US and Eurosport commentators disagree on Mao and Yu-Na

[carolinefan177]

I thought it was interesting that the British commentators on Eurosport and our own Dick Button disagree on Mao and Yu-Na's skating.

Dick tought that Mao was brilliant in her short program, even with the popped loop in her combination. He also comments on how the aspects of Mao's skating are superior to Yu-Na's. In Yu-Na's free program, Dick says that her inability to land her lutz is "avoiding the issue" (if she was able to land a solid triple flip-triple toe, the lutz should have been landed; it shouldn't have been a back problem). Eurosport raved on and on an on about Yu-Na's short program, saying it is the best that they have ever seen, and praise her for the efforts in her long program. When Mao skates her free program, Eurosport praises it, but mostly for her jumping ability, saying that she does not have the maturity of Yu-Na or even Miki. Eurosprt does not address the fact that Mao has set a new world record for her lp; however, they don't let anyone forget about Yu-Na's short program. At the end of Miki's freeskate, they remark about how Yu-Na will "certainly have her day."

Just thought that was interesting...

Personally, I perfer Dick Button. Eursport seems to be only concerned with a skater's jumping ability. I have never seen a video where they have mentioned the quality of a skater's spirals or spins.

Mao's 2007 World's sp ESPN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvgfOtwTTvE

Yu-Na 2007 World's sp Europort Britian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oRk1HHmrqo

Yu-Na 2007 World lp ESPN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otp3X_AGd2k

Mao World lp Eursport Britian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRuXCMNoVxw

Miki World lp Eurosport Britian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJCr2-sbivM

<3<3
Carolinefan 177

 

[Mathman]

That's interesting. They both had absolutely incredible performances in both the short and long programs at worlds. The contest was decided solely on mistakes -- Mao flubbed her combo in the SP and Yu-na missed jumps in the second half of her LP.

(As for the SP, watching on TV I didn't think anyone was going to beat Carolina Kostner).

 

[feraina]

Personally, I perfer Dick Button. Eursport seems to be only concerned with a skater's jumping ability. I have never seen a video where they have mentioned the quality of a skater's spirals or spins.

Dick does have his personal preferences regarding the perfect spiral position (no hands), the perfect spins (turned-out hips on laybacks & camels), doesn't he? And he sure doesn't hesitate to voice his opinions. But I don't think British Eurosport is completely oblivious to aspects of skating outside jumping. After all, their greatest claim to fame in skating is Torville and Dean, to whom they compare all performance in regard to presentation. I think it's more that they're much more sparing in their comments during a performance than anything else that they say so little regarding spins & spirals.

Out of curiosity, I went back and looked at how they commented on Sasha Cohen's Olympics SP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1kUtBPgxMg

To each of her jumping passes, they said, "Clean as a whistle" (3lutz-3toe), "as was that" (3flip), and "deep landing edge" (2axel). And to her spiral sequence they said "trademark flexibility." And then after her performance they gushed about it. So I think it's mainly a matter of commentating style. Frankly, I prefer it. Dick Button is welcome to say all he likes (which is often informative and amusing) when they show the replays, but it really destroys the performance to me when they talk straight through it...

 

[doubleaxel]

I'll agree with anything the EuroSport guys say any day over Dick Button. Some of his remarks are just so personal it's not even funny. The old guy's probably just biased against anyone who doesn't train in his own country (slight sarcasm intended here).

Actually. YES, Eurosport had mentioned the quality of spins and overall artistry rather often. In Yu-Na's LP they comment a lot on her spins and most importantly, musicality and expression. They didn't mentioned Mao's expression/artistry because, like me, they think she is focusing on her jumps too much (and, well, her face reminds me of a porcelain doll; expressionless and unmoving). Just because Mao has a balletic and airy style on ice, not everyone thinks of it as "artistry" and interpretation of music. EuroSport values expression, creativity, and spark in a skater's program - which Yu-Na's SP was filled with. Have you noticed, they are not biased against anyone? They always have something good to say.

I just hate when Dick complains that a skater lacks stretch just because it isn't a text-book position. Male american commentators in general make me SICK, they are often so biased against skaters from other countries... take Kurt Browning, for example. *ech*

 

[feraina]

(As for the SP, watching on TV I didn't think anyone was going to beat Carolina Kostner).

I also loved Carolina Kostner's Worlds SP. She has great jumps, flow and quickness across the ice, and her posture improved since Euro (maybe she lost weight too?). But I think at this particular SP, she didn't really have her usual quickness and flow. Her circular footwork wasn't particularly good (not bad, just not her best), and her spins lacked speed and centering. I think it was mainly on these accounts that she didn't win the SP.

I think it attests to a SP competition of very high standards that a program as good as hers only got 3rd place.

 

[carolinefan177]

Hmm...

Thanks for the replies guys! I think Mao's performance did have musicality and spark, and I truly believe that she has greater quality skating. Elegance, line, musicality, are all part of the pcs marks. Just because a skater can't produce a facial expression that correlates with the music doesn't mean that he or she is any less artistic. I love Yu-Na's skating but I thought her score was a little inflated. She did not recieve any negative GOES for her spiral sequence when it was clear she had a little bobble and no stretch, and yes a spiral should have a good back and leg position. It is unfortuante that Eurosport thought that Mao was too focused on jumps because her skating was superior in so many aspects.

<3

 

[einna]

Personally, I like the British version better because they don't overemphasize the mistakes (flutz, two foot, fall, bad stretch, wobbly spiral, uncentered spins, etc). What they do is they praise the good qualities of the skater. I heard them say that Yu-na will no doubt be a future world champion but they said the same thing about Mao because both of them really have the qualities of a world champion or olympic champion. Honestly, there is no disagreement. What I can see is Dick Button's obvious preference for Mao and you know when he likes a skater, he is very vocal about it.

 

[mizu_iro]

I think both sides have their points...Mao's basic posture is textbook, and she hits much better positions than Yu-Na, especially in the spiral and the Biellmann. However, as Eurosport said after Yu-Na's SP, skaters who express the music as well as she does are rare. And as far as the jumps go, Mao has the 3A and the 3L combo but I prefer the quality that Yu-Na has (and she does get better GOE's for them). Yu-Na's spins are also faster and more centered, and while Mao has the super-bendy positions she lacks something really elementary that Yu-Na has...a halfway-decent sit-spin.

I suppose they're both justified in what they're saying, but personally I agree more with British Eurosport. The reason they commented mostly on Mao's jumps is because without the jumps, there's not much excitement to her skating. Her carriage may be excellent, but that in of itself doesn't generate emotion. In Yu-Na's case, you can see the emotions on her face and in her gestures whether she's landing the jumps or not.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Dick and the Brit most likely have different opinions on what the skating was about. Dick, imo, who favors the lyrical style would choose Mao even if she fell on her face. The Brit who could favor a more dramatic style chose YuNa. I only watched the SPs, so I can't say who should have won the whole contest.

Mao did a very nice lyrical number to an obviously lyrical tune, and she did it well.
YuNa did a nice dramatic number to an obviously dramatic tune, and she was ok. She could have been more bravura in that number and glared at the audience in defiance. She didn't.

Since I didn't yet watch the LPs I would not venture to say who the winner should be, imo. However, they are extremely talented young ladies and both are very musical. Only the 3A separates them as far as the CoP is concerned.

What I like about YuNa is her blending of the tricks into steps in the choreography. Never a hard landing on the jumps. There is never a big sell of her performance (although that SP could have had a little more sell).

Joe

 

[Kikigirl]

I prefer British Eurosport. They always have something nice to say, don't overemphasize mistakes (as einna said), and don't talk a lot throughout the performance. Dick Button has favorites and not-so favorites, and he never shuts up during the performances!! Well, none of the American commentators shut up during the performances.

As for the Mao vs Yu-Na, I personally prefer Yu-Na because to me, she has the complete package. Mao never expresses herself during her programs, and it's all about jumps.

 

[gio]

I like when commentators don't bash skaters. So I'll go with Brit Eurosport. I don't like Dick negative comments about skaters he doesn't like. Brit commentators have always a good word for everyone. I prefer them over the Italian ones too.

Choosing between Mao and Yu Na is very difficult. I'll say a tie.

 

[doubleaxel]

She did not recieve any negative GOES for her spiral sequence when it was clear she had a little bobble and no stretch, and yes a spiral should have a good back and leg position.

<3

Keep in mind, she was still bothered by the recent back injury, which you can especially decipher by taking a look at her Biellmann spin (usually she holds it for longer and the free leg is straighter and more elegant-looking). Just a thought . . .

When it comes to Mao vs Yu-Na, my choice is rather obvious.

(Yu-Na Kim forever.)

 

[gio]

I love Yu-Na's skating but I thought her score was a little inflated.
<3

And Mao marks were inflated too (+3GOE for the df 3A). They both had inflated scores. But still this doesn't change a thing.

 

[netnuts]

Dick Button

Dick Button, the most stupid commentator in FS history. He kept on ranting how poorly Lambiel skated his long program, and how he could not understand why Lambiel pumped his fist for such a 'poor' performance. Even Kurt Browning had to politely remind him it's 'not such a bad performance'. When the scores came up, it just made poor Dick look even more silly.

Dick Button is living in a la la land, a bubble. He's been mumbling on the most trivial things such as 'stretch, the free leg of a layback spin' etc for ages.

It's an embarrassment for ESPN to have him as a commentator.


You can watch this clip here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i14uW5JCNBQ


BTW, Dick's comment that Lambiel suddently became an 'artist' this year was also quite bizarre. It makes you wonder whether he's having some memory problem. (Lambiel suddently became from a good technician to a good performer?? suddently converted from a teenager into a romantic performer this year??? Dick, give me a break...)

Hopefully this is Dick Button's last year.

 

[morninglight]

I don't think that British commentators were negative about Mao' artistry. They commented on how beautifully the program was constructed. They also expected that the second marks would be very high.

Mao's SP British
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3QTV66GpOU

As someone said, the differences in commentators' tones would be partly a matter of preferences for styles.

I personally value musicality and elegance the best. To me, facial expressions and theatrical aspects are not most important in artistry. I certainly do appreciate theatrical performances; but I cannot watch them too many times. I like performances that have beautiful flow, elegance, and subtle sophistication. In that sense, I liked Carolina's and Mao's SPs the best in this past season; they were very calm, smooth, elegant, and had sophisticated simplicity.

Although some people comment that Mao's face looks like a 'porcelain doll', I think it because she is really focused in competitions. She tends to have more natural facial expressions when she performs in galas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7qDPBPlxHw) or when things are going well (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkp-5n1fb2k).

But I cannot blame 16-year-old Mao for being really focused when she was having hard times with her elements (and that's what matters the most in current system, right?). Indeed, she rated her past season as only 50 or 60 points on a 100-point scale.

Yet, she seems to have determined to improve her artistry. Several years ago, Jeff hadn't been as artistic as he is now. Two years ago, Shizuka wasn't as artistic as she is now. Mao is still very young and I would look forward to more artistic performances of Mao during the next several seasons

 

[satorare]

I don't want Mao to do any "face" things in competitions. That's too Kwan-like and I just hate that.

 

[Tinymavy15]

I prefer British Eurosport. They always have something nice to say, don't overemphasize mistakes (as einna said), and don't talk a lot throughout the performance. Dick Button has favorites and not-so favorites, and he never shuts up during the performances!! Well, none of the American commentators shut up during the performances.

I prefer the Eurosport guys as well. If you watch Sasha's LP at the olympics with the eurosport guys they rave about it and give her the credit that she desreved. peggy and dick often keep bringing up the bad points in a program. I think that from the two comparisons, the english seem to prefer artistry, like sasha and yu-na. americans will appluad for the jumps.

 

[hyoo]

After watching all of the the videos posted carolinefan, IMO ESPN and Eurosport have divded into factions--the Mao faction and the YuNa faction. ESPN (Dick Button) clearly favors Mao's lyrical style and lightness to YuNa. Eurosport seems to favor YuNa over Mao, if not quite as blatantly as ESPN but still. Eurosport has good commentary, but I agree with other posters that their commentary is dry sometimes.

I agree that Dick sometimes goes over board and is overly critical, but I agree with Dick on many things. I agree that Mao's posture and stretch is better than YuNa's and I agree that these two things are very very important. Dick is right to nitpick--although he may seem harsh and excessive at times, Dick often makes valid points. The bad turn-out in the layback, wildly swinging free legs going into lutzes, ugly camels, overdone spiral sequences, bad posture, arm positions are what make figure skating a performance sport. These things make a good skater a magnificent skater. Listening to Dick complain about twizzles and other things that seem insignificant at times can be frustrating, but his commnetary is often valid.

Commentators are not just there to list off elements. If that were their jobs, they would be called technical analysts not commentators. Dick's commentary IMO gives ESPN a depth and history that otherwise would not be possible. Dick's sometimes odd, often arcane knowledge provides a background for the commentating to stand on. His commentary has not been of the same standard in recent years, but it is unfair to write him off as a crabby old guy who doesn't know what he is doing. Dick holds a special place in my heart because he vocalizes the not-always-nice comments that are often in my head. Pointed toes, straight backs, soft arms, lightness are IMO what makes figure skating more than a jumping or spinning contest but an art of sorts.:yes:

To address the issue about Mao's porcelain face, I personally do not mind the less expressive face, especially considering her choicein music. Can you imagine a dramatic grimace/smile during her Chopin SP? As the piano music tinkles on, can you imagine Mao squinting her eyes to look dramatic? I think excessive facial drama is if anything worse than Mao's placid expression. I appreciate many of the Kween's skating aspects, but her sometimes excessive drama turned me off from her skating. (Please please please don't hurt me)

 

[mizu_iro]

Can you imagine a dramatic grimace/smile during her Chopin SP? As the piano music tinkles on, can you imagine Mao squinting her eyes to look dramatic?

Her calmness works perfectly for Chopin. But it doesn't at all for Czardas. If you want to do bravura music, you need to have the drama to really express it.

Compare Sasha's Malaguena to Kristi's. I'm sure that there's plenty of Kristi fans out there, but Sasha's fire adds an element to the music that makes it jump out at you.

 

[carolinefan177]

Finally!

Someone who appreciates Dick Button! Hyoo I agree with you 100%!