The Judging Controversy Thread

[verysmuchso]

Most of the judging panel disagrees, and that's all that matters.

good. your job here is done.

And what is your job here? You should be on GS more than a month before you start dismissing people.

Talking about seniority and history on GS, over the years, I never got a distinct impression of you being a fan of any particular skater. As a matter of fact, I even confused you yesterday with someone else. Now you are on a mission against 'Yuna Ubers.' It seems, after all this time, you finally had an epiphany as to why you are on GS. But, I would like to see you say something simply nice about a skater more often, not just to indirectly or disingenuously praise a skater as a means to bash Yuna or 'Yuna Ubers' as you like to say.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

No, DMD ripped me (also a skater) earlier in this thread for disagreeing with the result.

No, you used that you were a skater to give credibility to your post, which is fine but it was dismissive of statements by skaters such as Elvis, Tara, and Johnny.

"Ripped" is an awfully dramatic way to word it. Why don't you repost what I said and ask other if I "ripped" you.

 

[jehan215]

No, you used that you were a skater to give credibility to your post, which is fine but it was dismissive of statements by skaters such as Elvis, Tara, and Johnny.

What about Katarina, Dick Button, Kwan, Jamie Sale, and Boitano? On CNN, Boitano did say Adelina was great, but after a while he felt that Yuna should've won.

 

[figurejennah]

9.75/9.75/9.75/9.5/9.5 O rly? (in case someone's wondering, that's the "artistic" marks given to Adelina by a judge)

I don't think so. What a joke.

Last night, I went back and watched Yuna and Adelina's FS performances on my cable tv. (You can watch it ondemand under Sochi Olympics).
When I first saw the live competition, it was on my computer screen (and it was a bit laggy), and I could not see all the details. Also, all the youtube videos are down, so it makes it so much more difficult to find videos online.
On a big large HD screen, the difference between them was even more crystal clear.
Adelina's choreography was flat out HORRIBLE. Especially the first half of her program... I don't know if she was literally portraying to be a robot, but it was just hideous to me. The fact that her PCS was 0.09 behind Yuna's is absolutely mortifying to me. It is beyond preposterous. Also, people keep arguing that Adelina was technically stronger whereas Yuna skated more artistically, but that is not true. Yuna is a way more technically superior skater, with her use of correct edges, incredible speed and strength. Just because she skates to gentle music, I don't understand why all of sudden she is portrayed to be not as technically strong?? Her jumps are technically more accurate and powerful than Adelina's.
Ok... so Adelina did one more triple jump, but she really didn't get dinged for her messed up jumps.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

But, I would like to see you say something simply nice about a skater more often, not just to indirectly or disingenuously praise a skater as a means to bash Yuna or 'Yuna Ubers' as you like to say.

I do say nice things about skaters. Some of the ubers have said awful things about Adelina, the pro-Adelina commentators, and fellow posters. Even somewhat neutral long time posters such as mskater sit back and don't intervene when people call Tara "fat" and other horrible personal attacks.

 

[leafygreens]

To paraphrase old Blackstone, perhaps it is better that ten ambiguous edges escape the e penalty than that one correct edge suffer the e call.

Someone else who likes old Blackstone: “It is far more important to have a good judge than a possible conflict of interest." - Ottavio Cinquanta

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

What about Katarina, Dick Button, Kwan, Jamie Sale, and Boitano? On CNN, Boitano did say Adelina was great, but after a while he felt that Yuna should've won.

When have I ever said their opinions were wrong? When I disagree I acknowledge that it is a difference of opinion, when someone like Tara disagrees, she is "jealous" or "fat" to you guys, and even when some of you don't say that you don't call out posters who do. It's just as ugly to ignore the bullying.

 

[SkateToronto]

When have I ever said their opinions were wrong? When I disagree I acknowledge that it is a difference of opinion, when someone like Tara disagrees, she is "jealous" or "fat" to you guys, and even when some of you don't say that you don't call out posters who do. It's just as ugly to ignore the bullying.

That irritates me, too. And that's why I commented before that many people here will only accept as "reasonable" opinions that support their own...any that don't are immediately written off as being a "joke" or lacking credibility.

 

[kslr0816]

To be fair, US judges would likely prefer Yuna's skating to Adelina's as Yuna's presentation is much more in the mold of Lynn/Kwan that is beloved by American audiences.

hence most people feel the need to explain the result - that she more or less racked up the points, and in this new system, that's how it works. I, and many others, still feel that her PCS and GOE were too high relative to the competition - not just Yuna - Costner, and maybe Mao as well.

Many, including yourself, admit that there was a lean for Adelina and Yulia. The question is whether or not the lean was enough to influence the order of the podium - it's not about who did what, who was on the panel, and whether or not they plotted for this to happen. In a sense, that has no bearing on what the scores should be.

 

[jehan215]

When have I ever said their opinions were wrong? When I disagree I acknowledge that it is a difference of opinion, when someone like Tara disagrees, she is "jealous" or "fat" to you guys, and even when some of you don't say that you don't call out posters who do. It's just as ugly to ignore the bullying.

Hmm yeah as much as I am pro-Yuna, I don't think those comments against Adelina and her fans are appropriate. That said, "Yuna fans" isn't really a nice name either. As for the pro-Yuna commentators I've mentioned, some people have also disregarded their opinions - saying that it's the judges who matter. I guess each side has reasonable points to argue, but this would really just all go away if the judges revealed how they gave the scores and be held responsible/accountable for their judging. The veil of secrecy is seriously not helping this sport. Not in the slightest bit.

 

[kslr0816]

When have I ever said their opinions were wrong? When I disagree I acknowledge that it is a difference of opinion, when someone like Tara disagrees, she is "jealous" or "fat" to you guys, and even when some of you don't say that you don't call out posters who do. It's just as ugly to ignore the bullying.

fair enough. in this latest instance (economist), i have a difference of opinion. lol.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I guess each side has reasonable points to argue, but this would really just all go away if the judges revealed how they gave the scores and be held responsible/accountable for their judging. The veil of secrecy is seriously not helping this sport. Not in the slightest bit.

I 100% agree. When they announced that decision 10 years ago (judging secrecy to protect them from pressure) it seemed like a step backwards. At the very least the protocols shouldn't mix up the judges so we can at least see how a particular judge scored one skater versus another.

 

[vegarin]

It's pot calling kettle black on both sides, and I know which side I fall on, but I find it a bit jarring that some people think it wouldn't even raise any eyebrows at all that Adelina got higher PCS than Carolina, or that Julia got even higher PCS than Mao in free, even though Julia had way more visible mistakes and received negative GOEs on two elements. Or even still that Julia (not even Adelina) also had more 3+ GOEs than Caro's and Yuna's combined, when neither Adelina nor Julia has ever received these many 3 GOEs in their lives. They are at least eyebrow-raising. Ignoring it completely and saying everything was perfectly legit? That seems like a head in the sand move. At least those who say the judges may have gotten carried away by the audience enthusiasm admit that there was some abnormal scoring.

And for every Scott and Tara insisting Adelina won over technical score, we have Witt and Sonia Bianchetti publicly insisting the judging was disgraceful. I don't know whose words should have more weights, but at the same time, I think it would be much easier for these figure skating insiders simply to go with the judging than come out right and actually condemn the judging. They weren't disagreeing with the placements or complaining that their favourites didn't win -- they stated outright that there was a problem with judging. If there were just few usual negligible judging issues, I doubt they would risk saying something like this out loud.

 

[mskater93]

To be fair, US judges would likely prefer Yuna's skating to Adelina's as Yuna's presentation is much more in the mold of Lynn/Kwan that is beloved by American audiences.

These judges had very specific reasons as to what their changes in the scores would be (some include the technical elements which were overlooked). Overall, though, it has nothing to do with "what I like better" it was about criteria. One specific criteria which everyone is ignoring in the SS mark discussion is "effortless flow and glide" which Kostner and Kim have that Sotnikova still needs to develop. One of the judges I know called that out specifically as an issue. The comment was to strip away all the elements of the program and just watch the skating in between in terms of HOW they skate and you will understand. If you don't, then I would say you are missing the entire point of figure SKATING. In the same way Patrick Chan "deserves" his huge marks over many others in PCS categories, so too, should Kostner and Kim in comparison.

 

[jehan215]

I 100% agree. When they announced that decision 10 years ago (judging secrecy to protect them from pressure) it seemed like a step backwards. At the very least the protocols shouldn't mix up the judges so we can at least see how a particular judge scored one skater versus another.

Finally! We agree on something!

A speed skater (Cinquanta) devising a scoring system was not the brightest idea

 

[mikiandorocks]

And for every Scott and Tara insisting Adelina won over technical score, we have Witt and Sonia Bianchetti publicly insisting the judging was disgraceful.

Stojko also thought Adelina was the right winner.

 

[kslr0816]

These judges had very specific reasons as to what their changes in the scores would be (some include the technical elements which were overlooked). Overall, though, it has nothing to do with "what I like better" it was about criteria. One specific criteria which everyone is ignoring in the SS mark discussion is "effortless flow and glide" which Kostner and Kim have that Sotnikova still needs to develop. One of the judges I know called that out specifically as an issue. The comment was to strip away all the elements of the program and just watch the skating in between in terms of HOW they skate and you will understand. If you don't, then I would say you are missing the entire point of figure SKATING. In the same way Patrick Chan "deserves" his huge marks over many others in PCS categories, so too, should Kostner and Kim in comparison.

when most points are brought up about PCS and GOE, daisy seems to imply that whoever is uncomfortable/in disagreement with the results does not understand the current ruleset. otherwise how else could they disagree?

 

[kslr0816]

Stojko also thought Adelina was the right winner.

i think the point was that for every skater who agrees, there is one who disagrees.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

These judges had very specific reasons as to what their changes in the scores would be (some include the technical elements which were overlooked). Overall, though, it has nothing to do with "what I like better" it was about criteria. One specific criteria which everyone is ignoring in the SS mark discussion is "effortless flow and glide" which Kostner and Kim have that Sotnikova still needs to develop. One of the judges I know called that out specifically as an issue. The comment was to strip away all the elements of the program and just watch the skating in between in terms of HOW they skate and you will understand. If you don't, then I would say you are missing the entire point of figure SKATING. In the same way Patrick Chan "deserves" his huge marks over many others in PCS categories, so too, should Kostner and Kim in comparison.

Here is the full list of SS:
Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement
Flow and effortless glide
Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, turns
Power/energy and acceleration
Mastery of multi-directional skating
Mastery of one-foot skating

As a skater, would you agree that, of the top women, Adelina would probably rank 4th in SS after Yuna, Mao, and Caro? And if so, how far back would score Adelina relative to those three yet still keep Adelina ahead of inferior skaters?

 

[SkateToronto]

Stojko also thought Adelina was the right winner.

So did Paul Wylie.