly be displaying a high quantity of great programs if it was specifically being taught, valued, and judged correctly.

Yes, if the figure skating establishment decided that its primary purpose should be producing great art and that technique should be subordinated to that aim, the artistic quality of the performances would be much higher. And that would likely attract more viewers. But prioritizing art over sport would compromise its already shaky status in the world of sport. As long as competitive skating wants to be respected as sport and remain a fixture in the Olympic games, it's not going to redefine itself in that way.

There have been sporadic attempts either by the ISU or by individual choreographers/skaters to raise artistic awareness, but not systematically.

I've argued in favor of a separate discipline that privileges art over sport. Unless the ISU develops such a discipline or allows skaters to build their own outside ISU auspices without losing eligibility, we won't see the highest level of skating art outside ice theatre performances that few spectators get the chance to enjoy.

But even with a highly organized artistic skating discipline, even with well-defined competition rules and well-trained judges, skating-as-art would not be welcomed by the Olympic movement.

It might give joy to many skaters and many spectators who prefer that approach, which is why I'd love to see it happen.

But I also love skating for the sake of higher-faster-stronger, all about demonstrating the highest level combination of difficult blade-based technical content -- steps and spins and combinations of elements, not just rotations in the air -- with high technical quality woven into a single performance of 4 or however many minutes, with aesthetics rewarded as indications of mastery.

For skating as sport, I think it's absolutely correct that technical difficulty and technical quality take precedence over artistic impact.

This isn't true. Her program in 1995 had the more artistic choreography. She was a more mature skater in 2005, and thus there are certain nuances she was able to project that she couldn't in 1995, but the 2005 program had a lot of movement that was simply there to fulfill CoP requirements and did not go with the music or have any real choreographic purpose.

This all comes down to the question of how we define "artistry." As this thread has already mentioned, even aesthetic philosophers can't agree. We're not going to

You can tell us how you define it and how you value various performances according to the criteria you have defined.

But others may have other definitions or other priorities of which are the most important qualities.

I think those differences of opinion make for great opportunities to discuss, to learn and bounce ideas off each other to expand our own ideas.

You seem to think that all differences of opinion are demonstrations of how everyone else is less correct than you. It's hard to have a meaningful discussion with that approach.

 

[Blades of Passion]

What is your reason for slinging insults instead of just addressing the issues posters raise? This rhetorical style really poisons the quality of the discussion.

It's not an insult and it isn't rhetorical. I want to know exactly why someone would make a baseless statement that degrades people involved in figure skating as if they are incapable of learning and improving. Usually statements like this ("we can't make it better even if we try!") are a cover for being afraid of change, or being too lazy to enact it, and not having any real points for why something is bad or wouldn't work. It's a sensationalist method of trying to denigrate opposition to the status quo. If that's not the case, then the viewpoint needs to be explained more fully if we are to uncover any truths.

Yes, if the figure skating establishment decided that its primary purpose should be producing great art and that technique should be subordinated to that aim, the artistic quality of the performances would be much higher. And that would likely attract more viewers. But prioritizing art over sport would compromise its already shaky status in the world of sport.

I never said art should be prioritized over technique and sport. You in fact need the technique to create the art (most of the time). It needs to be a balancing act for figure skating, with the art being worth a significant amount. You don't need to be the "most artistic" to win, but you do need to have a worthwhile amount of it. Just as you can't only be the "most artistic" in order to win - you need to have a high technical level too.

The technical does not need to be abandoned for the artistry to improve either. Rather, there needs to be less quantity of technical required, a greater importance on quality, and a less strict demand on exactly what kind of technical content needs to be included.

 

[Mathman]

Oh dear. Where to begin, where to begin?

Debunking some stuff:

4. The most artistic work is the most aesthetic work.

Not true.

Still, I hope that visual art never completely abandons the goal of pleasing the eye. I hope that music never forgets to charm the ear. Figure skating can go in many directions, but there is nothing wrong with a good old wallow in "makes my heart sing."

...if you had 20 Janet Lynns competing today do you think the sport would be more popular or less popular to the current masses?

I think if we had 20 skaters today who paid as much attention to choreographic detail and performance quality as Janet Lynn did that the sport might be more popular. I am not 100% sure about that, though.

Even if arrogant art snobs do not control the direction of skating, their sneering is hurtful to the sport because it pushes away those who simply want to enjoy the skating of today. Why would any potential fans start paying more attention to skating if the art snobs make them feel unwelcome?

I don't think the artsy brigade makes fans feel unwelcome or pushes them away from the sport. I personally am not afraid of BladesofPassion or os168 (OK, maybe a little bit, in the case of os168). When they start ragging on me about why what I like isn't art, I just tell them to move over and stop blocking the TV screen. My roller derby is about to come on!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd...._=1417971634_17b5e0d7bc9b871a0b4f1f313544bcf6

(Michelle takes a fashion risk by wearing an April pink helmet in August.)

 

[Mathman]

But I also love skating for the sake of higher-faster-stronger, all about demonstrating the highest level combination of difficult blade-based technical content -- steps and spins and combinations of elements, not just rotations in the air -- with high technical quality woven into a single performance of 4 or however many minutes, with aesthetics rewarded as indications of mastery.

This argument sweeps all before it. It cannot be rebutted.

 

[Interspectator]

Oh dear. Where to begin, where to begin?



Still, I hope that visual art never completely abandons the goal of pleasing the eye. I hope that music never forgets to charm the ear. Figure skating can go in many directions, but there is nothing wrong with a good old wallow in "makes my heart sing."



I think if we had 20 skaters today who paid as much attention to choreographic detail and performance quality as Janet Lynn did that the sport might be more popular. I am not 100% sure about that, though.



I don't think the artsy brigade makes fans feel unwelcome or pushes them away from the sport. I personally am not afraid of BladesofPassion or os168 (OK, maybe a little bit, in the case of os168). When they start ragging on me about why what I like isn't art, I just tell them to move over and stop blocking the TV screen. My roller derby is about to come on!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd...._=1417971634_17b5e0d7bc9b871a0b4f1f313544bcf6

(Michelle takes a fashion risk by wearing an April pink helmet in August.)

Gosh I love this thread. Both for the earnest seekers or preachers of the true importance of art and/or artistry and for people who shrug their shoulders and say, "Wha?"
Figure skating is complex but also instantly gratifying. You can break it down to edge-work, lines, jumps and spins and go on endlessly into the workings of each, but in the end, I just watch the program as a whole and see if it 'works' for me. Sometimes it will, even with some 'integral' skill lacking, sometimes, even when everything 'should' work because the skater is 'all that' it doesn't. Judging skating, however, is a big responsibility and the judges can't be swayed by things like that. It does annoy me when (even my favorite) skaters get high PCS just so it can match their technical merit. If PCS was rewarded accurately, I think the incentive to raise the quality of the 'in between' things would rise.

 

[el henry]

A point that may be demolished, but I still think needs to be made....

the *casual* fan doesn't care about "corrupt" or "transparent" judging. Figure skating fans do.

Yes, in the 70s, casual fans cared about men's figure skating (to rebut a point made somewhere upstream). Actually, they cared about Toller Cranston. My DH, who could not even tell you who John Curry was, knows who Toller Cranston is (before he met me. He knows more now.). And we had *loads* of transparency then, because let me tell you, measuring a figure eight on the ice is nothing if not transparent. The casual fan just could not understand why measuring the figures was more important than the magic that was Toller, or Janet Lynn.

The casual fan does not care about the quintuple loop/salchow/flip sit spin, whether it is measurable, and whether a judge is calling it right. Otherwise we would just have jumping contests, as noted upstream. Nor do they care about precise esthetics. They care about the "joy of skating". Personally, I rediscovered that through Jason Brown, and there may be more out there like him, I hope so, and I hope they progress. The casual fan will accept the sympathy bronze that these skaters get, and they won't understand why the quintuple loop/salchow/flip sit spin is rated higher. But as long as these skaters get some medals, they won't care. And if more of these skaters are around, maybe us dinosaurs from the 60s/70s will keep rumbling back.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

What makes you so certain BoP that you possess the understanding of what constitutes great artistry? Surely you could explain it to the empty-headed individuals such as myself. :sarcasm:

There is no consensus of what constitutes great choreography because otherwise everyone would be pumping out the same programs trying to match a particular paradigm of artistry. Some skaters just aren't committed to having Kwan level choreography and delivery of said artistry. You know why? Because they are athletes first and foremost.

I'm sure if you had it your way you would choreograph everyone's programs ... You'll save figure skating as we know it! All hail the superior minded BoP, the saviour of artistic skating and its relevance.

Please bring up this "sky is falling"-esque rhetoric in your next "ISU seminar"... and post a Live Feed.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think if history is any indication, people with some of the best training in figure skating and are very knowledgable people are beyond capable of producing less than artistic ventures. No need for examples but certain costumes and lackluster musical choices are the first things to spring into my mind. That said if figure skating needs saving and on that YMMV. The most critical aspect for me seems to be on the buisiness side of the sport starting with a successful marketing campaign. Weather it's thru blending our Gala's with relevant live music acts that will pull in new fans(yes, even people who don't now Axels from Flying Camels) or some TV gimmick that draws in ratings...something on that front needs to change. We have the star power IMO and we possess the skills to dazzle and entertain.

I'm sorry but I just don't believe the sport is dying or in need of some make over that forces skaters to somehow seem more artistic. In fact...I think that would draw even less people if my experience in local music is any proof. The best artistically speaking bands aren't usually the ones with the biggest fan base but the ones with the biggest buzz thru promotions that create a scene people want to be a part of. Maybe it's an unfair comparison because the music scene is not a sport but maybe that's the whole point here.

I keep saying it but what is moving to some of us may be yesterday's news to a new skater who grew up in an age of fast everything and more importantly...who are we to expect them to conform to some notion of "this is how it ought to be"

 

[jace93]

I keep saying it but what is moving to some of us may be yesterday's news to a new skater who grew up in an age of fast everything and more importantly...who are we to expect them to conform to some notion of "this is how it ought to be"

:agree:

 

[Blades of Passion]

There is no consensus of what constitutes great choreography because otherwise everyone would be pumping out the same programs trying to match a particular paradigm of artistry.

Oh God. No, no, no, no.

Do you realize there many different types of Broadway musicals? And they often have completely different choreography? And that people enjoy and understand the merits of the differences? They even judge the choreography and give awards for it. I hope you're not shocked.

There is a further difference as well, though. Competitive figure skating is not purely artistic in the sense of a film or music, where there are no boundaries (assuming you have unlimited resources anyway). In competitive figure skating you're always going to need to have jumps, spins, and a structured kind of footwork (at least for the SP). Or with pairs/dance you have lifts and other elements. The program length is also always going to be very similar. Because of those "constraints", the artistry of a competitive figure skating program is a lot more identifiable. Much of it is about how to utilize the elements in the best way to serve the choreography and interpretation.

There doesn't need to be a strict consensus. That's why there are multiple judges; people have different opinions. There is always going to be a degree of subjectivity and that's just how it goes. IF people truly understand the art of figure skating, though, then they will be able to appreciate and evaluate all styles. It doesn't matter what style the skater has, it's about how effective the movement is to create interest, convey ideas/emotions, and to personify the music.

Some skaters just aren't committed to having Kwan level choreography and delivery of said artistry. You know why? Because they are athletes first and foremost.

As has already been said so many times, they don't all NEED to have the highest level of artistry possible. That's exactly why competitive figure skating is so unique. It's the technical AND the artistic being appreciated simultaneously. If you aren't as good at presentation as someone else, and don't have the motivation or the ability to reach their level, then you do more difficult jumps to try and win. There are many possibilities. It's about the overall strongest combination of both the technical and the artistic.

Furthermore, skaters aren't committed largely because they aren't rewarded or because they don't understand it in the first place! The only way you can do something in life is to first learn about it. Skaters are not being taught nearly as much as they could be about choreography, performance, and musicality. There are PLENTY of athletes who would be far more interested in the artistic and be able to vastly improve upon in if they were actually surrounded by it!

As I've also said, it's not specifically about the skater themselves either. Skaters are being constantly guided by coaches and choreographers. They are vessels, instruments to be used. If the scoring system itself and the judges actually allowed more freedom and placed emphasis on the "artistic" aspects of programs, then they would inherently start becoming much improved. It's not about the skaters themselves all "becoming more artistic people", but rather about removing all of the CRAP currently in figure skating programs that hinders the movement, the musicality, and the potential for performance and creativity.

I'm sure if you had it your way you would choreograph everyone's programs.

No, I wouldn't want that. In fact, I believe exactly the opposite - if competitive figure skating truly existed with as much refinement as possible and as an extremely popular sport, then choreographers should ONLY be creating a rather limited number of programs per year. It takes far more time than is currently spent on programs to make them perfectly tailored towards the skater's exact abilities and as attuned to the music as possible. Extra sets of eyes can also be valuable. The creation of a figure skating program should be more of a journey over the course of a season, sometimes with an additional choreographer providing alterations later in the season. Ideas can strike at any time and there's no reason why a skater and their coach should be listening to only one creative voice at all times. It's ridiculous to think that every program a single choreographer makes is going to be the best it can possibly be.

----

It seems my earlier statement about the motivation behind your writing was correct, btw. Your entire post was an empty slander attempt. It's getting very tiresome, so I'd appreciate some actual reasoning if you want to keep "discussing" in a thread where other people are trying to have a real, meaningful conversation.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

BoP...you raise some very good points and I'm especially fascinated by your understanding and thought into the choreography and its development. For a program to grow it does need to be revisited and things should change and evolve to reach its true potential. I do however think this happens but to a much smaller extent than what you seem to be suggesting and I can see why you like the concept of multiple choreographers interjecting ideas as the season unfolds. While it may not help everyone it likely would expand growth and development for skaters to express themselves by giving them more sources to draw upon.

I should probably add that as a fan of the younger talent I have felt as though people seemingly under appreciate or maybe simply dismiss what many of the newer fans find to be quite appealing in this sport. By that I mean some of the things some consider unnecassary point getting movements that have no asthetic value I find refreshing and even beautiful movements. I guess you could coin me as someone who enjoys the atheletic nature of the sport. What can I say...I'm from a generation of x-gamers and thrill seekers. It's what I know and love.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Do you actually find "point getting movements that have no aesthetic value" to be refreshing and beautiful? Or just the kind that are, say, the quality of Lipnitskaia's spins? Because in those instances they inherently have aesthetic value. Every movement a skater makes is choreography, after all, and beautifully executed technical elements are part of this whole.

Going beyond that, though, my assertion is that you would enjoy Lipnitskaia's program even more than you currently do and "gain more thrill" from it, if her spins (and a few other elements) always went specifically with the music and had more freedom. That's the entire point about raising the artistic standard. People see something and think it's great, but then they don't think about it any further. They don't realize it could be even better and what kind of an experience that would create. There is art that can literally change your life, in the most profound ways. Even something that is "just" meant to entertain has the same effect, because the level of entertainment we get from something is directly proportional to the amount of joy we are given, which translates into verve for accomplishing our own life tasks and goals.

Just as an example of how choreographic perfection is being diminished in figure skating, look at Lipnitskaia's programs this past season (I'm not saying they are bad). Her spins in the SP and LP were exactly the same...they even came in the exact same order in each of those programs. Her footwork sequence in each program was nearly identical as well. Is the music really being brought out as fully as it can be in each of these programs when the movement is so similar? As I said at the start of this thread, the quest for perfection of Art in figure skating is all about discovering the hidden "recipe" of movement that magically unlocks a piece of music and makes its impact felt to the fullest extent possible. What makes it even more exciting is that music has different "recipes" for unlocking that full potential.

What makes figure skating so disappointing right now is how virtually nobody is even trying to achieve this. Those who do try are almost never able to achieve it because the sport currently demands that you must first chase the technical points above and beyond anything else, and in a very specific manner. It's far too difficult to create magic like this, especially in a wide variety. Hence why audiences no longer care much about figure skating. Film, music, and theater give so much more life. Watching the movement of a soccer team or basketball team even tends to hold more primal excitement/beauty/interest now. They don't have to grab their leg and hold it behind their back for no reason before they try to get the ball in the net.

 

[Alba]

I do however think this happens but to a much smaller extent than what you seem to be suggesting and I can see why you like the concept of multiple choreographers interjecting ideas as the season unfolds. While it may not help everyone it likely would expand growth and development for skaters to express themselves by giving them more sources to draw upon.

I don't think that a skaters does need more than one choreographer, but I agree that the choreographer should spent much more time with teh skater during the season.
You can layout a program in 1 week, but that's just the first step for a choreographer.
The more you work the more ideas or improvements you could bring to a program.
I'm always amazed when they say we worked hard for two weeks.

However, I think it's not possible for a choreographer to have only 3 to 5 skaters per year, and do that only.
I imagine the money wouldn't be enough for them.

 

[coraczek]

I should probably add that as a fan of the younger talent I have felt as though people seemingly under appreciate or maybe simply dismiss what many of the newer fans find to be quite appealing in this sport.

I have completely different impression. It seems to me that many “older” fans, are able to appreciate both skaters from the past and current skaters. But on the other hand, some younger fans don’t even bother to watch older programmes, not mentioning even appreciating them.