I know that the SP is 2:40 and the LP is 4:00 for the ladies. This is the first time that I've heard of a deduction for being off. Has this happened before? Is there a deduction for skating 2:38? Are skaters typically so good that they get their programs down to the second all the time? Just curious. This is all new to me.
The Time Rule
- Thread starter tharrtell
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- Jul 27, 2003
Acutally, it's 2:30 (but one can go 10 seconds more), and 4:00, + or - 10 seconds. Apparently, the timing begins when the skater first moves, so If kwan was moving for 2:42 like Jan Hoffman claimes, then the deduction was warranted. But still, 
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TV
.TV
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- Jul 27, 2003
lol, no, for SP, it's 2:30 + 10 seconds. Apparently, she extended her music so it's just at 2:40. I don't think anyone actually expects to get a time deduction.tharrtell said:
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- Jul 27, 2003
I have another question: Was the .1 deduction mandatory for all of the judges and was it taken it off? Wow, if that is the case...she still would have had a 5.2 for technical merit....and 4 6.0s for presentation! What a strange judging panel.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2004
i have read the clock for when a program actually starts is when the skater makes the first move with his or her body. Therefore, Michelle couldn't have started moving a millimeter until herbrain heard music which would have been a good second after the music started - which is exactly 2:40.
Nest, Jan Hoffman was doing this manually, so he probably counted from the end of the music until his finger thought she stopped. There is another fraction of a second that at the most leaves her at 2:40 and a fraction.
the judges should have accounted for any negative effect Michelle caused in her program.
It's awfully petty to jump on her in this manner. It doesn't look like the judges would have found her supposed error to be particularly damaging and I don't think the crowd found her movment after the music to be reason to place her in 4th and take off a whooping .2 from the total score.
Nest, Jan Hoffman was doing this manually, so he probably counted from the end of the music until his finger thought she stopped. There is another fraction of a second that at the most leaves her at 2:40 and a fraction.
the judges should have accounted for any negative effect Michelle caused in her program.
It's awfully petty to jump on her in this manner. It doesn't look like the judges would have found her supposed error to be particularly damaging and I don't think the crowd found her movment after the music to be reason to place her in 4th and take off a whooping .2 from the total score.
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- Jul 27, 2003
Hoffman was also one of 3 judges that gave Michelle the nod in Nagano over Lipinski. He scored Michelle 5.8/5.9 and Tara 5.8/5.8.
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- Jul 27, 2003
I've heard him in interviews, and it seems to me that he is a man of strong character who judges by his conscience.
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- Dec 27, 2003
I don't think there's any conspiracy going on here, and I'm sure Hoffman was just trying to do his job. I happen to think he was wrong about the timing, but we will find out for sure, won't we? Regardless, I'm sure he really thinks that she went over and was just trying to follow the rules. The thing that gets me is that she doesn't even start moving right with the music; she starts a good 2-3 seconds after the music starts, so even if she finished off her music, that still gives her a good 2-3 second cushion to stop moving. Which is why I'm very suspicious of the idea that she went over. But if she did, I'm all for the deduction - after all, that's the rules.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
Mich...
Just out of curiosity, why do you think he was wrong? 2 seconds is a VERY short period of time, and I assume the music is a good "marker" for the skater. When the skater cannot hear the music at the end, can't you see how a time infraction is highly possible? Sounds to me like Michelle chose this risk herself, and is now paying the price.
I give Michelle a TON and more of credit for all her success over the years. I'm right there with others who have speculated that she will never make this mistake again. I'm just not jumping on the "blame the stop watch guy" bandwagon just yet. I can easily see how a time infraction with this program COULD happen. I can only assume the infraction did happen. Of all the ways the judging system could "screw" people, this one didn't even involve an actual judge. So I think it's a stretch to just chalk this up to "Michelle is being held down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I have no idea - maybe that's the case. Just seems unlikely to me. Maybe I'm too logical to be a FS fan LOL.
We need to get BACK to the World's Drinking Game. Especially since I have to do a bunch of food prep and house cleaning tonight for a dog training exercise being held, against my will, on a major figure skating day, at my house tomorrow. I plan to get 100% of the prep done tonight, make a list for my DH, and tune into Eurosport tomorrow AM. Lord help the first person who disrupts my listensing pleasure. (That will be DH, but I will forgive him as long as it's not durring the final flight LOL)
DG
Just out of curiosity, why do you think he was wrong? 2 seconds is a VERY short period of time, and I assume the music is a good "marker" for the skater. When the skater cannot hear the music at the end, can't you see how a time infraction is highly possible? Sounds to me like Michelle chose this risk herself, and is now paying the price.
I give Michelle a TON and more of credit for all her success over the years. I'm right there with others who have speculated that she will never make this mistake again. I'm just not jumping on the "blame the stop watch guy" bandwagon just yet. I can easily see how a time infraction with this program COULD happen. I can only assume the infraction did happen. Of all the ways the judging system could "screw" people, this one didn't even involve an actual judge. So I think it's a stretch to just chalk this up to "Michelle is being held down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I have no idea - maybe that's the case. Just seems unlikely to me. Maybe I'm too logical to be a FS fan LOL.
We need to get BACK to the World's Drinking Game. Especially since I have to do a bunch of food prep and house cleaning tonight for a dog training exercise being held, against my will, on a major figure skating day, at my house tomorrow. I plan to get 100% of the prep done tonight, make a list for my DH, and tune into Eurosport tomorrow AM. Lord help the first person who disrupts my listensing pleasure. (That will be DH, but I will forgive him as long as it's not durring the final flight LOL)
DG
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
My question about the Time rule is how come it is not applied to everyone. S &Z also finished the WONDERFUL LP after their music was done. There were no Deductions at all. Just about Straight 6.0's across the board. Though, they deserved their marks with that great skate. But, it was very obvious they did about 3 or 4 poses after the music finished before they did their final pose. Not bashing S &Z. They are my favorite pair skaters. The best I have seen sense G & G.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
Panther...
It's NOT about the length of the recorded music, but the length of the actual skate if I understand correctly what's been posted about this rule. I have no idea what other skaters may or may not have been deducted appropriately regarding this rule. BUT..in my opinion a smart skater would have a music cut that they they could HEAR at the end, and leave themselves some room. Finishing after the music does not appear to be the issue here. The issue appears to be the length of time, by the stopwathch, from the moment a skater starts to skate to the moment they achieve a "stop" at the final pose.
Am I wildly missing something here????
DG
It's NOT about the length of the recorded music, but the length of the actual skate if I understand correctly what's been posted about this rule. I have no idea what other skaters may or may not have been deducted appropriately regarding this rule. BUT..in my opinion a smart skater would have a music cut that they they could HEAR at the end, and leave themselves some room. Finishing after the music does not appear to be the issue here. The issue appears to be the length of time, by the stopwathch, from the moment a skater starts to skate to the moment they achieve a "stop" at the final pose.
Am I wildly missing something here????
DG
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Shen and Zhou might have gone on after their music stopped, but the whole thing was still under the time limit. Idon't know.
But the question I still have is, how is it possible that neither Michelle nor her coach, choreographers, advisors, etc., etc., etc., never sat down and timed the music to see how long it was? She has been performing to this same cut of music for two years. Why is it suddenly longer than it was all the other times that she has skated to it? Do CD players run slow in Germany?
Mathman
But the question I still have is, how is it possible that neither Michelle nor her coach, choreographers, advisors, etc., etc., etc., never sat down and timed the music to see how long it was? She has been performing to this same cut of music for two years. Why is it suddenly longer than it was all the other times that she has skated to it? Do CD players run slow in Germany?
Mathman
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
Hi Mathman..
You have been SO incredibly nice to me since I joined Goldenskate several months ago. You are also our Logical, Rational Mathman around here, and there is clearly something I'm not getting LOL. I have to believe a bunch of people are BARFING in their own throwns right now because I can't seem to stop myself from expressing my thoughts and understandings about this issue at least 5 billion time. (the excuse I will use is that repeating my opinion on this topic beats the cr@p out of cleaning my kitchen!!)
I don't think this issue has anything to do with the length of the recorded music. From what I understand it has everything to do with the moment the skating begins (I assume this means blade movement on the ice) and the moment the performance ends (blade movement stops). If I've got this right, the length of the recorded music has nothing to do with it whatsoever.
PLEASE someone tell me what I'm NOT getting right about this so I can sleep well tonight, SPOIL myself early tomorrow on Eurosport Audio with the aid of strong coffee, and then drink myself silly with Dick and Peggy starting at 3:30PM CST tomorrow afternoon.
(means it LOL)
DG
You have been SO incredibly nice to me since I joined Goldenskate several months ago. You are also our Logical, Rational Mathman around here, and there is clearly something I'm not getting LOL. I have to believe a bunch of people are BARFING in their own throwns right now because I can't seem to stop myself from expressing my thoughts and understandings about this issue at least 5 billion time. (the excuse I will use is that repeating my opinion on this topic beats the cr@p out of cleaning my kitchen!!)
I don't think this issue has anything to do with the length of the recorded music. From what I understand it has everything to do with the moment the skating begins (I assume this means blade movement on the ice) and the moment the performance ends (blade movement stops). If I've got this right, the length of the recorded music has nothing to do with it whatsoever.
PLEASE someone tell me what I'm NOT getting right about this so I can sleep well tonight, SPOIL myself early tomorrow on Eurosport Audio with the aid of strong coffee, and then drink myself silly with Dick and Peggy starting at 3:30PM CST tomorrow afternoon.
(means it LOL)DG
show 42 said:
I wouldn't say that it was his vote that gave the gold to Oksana. That's only what CBS wanted people to believe. I believe the line went: 'With four western judges going for Nancy, and four eastern judges going for Oksana, that left the decision up to Jan Hoffman of Germany'.
It all came down to media representation. It didn't come down to Hoffman alone, it came down to Hoffman and four other judges. Jan seems to be a great judge who holds true to his artistic beliefs, especially when looking at how BronzeisGolden pointed out that he marked Michelle ahead of Tara in Nagano.
Thanks for your input, Mike. I drug out my Oly 94 tape again, and watched the part where a diagram was displayed showing how the swing vote for artistry went to Oksana. It clearly showed that Jan Hoffman was the judge who went with Oksana over Nancy. Now I don't know how close to the actual truth this presentation was, and perhaps the media was coloring up the truth a bit, but his name was mentioned. Not to diss Jan, ( I did enjoy his skating very much, and although I love Robin, personally thought the Oly Gold should have gone to him.) 42
Doggygirl, you ain't missin' a thang. You've got it right.
If any part of the body moves through space, the program has started.
The program continues going as long as any part of the body is moving through space.
The program ends when the skater comes to a complete stop.
The music is, just as you said, used as a marker for the skater.
For the SP, the time is 2:30 with 10 seconds of leeway. So the longest you can move in the SP without a deduction is 2:40. The referee apparentely timed Michelle at 2:42, which is 2 seconds over the point at which deductions are taken.
Get your rest, Doggygirl. You've got it right. You've got some day tomorrow. Can you train the doggies to sit and watch Worlds?
Rgirl
If any part of the body moves through space, the program has started.
The program continues going as long as any part of the body is moving through space.
The program ends when the skater comes to a complete stop.
The music is, just as you said, used as a marker for the skater.
For the SP, the time is 2:30 with 10 seconds of leeway. So the longest you can move in the SP without a deduction is 2:40. The referee apparentely timed Michelle at 2:42, which is 2 seconds over the point at which deductions are taken.
Get your rest, Doggygirl. You've got it right. You've got some day tomorrow. Can you train the doggies to sit and watch Worlds?
Rgirl
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