TT choreographed both MK's LP and a new SP

[MKbeauty]

re. PCS

I wanted to chime in a comment with regard to the Irina/PCS discussion. When talking about Euros, people always argue that "she skated a great SP." Looking at the protocols from Euros, her PCS score was 30.31. At Worlds, with a flawed performance, she received 30.34 PCS. The marks just don't make sense. Whether the judges are trying to hold up their favorites or they're afraid of marking out of the "corridor" and getting an ISU warning, I'm not sure. Whatever the case, it certainly raises some suspicion, especially since the new system is a numbers game. Tenths of a point can determine the outcome of a competition. JMHO.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

To me "Irina's scores were inflated" is not an explanation. Who exactly wuz robbed and how?

I guess I'll try to answer. Who was robbed: skaters in future competitions. How: inflated scoring like this sets a bad precedent for judges to give reputation points for skaters regardless of how they skate. If it seems okay in one competition, what's to stop them from doing the same thing in other competitions?

 

[SusanBeth]

Well said, Fozzie Bear!

Might I add that figure skating fans in general are also paying the price for unethical judging? Corruption is at least one of the reasons behind the decline of the sport. We have fewer opportunies to see skating due to the lack of ratings. Fewer kids are entering the sport and we will be seeing the effects for years to come.

Everyone has been clamoring for the judging to be fair. Irina's marks were an indication that the judges aren't listening. That is the scandal.

 

[R.D.]

Might I add that figure skating fans in general are also paying the price for unethical judging? Corruption is at least one of the reasons behind the decline of the sport. We have fewer opportunies to see skating due to the lack of ratings. Fewer kids are entering the sport and we will be seeing the effects for years to come.

Everyone has been clamoring for the judging to be fair. Irina's marks were an indication that the judges aren't listening. That is the scandal.

I concur. Doesn't matter if she deserved the win or not- in this case, it was, did she deserve the marks that she got?

 

[Doggygirl]

I do agree that the PCS area of scoring is the biggest opportunity for improved judging in the new system. I suppose Irina's PCS scores at Euros were a bit like situations, especially in the last season of 6.0 where I think lots of undeserved 6's were given out. I guess I view the Euros situation a bit as "no harm, no foul" since I think the end result was OK. But ITA that I'd RATHER see PCS scores given in a way that seems better justified.

DG

 

[cianni]

Joesitz

Thanks for saying what I have been trying to say not just now but for yrs. Irina has been overmarked all her career in both judging systems . I see the posters today are saying the same i have been saying. The judges are corrupt and cheat to ensure the winner of their choice usually Irina unless its not possible. I know 4 people personally who stopped watching skating starting with Irina winning the GP I forget the yr. 2000 maybe when the cheating was blatant. Its not only Irina but she is the most gifted of all the skaters. ITA we the fans will pay the price when there is less and less coverage here in the USA. I shudder to think of the OLYS and the scoring with the winner already in mind and I dont expect things to be any different. Responses have been great today so if the poster doesnt get the point so be it. I guess the judges have that same mindset whats the problem if we cheat and give her inflated points she should have won anyway. Red Dog its all about did she deserve the points your right. Thats it end of story

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I do agree that the PCS area of scoring is the biggest opportunity for improved judging in the new system. I suppose Irina's PCS scores at Euros were a bit like situations, especially in the last season of 6.0 where I think lots of undeserved 6's were given out. I guess I view the Euros situation a bit as "no harm, no foul" since I think the end result was OK. But ITA that I'd RATHER see PCS scores given in a way that seems better justified.

DG

It's not just the PCS scores. There are the GoE scores in the Technical that can easily be tampered with. The pluses and minuses are for whomever a judge likes or dislikes. who is going to check up on the judge? And there is the Caller who can say the jump was underrotated (the worst penalty in scoring - worse than a fall). He can also ignore a flutz and let the judge decide what to do.

When the scores are read at the end of the competition and compared. Any judge will be called on the carpet if he varies more than the average. Now the competition is over and no scores will be changed even if they find the incompetent judge wrong in his scoring. The review will take place in May - two months after the competition. Who will worry about this now?

Joe

 

[brad640]

The problem with Irina’s scores is that there is no way to say *who* wuzrobbed because the inflation changed the psychology of the competition. By egregiously overmarking Irina’s SP, the judges gave her the message that the title was hers no matter what she did. Thus there was no pressure on her in the LP and she could take risks without worrying what would happen. It was easier for her to go for the 3z3l knowing that it wouldn’t matter if she fell out of it because her errors were not reflected in the scores. The rest of the field felt like they were skating for silver, which depressed the level of competition. Had Irina been marked fairly in the first 2 phases of competition, there are a number of people who might have given a brilliant LP performance if they thought they were skating for gold.

 

[Doggygirl]

Responses have been great today so if the poster doesnt get the point so be it.

My apologies for asking the burning questions I had. I was trying to GET the point. There have been many very legitimate questions about various aspects of PCS scoring (and many of them coming from me!) throughout last season. When statements are made such as (paraphrasing here) "hope we don't have another Euros 2005" it sounds to me like that particular competition was THE outrage of the season, and that Irina's scores are the only questionable ones out there. I'm not suggesting that's how the comment was intended - just explaining how I reacted to it.

So if the real point is to talk about judging in general (which I think is what you are saying) then here is my wish list:

1) Get rid of secret judging (reveal identities / nationalities)
2) Separate the panel between TES and PCS judges. (I think it's a lot to ask of one individual to score individual elements (GOE for TES) AND take in the program as a whole (PCS) with everything happening so fast. But I'm not a judge - so maybe it's more "possible" to do all of that than I percieve it to be.
3) Treat each category within PCS individually. This goes to the ??? about all categories of PCS being scored very close together for each skater - and that happened across most comps and skaters the whole season. I DO think it's possible that a skater could have outstanding skating skills (as an example) but lousy choreography. I don't think we saw many (if any) examples of that type of scoring all season. (at least none come to mind for me - but I'm always willing to be proven wrong) That makes the PCS scoring in general suspect for me.

So in conclusion, my POV is that PCS scoring was suspect all season - not just at Euros, which is really why I asked for more clarification since Euros was the only competition mentioned. Hope that explains why I was being so difficult.

DG

 

[emma]

This was my impression too Doggygirl...the PCS scores are too flat/too even for the skaters to be taken seriously in all the compeitions, not just Euros. Additionally, the range across skaters SEEMS to simply follow international standing (at least as I hear it from the posters), like the 6 system...so we need someone to help us verify this trend (and it should be critiqued if there). There is no doubt in my mind that IRina's basic skating skills are superior to many even on a bad day, but to have her choreo ALSO receive high marks is startling...so I agree with DG that the PCS are suspect and will be until we start seeing real variation in scores across the components for one skater; but I agree with DG that it seems unrealistic to expect judges to do all that technical scoring and have all the differentiated detail for the 5 (is it?) categories of PCS's, we need two panels.
Even with two panels could judges use the PCS to hold up their favorites...sure thing.

My feeling about Euro's is that the skating was bad enough and the PCS high enough to make the overall- all along trend in bad PCS scoring obvious, hence the outburst of criticism. Why i don't like that: it makes it seem like one event was bad or one skater gets special treatment when it is the overall scoring of PCS across the boards, all skaters, all events that need fixing.

 

[cianni]

Doggy Girl

I see your point however I was only talking about Irina getting the inflated points not only in Euros but the SP at Worlds and its not who should have won but she doesnt deserve the marks even though she may have deserved the overall win. Same with the 6.0 system Irina has little to none in the pres. area but got 5/9s and not deserved so the NJS allows the same kind of assurance that the skaters will win by hook or crook. I think your points are well taken but they arent the points I am pointing out. The perception and rightly so is the judges cheat and its a corrupt sport. People cant help but see a skater do a poor program and get high marks as beyond suspect. I guess we will all get on the same page at some point.

 

[Doggygirl]

Ok...

I think we've got two topics going on here...

1) Does Irina get "help up" with questionable judging regardless of the system used?
2) Is judging "suspect" in general, especially the NJS?

Everyone is entitled to their opinions on both those topics, and any other topics mixed in that I've missed....right?

Two more observations:

1) I, Doggygirl, am just like Pavlov's Dog. "Euros 2005" mentions cause a reaction in me = "here we go again on Irina was held up!"

2) It IS possible to take an MK thread onto a different topic, just like it's possible to take a thread on any other topic onto MK. (and I hope it's completely obvious - that's an attempt at humor - probably a poor attempt...but just the same....

It's clear we all love skating, so I hope we always stay on that same page regardless of the finer points we debate for fun!

DG

 

[chuckm]

I did a little study on the PCS scores for the Worlds 05 SP.

The actual SP rank is shown for each skater, then the rank order of the total PCS score:

1 IRINA (1st) in PCS
2 SASHA (2nd)
3 MICHELLE (3rd)
4 CAROLINA (7th)
5 SHIZUKA (6th)
6 ELENA S (5th)
7 MIKI (8th)
8 SUSANNA (9th)
9 JOANNIE (10th)
10 FUMIE (4th)

What was most interesting was looking at how each of the skaters' total PCS scores for each of 12 judges ranked. It should give you an interesting view of how the outcome of an event could change based on which judges' scores are selected for the final count.

[SIZE=-1]
01 01 01 03 01 01 03 04 02 01 02 01 Irina
02 09 02 01 02 04 01 03 01 03 01 04 Sasha
06 03 04 02 06 03 02 08 02 05 03 03 Michelle
04 06 05 05 07 07 06 01 07 07 07 02 Carolina
07 05 08 05 04 06 10 06 05 04 04 07 Shizuka
08 04 06 05 03 02 03 01 06 06 06 05 Elena
09 10 09 08 10 08 07 08 08 08 08 09 Miki
04 07 06 09 09 08 09 10 09 08 10 07 Susanna
10 07 10 09 07 10 08 07 10 10 08 10 Joannie
03 02 03 03 04 05 05 05 04 02 04 06 Fumie
[/SIZE]

 

[tdnuva]

Afaik the marks the judges give are not for every mark in the same order, are they? IIRC it's not possible anymore to follow one judge thru the competition in any way.

 

[Mathman]

Hey, it's jump on Doggygirl week, and nobody told me!! I want to get my licks in, too, LOL.

I think the main reason that so many people reject the point of view, "Well, Irina deserved to win anyway, so what difference does it make?" is this. That is exactly the issue that the New Judging System was intended to address.

Under ordinal judging, if you gave someone a 5.8, all that meant was that you thought that skater was better than the competitor that you gave a 5.7 to. At the end of the day, the only thing that mattered was, I thought this skater performed the best, so I manipulated the numbers to make it come out that way.

In contrast, the NJS is supposed to have some sort of objective criteria for assigning scores. When instead they just seem to be thrown out willy-nilly, it makes people wonder why we bothered to change.

Having said that, I am not outraged when I see the best skaters getting the best Performance Component Scores. Irina excells in several areas that deserve to be rewarded. She is way ahead of everyone else on the power and efficiency of her stroking, she has strong and secure edges and amazing co-ordination and control of her body. I like her choreography and musical interpretation just fine, bearing in mind that you have to work in seven jumping passes, four spins and assorted moves in the field.

When I see a list like ChuckM's, it does not necessarily make me think of cheating or "protocol judging" but rather that Irina consistently skated the best throughout the competition, Sasha skated the second best and Michelle skated the third best (losing out to Carolina because of a disastrously sub-par qualifying round).

JMO

Mathman

 

[Mathman]

Afaik the marks the judges give are not for every mark in the same order, are they? IIRC it's not possible anymore to follow one judge thru the competition in any way.

I might be wrong, but I believe that the judges are listed in the same order in each line. From this, it is almost always possible (although it takes some effort) to figure out which judges' marks were eliminated in the random draw, and from there, which high and low marks were thrown out. That is, there is usually only one combination of judges' scores that duplicate the totals exactly.

The only thing we don't know is which judge is which. That is, we don't know that judge #1 is Orest Kuwalchuk from Ukraine, etc. (Although sometimes it is possible to make some guesses.)

MM

 

[tdnuva]

I might be wrong, but I believe that the judges are listed in the same order in each line. From this, it is almost always possible (although it takes some effort) to figure out which judges' marks were eliminated in the random draw, and from there, which high and low marks were thrown out.

Which is exactly why I think it was not like that. But my memory refers to discussions from about two years ago, so I might be wrong as well.

 

[Mathman]

What was most interesting was looking at how each of the skaters' total PCS scores for each of 12 judges ranked. It should give you an interesting view of how the outcome of an event could change based on which judges' scores are selected for the final count.

[SIZE=-1]
01 01 01 03 01 01 03 04 02 01 02 01 Irina
02 09 02 01 02 04 01 03 01 03 01 04 Sasha
06 03 04 02 06 03 02 08 02 05 03 03 Michelle
04 06 05 05 07 07 06 01 07 07 07 02 Carolina
07 05 08 05 04 06 10 06 05 04 04 07 Shizuka
08 04 06 05 03 02 03 01 06 06 06 05 Elena
09 10 09 08 10 08 07 08 08 08 08 09 Miki
04 07 06 09 09 08 09 10 09 08 10 07 Susanna
10 07 10 09 07 10 08 07 10 10 08 10 Joannie
03 02 03 03 04 05 05 05 04 02 04 06 Fumie
[/SIZE]

Very interesting. There are 220 possible ways that the random draw can turn out. Just a quick comparison of a couple of skaters (and ignoring trimming, etc.), for Irina versus Sasha, Irina wins the "majority of ordinals" 185 times (84%) and Sasha wins 35 times (16%).

For Michelle versus Carolina, Michelle wins for every possible outcome of the randon draw.

Of course no matter how or when the judges are selected, the outcome of any judged contest will always rest on the choice of judges to some extent.

Mathman

 

[Doggygirl]

Hey, it's jump on Doggygirl week, and nobody told me!! I want to get my licks in, too, LOL.

Mathman

Thank GOODNESS that only happens once a year. Oops - I'm so new to this whole discussion thang.....maybe it happens MORE than once a year! (hope not)

However, if you want to get your "licks in" you're gonna have to talk to my protectors (well, lickers )

http://www.godtw.com/Mittelwest/Kimba/DogsToWork.html

On a more serious note, there is a long history in FS of ?? judging that I think we would all agree to, and are concerned about. It goes WAY farther back than one competition from last year. Only time will tell......the future.

Thanks MM for your Highly Diplomatic Intervention.

DG

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I did a little study on the PCS scores for the Worlds 05 SP.

The actual SP rank is shown for each skater, then the rank order of the total PCS score:

1 IRINA (1st) in PCS
2 SASHA (2nd)
3 MICHELLE (3rd)
4 CAROLINA (7th)
5 SHIZUKA (6th)
6 ELENA S (5th)
7 MIKI (8th)
8 SUSANNA (9th)
9 JOANNIE (10th)
10 FUMIE (4th)

What was most interesting was looking at how each of the skaters' total PCS scores for each of 12 judges ranked. It should give you an interesting view of how the outcome of an event could change based on which judges' scores are selected for the final count.

[SIZE=-1]
01 01 01 03 01 01 03 04 02 01 02 01 Irina
02 09 02 01 02 04 01 03 01 03 01 04 Sasha
06 03 04 02 06 03 02 08 02 05 03 03 Michelle
04 06 05 05 07 07 06 01 07 07 07 02 Carolina
07 05 08 05 04 06 10 06 05 04 04 07 Shizuka
08 04 06 05 03 02 03 01 06 06 06 05 Elena
09 10 09 08 10 08 07 08 08 08 08 09 Miki
04 07 06 09 09 08 09 10 09 08 10 07 Susanna
10 07 10 09 07 10 08 07 10 10 08 10 Joannie
03 02 03 03 04 05 05 05 04 02 04 06 Fumie
[/SIZE]

Now, if we had the nationalities of those judges, we could see if there is regional favoritism. Am I correct?

Joe