The Decline of Figure Skating

[Kwanford Wife]

Well, Belbin and Agosto's Green Acres was great. A celebration of the silver medalist entry in the All-time Stupid TV Show Contest. (The gold medal and lifetime achievement award goes to Gilligin's Island.) But other than that...

I have to agree with Mmscfdcs about the sad decline into puerility of Western culture. The tail is wagging the dog. It is the responsibility of adults to guide their children's tastes and sensibilities, not the other way around.

Mathman

People said the same thing about rock & roll, hip hop and in certain cases classical when it was still considered pop music... just a thought...

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Thank you. Skating used to be about the art and the beauty in addition to the complex athletic skills. Those days are gone. All we can do is support those who try to develop as artists.

I push the college Seniors that I teach, to open their minds. I tell them that if they graduate from college and still enjoy only the same kind of books, movies and music that they have enjoyed since childhood that they have not been educated. They might as well have attended a trade school. I tell them that if I ever hear of them watching crap like American Idol, I will come out and revoke their Degrees.

I seriously believe that part of the problem is that so many people distract themselves constantly with television, radio etc that they never engage in the self-reflection that is needed to mature and grow emotionally. In my clinical practice I am seeing more and more 40 and 50 year old people who have never completed the developmental tasks of adolescence. And these folks cannot model adult functioning for their children. So sad.

:disapp: How ironic is this? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. And is so wrong on so many different levels...

Its one thing to encourage people to push their minds & tasts in an effort to experience more of what the world has to offer... but this needs to be reciprocol..

To imply that someone who goes to trade school or watches American Idol is immature, unintellegent or lacking in developmental skills required to be functioning adults is what's sad. And judgemental. Particularily from an educator who owns a clinical practice who probably sees the damage done on young adults everyday who buckled under other's views without having the chance to develop their own... that's what sad.

It is a flaw of thinking to imply that one must conform to be an artist when that goes against the nature of being an artist. People should be free to express themselves & shape their lives in whatever way they see fit... Even if it includes trade school or American Idol.

I just hope my alma maters don't disagree with this post because I'd laugh in their face for revoking either of my degrees because of my musical & television choices... but then, I attended schools that encouraged me to think for myself.

Rant Over.

 

[Mathman]

Oh, I don't know about that, KW. I do think that there is a big crises in education in this country. I fight with my colleagues in the college of education about this all the time. In mathematics, almost everyone in the field of education believes that it is their job to coax and cajole children into developing their own "problem solving skills." The result is, no content is taught.

At the college level, we see the results. Kids come to us who know nothing and resent it if we try to teach them anything.

Mathman

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Hip hop is an amazing phenomenon. An angry black man fussin' and cussin'. First we make it into an art form, then we turn it into a billion dollar industry. What will we think of next?!

:disapp:

Hip Hop is a modern form of poetry. To say that its about an angry black man fussin' & cussin' is missing the point. As is the fact that its billion dollar industry. Its too bad that in our efforts to decide what is art & what is not, we can disregard an alternative genre of expression.

I'm not going to comment on the tone of the reply, because I'm sure you didn't it mean for the tone to be misconstrued or offensive, but given the fact that rock music wasn't attributed to angry white men whining & moaning, I would suggest that you re-read your post.

As a Detroiter (Huntington Woods-er) you should know better.

That's too bad... :disapp:

 

[Mathman]

KW, I deleted the post that you took exception to.

Mathman

 

[mmscfdcsu]

:disapp:To imply that someone who goes to trade school or watches American Idol is immature, unintellegent or lacking in developmental skills required to be functioning adults is what's sad. And judgemental. Particularily from an educator who owns a clinical practice who probably sees the damage done on young adults everyday who buckled under other's views without having the chance to develop their own... that's what sad.

Rant Over.

I don't think there is anything wrong with trade school at all. That is the route my boyfriend went. He owns his own very successful contracting business. My point is don't equate trade school with having a liberal arts education. When we see students at a traditional college who refuse to grow or take one step outside of their comfort zones, then IMO they have attended trade school and not college. People who choose to learn will do so no matter what type of school they attend. My boyfriend is one of the most intelligent and sophisticated people that I know.

When I was in undergrad we were forced to take on new challenges. No matter what your major, at this University, each student was required to attend at least one "cultural event" each week. And they meant it. Attendance was checked. For the first few months the response from the students was that this was stupid. Then it started to kick in. At this point in my life I realize that I grew and learned as much from these events as I did from classroom learning. Being forced to attend classical concerts, rock concerts, stand up comics, a Yugoslavian dance troup, and so many more, opened up the world. Being forced to go to a political rally of a candidate from a party different from my own with an assignment to listen and try to find merit in the message. Yes, we Democrats had to find a Republican to visit and Republicans had to attend a speech by a Democrat, Socialist, or whatever. If this kind of exercise existed in the current educational system, we might move past the hideous lack of intelligence and reason that took place during the last Presidential election.

Sure, we all regress at times. We all like some stuff that is not great and indulge in it from time to time. A fast food meal or cheesy rock music or television. It is when this becomes the entire diet that it becomes problematic. I even bought a Mamas and Papas CD this month. However, I also bought Jazz, Classical, a great Forbidden Broadway compilation, along with a collection of Christian Hymns. My original complaint about the SOI musical selections was that the quality was bad and that the show was so overloaded with the music designed to appeal to the preteens, that there was nothing to hold the interest of the fan base that has supported ice skating for decades. Even the slow numbers were rather drab and poorly suited for skating.

 

[cygnus]

I think they should work in as much classical music as possible. In fact, I wish they would scale back on music from the Romantic genre (Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Italian opera), and give us some good old Mozart and Beethoven. Has anyone ever used Beethoven's violin concerto?

For many kids going to the ice show to see their favorites, this might be their first exposure to great music. Maybe they will come home and beg their parents to take them to the symphony.

Mathman

Well, I like classical- but not the same stuff over and over! I agree on the romantic stuff- (I would class Beethoven as "romantic" too, but he is underused as opposed to the others). I'd like to see stuff older than Mozart even- more Baroque!! (Except for the 4 Seasons and Bach's Air- also overused). More harpsichords!! (there should be bonus points for harpsichords). I loved the Denkova/Staviyski Baroque OD a few years back, and would love to see more of that- maybe even some even older stuff than that- galliards, pavanes, bransles- there's a whole repertory of early music that has never been used- and it's lovely stuff too.

But then, modern stuff is good too- there really should be a mixture- I like many of the rock numbers, (bonus points for the Rolling Stones !) and (Very occasionally) show tunes or opera. A good show or competition should have lots of variety of music.

 

[PatriciaMcLinn]

Fascinating discussion.

Surprised to see tennis players getting more $$$ and fame listed as a possible reason, because U.S. tennis also is having problems. (As far as most folks know, it's Andy Roddick and the Williams sisters. Period. And until Venus won Wimledon there was much written about the Williams's sisters loosing their -- to borrow a skating term -- edge.)

But it strikes me (sort of thinking out loud here) that the sports are suffering the same problem with the broad audience -- lack of drama.

Drama does not mean a bash in the knee with a pipe. Okay, that does mean drama to some folks. But drama also can come from many sources -- a great rivalry, a great comeback, a vivid and appealing personality, a vivd villain, a compelling personal story, a great achievement, etc. And two or more elements combined are even better.

And then, to reach the broad audience, you have to add onto all these good marketing and/or good timing and/or luck.

McEnroe was dramatic because folks never knew when he was going to blow. I didn't care for that kind of drama, but can't deny it drew an audience. But if he hadn't also achieved AND had interesting rivalries, he would have been kicked to the curb.

The very best drama for hooking the public is when the public feels emotionally connected to the primary actor in the drama.

Dan Jansen was a wholesome image (though not particularly vivid) whose heartbreak over his sister's death grabbed people because they connected with it. So, because they empathized and identified with him, they cared about the results of events they otherwise likely would not have.

Lance Armstrong has combined the dramas of huge achievement and overcoming cancer and in doing so has made the Tour de France known to a whole lot more people in the U.S.

But it doesn't have to be tragedy. One reason Paul Wylie appealed to so many, I think, is that he let us in on what he was going through -- the disappointment and the triumph -- while maintaining his dignity. And there are no easy answers to how an athlete -- or a person -- does that without going too far the other way, just as (insert name of athlete who most annoys you here) has done.

You know, another thing that I think greatly contributes to how I react to an athlete is whether or not s/he conveys a sense of joy in what s/he does. That s/he is exhilarated by the doing, not merely the winning.

If I don't find athletes in a sport/event who give me that sense, then I'm less likely to be riveted by that sport/event.

End of mental meandering.

 

[PeaceOfKwan]

decline of skating

Lots of interesting discussion on this thread. My comments come from a fan perspective (I am not a skater, nor have any connection to competitive skating other than as a fan). I'd like to talk about both serious fans and occasional viewers, because there is a difference.

On sport in general:

Pat McL, I agree with your comments about drama in sport and what makes people connect with an athlete. For example, I think Kwan's endurance, sportsmanship and victories over time have enabled her to build some drama that keeps people tuned into what she is doing. Skating interest by the general public may continue to be focused on the Olympics because of the drama surrounding that competition. I'm not sure there's any good way around that. Athletic drama is hard to create out of whole cloth. It usually just happens.

On music and ice shows:

mmsc(etc.) who made comments about music selections at SOI: I agree also. I am not against any particular style of music, but I am for quality music and skateable music (not just background for skating tricks). I do think skating loses some of its cache when too much emphasis is placed on the current pop hits or what the preteens like. Not only does it risk driving away a core long-term mature fan base, but also it makes the sport look silly frankly. The skaters look like trick ponies, and I don't think they always choose that music themselves. It seems to be chosen for them by the marketing people running the shows. So that feeling of seeing a genuine performance is gone.

Ice shows used to be magical events, like going to the Nutcracker ballet at Christmas (however overdone that show is, it's almost always magical). Now it just seems like they are another pop entertainment, that could just as easily be skipped or tossed out by many people. Or traded for American Idol, which does the whole pop genre much better. The occasional fun program (like Kurt's Brick House, which I love as a funk fan) is wonderful. But something is lost when the overall dignity of skating is given up for flashiness. I don't go to skating shows to watch people strip (a la Candeloro), you know?

I also think something is lost when the same group of skaters does several similar holiday ice specials. They're not really so special then, are they? It's kind of like crying wolf - eventually people will tune it out.

Someone posted above mentioning Ballanchine's ballet and the different non-classical music he used. Jerome Kern is a LONG LONG way from Beyonce & Brittney, is all I can say. There are plenty of timeless songs that all can enjoy (like Kern, or rock or funk classics even), songs that say "skating is for your lifetime, stay with us." Then there are throw-away pop songs that say "skating is a moment's fun, to be forgotten when you leave the arena or change the channel."

On scoring/judging:

While I understand the new CoP has good potential for clarity in scoring for the athletes, I think it has some serious problems for the skating fan/viewer. This will have an effect of diminishing skating's popularity over time IMO. One stated intention of the CoP is to have a clear points system so fans/viewers can see immediately who is ahead vs. the ordinal system which had some confusing last-minute switches to placements. This sounds fine on its face.

But the flip side is that the scores themselves are meaningless to the fan/viewer when revealed on the screen (while watching, and hopefully getting caught up in, the actual competition). It's just a number with nothing clear behind it. True, one can later analyze all the little numbers that make it up, but you can't do that while watching a competition. This makes the competition even harder to grasp IMO. At least you used to be able to see which judge gave which mark, and could immediately see that too low 5.1 or too high 5.9 and form a quick opinion about it and the effect it may have on the outcome. The commentators could even quickly explain an apparently low or high mark, in relation to the ordinal system (i.e. whether the judge was being consistent). Now, we are all in the dark. Our only recourse is to analyze scoresheets later, and even some of us long-term fans don't have the time or inclination for that activity, especially once the excitement of the competition is all over. All of which is to say, I think there's risk that the CoP may cause both casual viewers and even some long-term fans to lose some interest.

CoP also is rewarding sloppy attempts at difficult moves, and seems to be sapping some of the artistry in all the point-counting that must be done to put together a program now. I think that will show more and more in the quality of performances, as time goes on. And I think that trend away from both artistry and perfection will lose both some fans and viewers.

The scandals and anonymous judging are an obvious drain on interest. Fans become jaded, and viewers simply tune out. That whole dynamic has been going on for a long time, and the long-term effects are now being felt.

There are probably even more reasons for skating's apparent decline, but I've gone on long enough!

 

[icedancer2]

On music and ice shows:

mmsc(etc.) who made comments about music selections at SOI: I agree also. I am not against any particular style of music, but I am for quality music and skateable music (not just background for skating tricks). I do think skating loses some of its cache when too much emphasis is placed on the current pop hits or what the preteens like. Not only does it risk driving away a core long-term mature fan base, but also it makes the sport look silly frankly. The skaters look like trick ponies, and I don't think they always choose that music themselves. It seems to be chosen for them by the marketing people running the shows. So that feeling of seeing a genuine performance is gone.

Ice shows used to be magical events, like going to the Nutcracker ballet at Christmas (however overdone that show is, it's almost always magical). Now it just seems like they are another pop entertainment, that could just as easily be skipped or tossed out by many people. Or traded for American Idol, which does the whole pop genre much better. The occasional fun program (like Kurt's Brick House, which I love as a funk fan) is wonderful. But something is lost when the overall dignity of skating is given up for flashiness. I don't go to skating shows to watch people strip (a la Candeloro), you know?

I also think something is lost when the same group of skaters does several similar holiday ice specials. They're not really so special then, are they? It's kind of like crying wolf - eventually people will tune it out.

Someone posted above mentioning Ballanchine's ballet and the different non-classical music he used. Jerome Kern is a LONG LONG way from Beyonce & Brittney, is all I can say. There are plenty of timeless songs that all can enjoy (like Kern, or rock or funk classics even), songs that say "skating is for your lifetime, stay with us." Then there are throw-away pop songs that say "skating is a moment's fun, to be forgotten when you leave the arena or change the channel."

You said this so much better than I did -- I have also gotten the feeling that the skaters in these shows have become "one-trick ponies" -- like, aren't they embarassed to be doing some of this stuff? I mean, haven't we come a lot further than "Disney on Ice"? (Or have we?)

No offense to friends of mine who have skated with Disney, I still love you.

 

[Jaana]

Cohen has been the most hype skater probably in US history. (Tara and Mk were hyped too, but they live up to their hype)

Skating is still a sport, and placement is important, being able to deliver big when it counts is important.

Well, about hype and placements, Michelle hasn´t succeeded to deliver big when it counts (so far). Tara did.

About the decline in interest towards figure skating, I will join those that mention the economy. On the other hand I would assume that most people have a TV, and the decline is seen there too, isn´t it? I think that maybe the general audiences have gotten too bored watching the same skaters skating to "same" programmes from one year to the next way too long, LOL. New interesting faces are needed. Also the judging is still so much wrong. Besides being a secret judging, the skaters still are judged by reputation and not by what is seen on the ice in THAT particular competition.

 

[gezando]

Well, about hype and placements, Michelle hasn´t succeeded to deliver big when it counts (so far). Tara did.

You got a point, Tara delivered BIG. Michelle was hyped and delivered realtively big in 5 world gold, 3 world silver, one world bronze, olys silver and one bronze. IMHO MK is not the US skater with the most hype relative to achievement. Cohen tops every US lady in that category, MOST HYPED

I think that maybe the general audiences have gotten too bored watching the same skaters skating to "same" programmes from one year to the next way too long,

You got a point too. Who wants to watch Dark eyes in 1998, Dark eyes in 2000, Dark Eyes in 05, and rumor is even o6 season?? And talk about repeating the Beaver Cleaver spin and position ad nau****

New interesting faces are needed.

I believe Mao has a reasonable chance for world gold 2007

Also the judging is still so much wrong. Besides being a secret judging, the skaters still are judged by reputation and not by what is seen on the ice in THAT particular competition.

You got a point there too, I guess by SC 03, Cohen had more of a reputation than Arakawa

 

[Jaana]

IMHO MK is not the US skater with the most hype relative to achievement.

Considering the Olympics she is, in my opinion.

Who wants to watch Dark eyes in 1998, Dark eyes in 2000, Dark Eyes in 05, and rumor is even o6 season?? And talk about repeating the Beaver Cleaver spin and position ad nau****

The same music does not bother me, if there is a different approach in choreography. Well, my impression is that e.g. Michelle Kwan´s all latest programmes resemble each other very much what ever the music might be. One can add also her costumes, and those have practically nothing to do with the musical choice.

I guess by SC 03, Cohen had more of a reputation than Arakawa

What competition was that? I think that I have not seen it. Generally, I have never gotten the impression that she was held up by judges (that is in those competitions that I have seen).

 

[CzarinaAnya]

ITA, Jaana!

 

[Mathman]

Jaana, I do not understand why you take such obvious delight in Michelle's Olympic disappointments. Why can't you just be happy about her many positive accomplishments and let the negative things go? Michelle has never gloated in victory or blamed anyone else when things didn't turn out the way she hoped.

Mathman

 

[gezando]

Considering the Olympics she is, in my opinion.

Considering overall career competition placement Cohen tops the MOST HYPED among US lady skaters. Besides Michelle was cohyped with Tara for olympics 1998, and cohyped with Irina for olys 2002. I don't see why you only consider a skater's olympics record. I think a skaters overall career record is a better, more accurate indicator. Sure Mk was hyped before the olys, did not come home with gold, at least she came home with olys medals. Take example of Cohen's 2000 jr world, hyped to the max prior to the event, then missed the podium, barely made top 6.

The same music does not bother me, if there is a different approach in choreography. Well, my impression is that e.g. Michelle Kwan´s all latest programmes resemble each other very much what ever the music might be. One can add also her costumes, and those have practically nothing to do with the musical choice.

Cohen programs choreography from the beginning of her career to present resemble each other in music non stop top 100 popular classical pieces and ad nauseum beaver cleaver. She has the same edge approaching her flip/ flutz/ attempted lutz. Cohen too skates the same program repeatedly to the same kind of oveused top 100 popular classical music pieces. Oh the mediocre mass / crowd pleasingTchaikovsky ballet music.

About costumes, some skaters costumes may seem to look different from one competition to another, but the overall visual effects is similar, e.g. Cohen's several costumes of fake plunging pointed V line with an overall figure flattening effect. The big bird yellow color costume seem to looks different from the V fake neck line costume but overall it has the same figure flattening effect

What competition was that? I think that I have not seen it. Generally, I have never gotten the impression that she was held up by judges (that is in those competitions that I have seen).

Skate Canada 2003.

 

[Shanti]

Well, I tried to refrain from sharing my views but couldn't And again I have an individual opinion.

I agree with both Jaana and gezando. After watching the latest Worlds I became even more convinced that Ladies skate is the most boring competition to watch (though the results may be interesting). 2 hours after I switched my TV off I could not remember any routine (except Irina's - hers was different). They were all skated to some extremely popular/overused classic music of the 2nd half of the 19th century, costumes were the same (the only difference being V neck/shoulder-straps) and after the 5th program I had a certain deja-vu feeling - "I must have seen it just 10 minutes ago" :scratch: At best - smooth, unemotional, continuous and flawless, at worst - just a not very coherent sequence of elements. And some *coughmanycough* skaters seem to skate one program every year - changing the colour of the dress and music. For me, it's not any more interesting than watching 27 compulsory dances.

As to exhibitions/shows, I quite agree with numerous posters who would like to see programs to different music. I disagree that it should be classics as skaters seem to understand it (see above), the music of the 20th century is not limited to Stravinsky on one side and Britney Spears on the other. Second, like the music, like the dance. Can you imagine an exquisite program choreographed to, say, Beyonce? I can't. Club dance/R'nB and that's it. Surely I'm aware that hip hop on ice is much more difficult than on the floor but ... the ice has so many advantages over the floor, why just not to use them? I'd like to see something different, not just either disco-on-ice or effortless-empty-floating-on-ice-to-some-5-minute-long-ballad.

***end of tirade *** ***Thanks for reading till the end ***

 

[Mathman]

Surely I'm aware that hip hop on ice is much more difficult than on the floor but ...

What a concept! I have noticed recently that "break dancing" seems to be back. Break dancing on ice! Think of how long you could spin on your head. And how cool a moon walk you could do!

The best hip-hip skating routine I ever saw was brother and sister U.S. novice pairs champions Sima and Amir Genaba, back in 1998 or so. Now that Sima is coaching at Michelle's new rink, maybe she will bring this style back.

Shanti, I have to agree about the sameness of many of the ladies' programs lately. It has driven me to men!

Mathman

 

[CzarinaAnya]

Shanti:
I'd like to see something different, not just either disco-on-ice or effortless-empty-floating-on-ice-to-some-5-minute-long-ballad

Yeah, but try convincing the judges of that.

BTW, welcome to GSF, Shanti!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Jaana - I didn't know you were so strong on Michelle and think the Olympics are the cat's meow.

Does it follow that you believe that Sarah Hughes is the best skater in the world for the remainder of the 4 year rein? and there is no one currently better because there is no new Oly champ? I hope not.

Joe