The level of difficulty of 3/3s

[engrsktr]

Re: The level of difficulty of 3/3s

mathman, good question.... I thought about it for a bit and here's my take on it....

I think that the elements are taught in the order that they were invented (somewhat...I'm not sure on the exact order of invention) ... the importance in that comment is this:
in the beginning, these moves were invented as they came naturally to movement and skill.... so in the beginning there was the waltz jump... a fairly simple skill with a rhythm and a natural movement. then came the variation on the waltz jump (or axel) - the salchow... and so on.... so I think that looking at how the jumps came to be is in essence determining their difficulty. as more skaters learned these basic jumps, they built on them as the general skills of these skaters increased....think Darwinism in skating.....so I think this is what makes some jumps "more difficult" than others as far as having to place a value on them. so there is an order to things even though it may seem very abstract in it's compilation.
of course, as has been said before, some jumps turn out to be easier for some than others.... there are always exceptions
however, I'm sure the "majority" of skaters out there would say that doing a triple salchow is much easier than the triple lutz...
I think the difficulty is not so much in if it's an edge jump or not but how the body is positioned on the take-off... if the jump happens to take off from an edge or a toe pick, so be it, but the position of the body and the mechanics are what determine difficulty.

 

[Joesitz]

Re: The level of difficulty of 3/3s

Mathman - I believe a majority of skaters have a difficult time with the back inside edge in basics. If you think about it, it is clumsy to just skate backwards on inside edges - the outside edges are soooo much easier.

The toe loop is on that easier back outside edge while the salchow and the flip are on that more difficult back inside edge. Hence, imo, the salchow and the flip are more difficult jumps than the toe loop.

The lutz is indeed a difficult jump because although it is executed from a back outside edge, one has to rotate the opposite direction after take off whereas the toe loop one rotates with the natural flow of the skater's direction.

The forward outside take-off of the axel is another kind of discussion which I will not go into here.

Back at the lutz, I believe it was Volchkova who said she is most at ease with that jump (and she certainly has the best).
This brings me to my original point that all the elements in figure skating are subjectively geared to individual skaters and what they find as more difficult than others.

Joe

 

[ApacheApache]

Re: The level of difficulty of 3/3s

Thanks to Engsktr, Doris, Joe and others for the info.

Let's talk about COP. It seems to be rather ungenerous in rewarding the points for the 3/3 combo. I read somewhere that it's worth more landing 2 separate triples with one being in a 3/2 combo than landing a 3/3 combo? Did I miss something? Does this mean they want to balance the sport so that it won't degenerate into jump fests?

 

[DORISPULASKI]

Re: The level of difficulty of 3/3s

ApacheApache, That does not sound right to me.What is true is that if you do a triple lutz triple loop combination, you get exactly the same points as if you did a triple lutz and later in the program a triple loop. You can only do 2 combinations. You can only do each jump once alone and once in combinations. What is really discouraged is sequences as the sum of the jumps in a sequence is multiplied by 0.8, whereas stand alone jumps are multipled by 1.0.
dpp

 

[Joesitz]

Re: The level of difficulty of 3/3s

Doris et al - I have not kept up with the CoP listings of jump value (single and combo) if there are any, so please help.

I was thinking of Tara. What if a skater did a single triple loop jump and for a combo did a pair of consecutive triple loop jumps? That would mean 3 triple loop jumps in one program.

Would this be legal?

Joe

 

[EllynK]

Re: The level of difficulty of 3/3s

Actually, the order in which the basic jumps were invented was approximately:

waltz jump (18th century or very early 19th)
axel (Axel Paulsen, 1880s)
salchow (Ulrich Salchow, early 1900s)
lutz (Alois Lutz, shortly before WWI)
loop (Werner Rittberger, not sure whether before or after the war)
toe loop and flip (Robert? Bruce? Mapes, 1920s)

 

[mpal2]

Re: The level of difficulty of 3/3s

I had asked this question on the spiral analysis using the code of points, but it never got answered. Does anyone know?

The COP states that the Senior ladies can do a maximum of 7 jump elements in their free program including an axel type jump. One jump element could actually consist of a combo or sequence correct? Otherwise the ladies would be doing 7 triple programs without an axel jump in their program if they did not have a 3/3. And I would miss the double axel a lot. Does this mean the ladies need a 3/3 to get 7 triples and a double axel in the 7 jump element requirement or is it the same rules as it is now where they can get 7 triples and a double axel without the 3/3? It's almost 2 am and I can't think right now. The code of points is too confusing to read at 2 in the morning.

 

[ApacheApache]

Re: The level of difficulty of 3/3s

DORISPULASKI:"ApacheApache, That does not sound right to me.What is true is that if you do a triple lutz triple loop combination, you get exactly the same points as if you did a triple lutz and later in the program a triple loop. You can only do 2 combinations. You can only do each jump once alone and once in combinations. What is really discouraged is sequences as the sum of the jumps in a sequence is multiplied by 0.8, whereas stand alone jumps are multipled by 1.0.
dpp"

I see, thanks for the clarification. Still, it's really not worth the risk to do a 3/3 when you can get equal points by doing them separately. If that's not unfair enough, it's even worse for jumps in sequence as you've mentioned. On the one hand I'm secretly smiling because it's good for Michelle, on the other hand I think it's very unfair.