This and That: 2015 Skate Canada Recap

[andromache]

I'm not bothered by that and I'll try to explain why, because I get what you mean. I think that everyone who watches "This and That" disagrees with the opinions presented there often. I do. But this doesn't mean that I don't enjoy it. But if someone doesn't like the concept of the show it's likely that the criticism won't be constructive. It's nice to have Dave here and this thread imho, in the end we all want FS to be more popular than it is right now. So cross promotion/business deals etc. are necessary means to an end.

This is basically what I was going to say but you said it much better than I would have. I'm sure constructive disagreement is allowed here (correct me if I'm wrong), such as "I disagree with TSL about this skater because...." or whatever, but yeah, if someone just wants to criticize the concept of This and That or make unfounded negative judgements of Jenny or Dave as individuals, it'll end up derailing the thread.

Having central threads to discuss TSL seems very helpful, regardless of any cross-promotion. Many of us here on the forum watch it, and sometimes there will be small conversations in fan fest and other threads that discuss something Jenny and/or Dave said on an episode. Such discussions and disagreements on opinion can now be discussed here.

 

[thedybbuk]

Umm. Did you happen to notice the big old announcement that TSL and GS are cross-promoting? There was nothing underhanded about it. Did you also happen to notice that many people are delighted to be able to engage directly with Dave? And are you aware that Gsk8 is the forum owner? So maybe it's okay that she reminds posters to stay on topic?

No, I didn't miss it. But that's not my point. Neither is whether or not most people enjoy the threads. It's about the moral issue of suppressing (or possibly suppressing) dissent.

We're apparently now getting sponsored posts about every TSL video, with a rule that you're only supposed to post if you "enjoy" the video. You can not enjoy the video and be on topic. Maybe you CAN openly disagree with TSL and post in the threads, but "enjoy" is broad enough a word to prick my ears up. I think anyone who is honest can appreciate someone worrying that it sounds a lot like "The threads are for people who agree." Again, maybe I'm wrong, but the choice of words bothered me.

 

[gsk8]

...if someone just wants to criticize the concept of This and That or make unfounded negative judgements of Jenny or Dave as individuals, it'll end up derailing the thread.

Correct. While feedback was invited, it was not an invitation to hijack the thread (which is about the SC Recap), hence my comment about "While "this and "that" may not be everyone's cup of tea, this thread is for those who enjoy it and would like to participate in the discussion regarding respective videos."

So thanks for pointing that out :thumbsup:

No, I didn't miss it. But that's not my point. Neither is whether or not most people enjoy the threads. It's about the moral issue of suppressing (or possibly suppressing) dissent.

We're apparently now getting sponsored posts about every TSL video, with a rule that you're only supposed to post if you "enjoy" the video. You can not enjoy the video and be on topic. Maybe you CAN openly disagree with TSL and post in the threads, but "enjoy" is broad enough a word to prick my ears up. I think anyone who is honest can appreciate someone worrying that it sounds a lot like "The threads are for people who agree." Again, maybe I'm wrong, but the choice of words bothered me.

There have always been links to TSL on the forum (and many other skating sites), so I'm not sure what the problem is here. There is no "rule" (as you said) that you can only post if you enjoy a video?

GS has always cross-promoted with various outlets throughout the years to get info out to the fans, so therefore, your comment about "behind the scenes cross promotion/business deal" really baffles me.

I'm not even sure why you felt posting this with a negative connotation in this thread was necessary and hope we can move on to the topic at hand.

 

[Tavi...]

No, I didn't miss it. But that's not my point. Neither is whether or not most people enjoy the threads. It's about the moral issue of suppressing (or possibly suppressing) dissent.

We're apparently now getting sponsored posts about every TSL video, with a rule that you're only supposed to post if you "enjoy" the video. You can not enjoy the video and be on topic. Maybe you CAN openly disagree with TSL and post in the threads, but "enjoy" is broad enough a word to prick my ears up. I think anyone who is honest can appreciate someone worrying that it sounds a lot like "The threads are for people who agree." Again, maybe I'm wrong, but the choice of words bothered me.

I'm sorry. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't agree that the posts are "sponsored," that dissent is being stifled, or that you're only allowed to post in those threads if you "enjoyed" the video. I believe the intent is to keep the thread civil and on topic, eg that expressing a dissenting opinion about TSL content is fine but a personal attack on Dave is not.

What I find a little mystifying, though, is why you care much, given that you've only posted 37 times in 3 years.

 

[Mathman]

Golden Skate is not an open mic, nor is Gsk8 obliged to provide us with one. Instead, she pours her blood, sweat and tears (not to mention $) into making this site a complete figure skating resource, adding exclusive original content often.

Yes, we have the right peacefully to assemble, not to have a state religion imposed on us, and not to be subject to unlawful searches and seizures. Still, I hope no one will insist on their "right," for instance, to go on Chastity's thread and say you don't like her material. You can just think that silently, or post it on another Internet site.

 

[TSLDave]

I'm sorry. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't agree that the posts are "sponsored," that dissent is being stifled, or that you're only allowed to post in those threads if you "enjoyed" the video. I believe the intent is to keep the thread civil and on topic, eg that expressing a dissenting opinion about TSL content is fine but a personal attack on Dave is not.

What I find a little mystifying, though, is why you care much, given that you've only posted 37 times in 3 years.

You can say what you wish, it is okay Paula invited me here and I'll hang out as long as we are still having fun.

 

[cheerknithanson]

Golden Skate is not an open mic, nor is Gsk8 obliged to provide us with one. Instead, she pours her blood, sweat and tears (not to mention $) into making this site a complete figure skating resource, adding exclusive original content often.

Yes, we have the right peacefully to assemble, not to have a state religion imposed on us, and not to be subject to unlawful searches and seizures. Still, I hope no one will insist on their "right," for instance, to go on Chastity's thread and say you don't like her material. You can just think that silently, or post it on another Internet site.

Exactly. We need to act like the adults we are. This isn't twitter where people can simply do what they want.

 

[Tallorder]

What would it take for the judges to allow the Shibutanis to win U.S. Nationals?


Well phrased question! In my opinion and understanding, it is a question of what the judges - individually and collectively - would be willing to "permit."

For ice dance, at US Nationals, it would take the JUDGES feeling able to judge what they see delivered on the ice in front of them on that day, and not fear facing the consequences of doing what is "expected" of them. Yes, this is in general ALWAYS true. But with US ice dance, it is a particularly problematic issue for the dance judges.

The roster of the prominent US dance judges who sit for Nationals and the major events have almost all "made" their careers, gaining success+power+ego satisfaction thanks to the impact of Igor Shpilband. There is a reluctance to go against traditions of influence lest it risk something they may want.

The dance judges are a distinct breed and operate within a distinct culture, in comparison to the singles and pairs disciplines. The singles judges have had the benefit of advancing their careers working amidst more densely competitive fields of top skaters (e.g., Michelle vs Sasha vs Sarah, and now Gracie vs. Ashley) and have also had a much broader group of top, influential coaches around whom they can "navigate" their own careers around.

There is also scant culture within USFS of truly "supporting" (politicking for) more than one dance team internationally. This is the whole Country X's #1 team being "pushed" over Country #2's team or #3, etc. This is not the case with every country, but it is a shortcoming unfortunately long in tradition and supported from the top, particularly for USFS and Skate Canada. Current performance heads Mitch Moyer (USFS) and Mike Slipchuk (Skate Canada) both draw from the same playbook or have not had to truly deal with this issue, especially for dance. Why risk THEIR jobs?

Would love to be proven wrong on this by the way, but sadly it's so deeply embedded within the diseased underbelly of the sport, it would be hard to be confident of a meaningful change.

 

[gsk8]

Looking forward to the COC recap!

 

[Mrs. P]

FWIW: Shibutanis and Chock and Bates were practically tied after the SD at nationals last year. Chock and Bates were first but by only by 0.11.

The Shibutanis basically lost in the FD, which they had struggled with all season long. They basically had a reworked FD after struggling on it during multiple GP competitions.

I think the playing field is a little bit different. We'll see what happens.

 

[TontoK]

I'm reminded somewhat of the Duchenays in 1991.

I'm not saying they were better than K/P, but after a year or so as "The People's Champions" the judges had to reward them at WC or face an armed uprising.

I think the Shibs have been American fan favorites for a while, certainly since the retirement of D/W. They now have a long program that really connects.

We'll get to see how C/B have advanced their programs in China, and then we'll get to see the Shibs a bit later. I am very interested in watching the development of these teams over the next months. I think US Nats could be epic.

 

[slider11]

To address the Shibutani's being made National champions - it's possible! Last year's SD was won by C/B but by tenths over the Shibs; the FD was a much stronger lead. However this year, C/B seem to have a favored SD with a very strong score at SA. The Shibs were about 5 points behind them at SC in the SD. But the Shibs did not have the advantage of "home ice".
Wonder what the judges would have given C/B if they were at SC? Their FDs (C/B and Shibs) were similarly scored. So although the US judges may sway towards C/B, I think if the Shibs keep catching the attention of the judges and the fans, that could change. CoC and GPF will be very telling!

 

[OS]

By the way is anyone playing the TSL fantasy league game? I went from #531 from SA (Ohh Gracie you are killing me!!) to #90 at Skate Canada currently 168 points! Yeahh~ to me eace:

 

[SunDae]

Last season I was able to see Maia and Alex compete head-to-head with Chock and Bates twice. In both competitions, Chock and Bates were the USFS promoted favorites to win.

Funny thing though, at Skate America, for the free dance, Maia and Alex got a standing ovation. chock fell out of her footwork at the end of the program and the crowd was polite with applause, but their scores were higher. There was a murmur that went through the crowd as many did not understand how their flawed program could have scored so much higher.

The more glaring example was at US Nationals during the short dance. The two teams skated back-to-back making for a great chance to compare them. Chock and Bates skated first. They were clean, and the audience appreciated them, but the applause ended before they could bow. The lack of enthusiasm from the crowd prompted Charlie White to complain when he was doing commentary.

The Shibs were next. They skated lights out. The audience gave them a rousing standing ovation. Their twizzles were full attack and the ending was exciting. If you don't believe me, watch the replay. Their scores were almost a tie. But when the announcer then said that they were "currently in second place" people all around the arena started to boo.

When you looked at the protocols, almost every judge had put the Maia and Alex behind Chock and Bates on each component and mark of the PCS by the exact same amount. It was like they had "received the memo" and were really just ranking. Certainly on performance this was completely tone deaf and suspicious in my opinion.

The fans are not stupid. When they see this over and over again, the fans will vote (even more) with their feet.

 

[karne]

I have joined it only to prove how terrible I am at all such fantasy games. I'm down in the 390s.

 

[andromache]

I went slightly down in the ranking in the GS prediction game but slightly up in the TSL fantasy game. So that was encouraging. Out of the #200s and into the #100s! :hap57:

I like how both games are scored differently so it's possible to do better in one than in another. Let's see how CoC goes!

 

[MK's Winter]

I went slightly down in the ranking in the GS prediction game but slightly up in the TSL fantasy game. So that was encouraging. Out of the #200s and into the #100s! :hap57: I like how both games are scored differently so it's possible to do better in one than in another. Let's see how CoC goes!

I dropped 100 spaces in TSL's

 

[gsk8]

I was just reviewing Weaver and Poje's FD again as it (or some of their movements) reminded me of another program. It finally hit me that it was Rahkamo and Kokko's routine to a piece by Hildegard von Bingen. Does anyone remember that? Very ethereal...

[h=1][/h]

 

[Mathman]

By the way is anyone playing the TSL fantasy league game? I went from #531 from SA (Ohh Gracie you are killing me!!) to #90 at Skate Canada currently 168 points! Yeahh~ to me eace:

The 168 that used to adorn your user name migrated to the fantasy game.

 

[yuzushenko]

Last season I was able to see Maia and Alex compete head-to-head with Chock and Bates twice. In both competitions, Chock and Bates were the USFS promoted favorites to win.

Funny thing though, at Skate America, for the free dance, Maia and Alex got a standing ovation. chock fell out of her footwork at the end of the program and the crowd was polite with applause, but their scores were higher. There was a murmur that went through the crowd as many did not understand how their flawed program could have scored so much higher.

The more glaring example was at US Nationals during the short dance. The two teams skated back-to-back making for a great chance to compare them. Chock and Bates skated first. They were clean, and the audience appreciated them, but the applause ended before they could bow. The lack of enthusiasm from the crowd prompted Charlie White to complain when he was doing commentary.

The Shibs were next. They skated lights out. The audience gave them a rousing standing ovation. Their twizzles were full attack and the ending was exciting. If you don't believe me, watch the replay. Their scores were almost a tie. But when the announcer then said that they were "currently in second place" people all around the arena started to boo.

When you looked at the protocols, almost every judge had put the Maia and Alex behind Chock and Bates on each component and mark of the PCS by the exact same amount. It was like they had "received the memo" and were really just ranking. Certainly on performance this was completely tone deaf and suspicious in my opinion.

The fans are not stupid. When they see this over and over again, the fans will vote (even more) with their feet.

Yeah I think the Shibs have a lot of fan support. I guess their sex appeal is what has people talking about how skilled they are. But that simply reveals the Shibs' weakness, so hopefully they can learn to improve in that performance area.

Alex Shibutani to me seems like he's really upset with results a lot of the times while Maia seems to just be calm about it. I wonder what their thoughts on it are. During the gala practices, there were pics of Alex Shibutani and he looked like he didn't want to be there at all haha. I just don't get the feeling that he loves figure skating. ShibSibs on social media seem to be really into modeling, youtube, photography, and product advertisement to fashion related things. I just wonder what their feelings towards the sport is.

I recall some skaters when asked about what their favorite thing about skating is and they just never have an answer... I just can't understand how an international senior competitor can not have an answer to that...I remember Gracie answered that way last year during an ice network video Q&A of her and the Shibutanis. Shibs answer was "we love it because we get to travel and meet all of these people from around the world." but if you didn't get those travel perks, what would you love about it? Do you love it, or do you just love the fact that you get to travel to exotic places and take nice selfies there?