What Are the Age Restrictions and Do They Make Sense?

[gkelly]

I would say that E. Hughes tends to skate very immaturely but she is in her 20's as well and is physically mature.

Actually Emily turns 19 later this month.

 

[feraina]

I don't know about age restrictions, but I do feel like that young skaters should stay in the normal school system and experience a normal childhood as much as possible. Skaters participating in US Junior National's basically end their season in late November. Likewise, the JGP series takes place much earlier than the GP series, so that most of the fall semester is not impacted (except for the top few who make it to JGPF). I think this is good: these kids don't have the stress of competition or travel until the next summer, and so can concentrate on their schoolwork and being a normal child. I think something like an age restriction is much less practically helpful than, say, moving the competitions all earlier toward the summer. Skating was historically a winter sport, but nowadays almost everyone trains indoors in year-round rink, so the scheduling is simply outdated! It makes much more sense for school-age children to concentrate the bulk of their competitions in the summer. I think we'd see fewer children home-schooled.

Back on topic: I think there is a fundamental conflict between competitive results and the young skaters' health and social welfare -- more training and harder training produce better results, but it may lead to greater chance of injury and also the neglect of education and normal socio-psychological development. Is it the business of a skating body to arbitrate a trade-off between the two? Or should it be up to the individual skaters and families to decide this? Some skaters choose to stay in normal schools, others choose to be home-schooled. Some choose to juggle college and skating, others prefer to focus on skating. No matter how talented/organized you are, of course the more other distractions you have, the less time you have for training, the slower you'd progress, etc. But shouldn't it be an individual's (or family's) personal choice?

Maybe there's a concern that in certain countries, the skating federations might be in the powerful position of forcing or inducing a young skater to train and compete, against his/her wishes or his/her family's wishes. First of all, I think most countries who have a history of (being accused of) practicing this are actually getting better, as their economies improve and the individual families have more financial and sociopolitical independence to make their own choices. Secondly, I think this kind of concern is basically non-existent in developed and individualistic countries who are producing most of the best skaters at the moment.

I think it's quite understanding that some skating fans prefer to see more "mature" skaters on ice. But figure skating, after all, is (still) a sport, not an entertainment. If a young skater competes well with older skaters, then she/he ought to be allowed to compete at that level. If the sport wants to include more "aesthetic/mature" elements into what it considers athletic perfection, then CoP should be changed to take that into account (PCS compared to the old 6.0 presentation score regressed in this respect; it made certain things more explicit, sure, but it did so by focusing on more "athletic" things and ignoring more "artistic" things). If young skaters cannot show artistic maturity, which might be made part of the scoring system, then they wouldn't be competitive at the highest level, and they wouldn't be sent to the top levels of int'l competitions in the first place.

As for young phenoms, occasionally you do get a precocious artist/dancer (like Caroline Z) who skates with artistic maturity. Just think how she brought the house down and outshone the older skaters in many of the exhibitions she participated in, in the past year -- and it is not because of her jumping ability nor even her amazing spins (Lucinda Ruh was never that popular in shows). I think the qualities skaters like her have are quite different than a precocious athletic jumper who moves "juniorish." Of course different people look for different things in figure skating, but the performance aspect of figure skating for me most resembles ballet. Ballet dancers often move beautifully, but most of the top ballerinas wouldn't be considered to have particularly feminine body by normal standards -- and is ballet going into decline because of this? No. So if a young skater really skates with performance maturity, as well as the technical content, why would you exclude that skater from the top level of competition if these are the components most valued in the sport? If the goal is to dock skaters because they move immaturely despite an arsenal of jumps, then having a blanket age restriction is not the answer. The scoring rules should be changed, instead, to reward mature movement/posture and penalize otherwise.

Someone was talking about not wanting to see a young phenom taking a major title and then disappear from the scene with major injuries. I think what the age limit does is to stop the audience from seeing such upset victories happen, it does not stop the major injuries from happening. The difference is that some very talented young skaters retire from skating with serious injuries before they have a chance to compete at any high level of competition. Is this really better??

A final thought on ice dancing. I don't think the delayed onset of emotional/performance maturity is the main reason for the lack of young phenoms in ice dancing. I think primarily it's because most young skaters gravitate toward free skating at the beginning, and it's only later on that some discover they don't have the jumping skills or strong knees or maybe the right physique, to continue with the physical demands of free skating, so then some choose to switch. If most ice dancers start seriously between 10 and 15, then of course you are not going to see too many ice dancing phenoms. If ice dancing was more popular with very young skaters, I don't see why that wouldn't start to happen. To some extent, we are already start to see that as ice dancing becomes more popular in the US -- Samuelson & Bates come to mind. I'm just thinking of some phenomal young ballerinas who get courted by major ballet companies at 14/15. Once in a while, you really get a skater/dancer who can perform beyond their years!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

As to the Corps des Ballet, there is the perrenial Nutcracker which works for all ages of children. Some of the more talented ones at 14/15 do get to do some serious but minor dancing in classical ballet during Nutcracker season. and moreso in Ballanchine's grand Sleeping Beauty Waltz.

They are also trained to dance with emotion -not so in figure skating. There is no reason to do so. They should train to win competitions and at a certain age think about giving a performance but not at 14, please!

Joe

 

[feraina]

Katherine Healy, a beautiful ballerina on ice (even more successful one off ice ), has the following excerpts from her Wikipedia entry:

In 1984, at the age of 15, she joined the London Festival Ballet (now the English National Ballet) as a senior principal dancer, and performed with that company for two seasons. During her time in England, she performed roles such as Swanilda in Coppelia, and the principal roles in Etudes, Nutcracker, Balanchine's Tchaikovsky Pas de Deux and the Don Quixote Pas de Deux.

Katherine skating at age 10:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcw1nrhb4cI

I happen to know about her b/c she was also a skater. But I'm sure there are other great ballerinas who started dancing major roles in major companies from early teens.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Katherine Healy, a beautiful ballerina on ice (even more successful one off ice ), has the following excerpts from her Wikipedia entry:



Katherine skating at age 10:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcw1nrhb4cI

I happen to know about her b/c she was also a skater. But I'm sure there are other great ballerinas who started dancing major roles in major companies from early teens.

I have seen her often as she performs and choreographs for the IceTheatre of New York. A very talented young lady indeed. She did 180 degree Spirals long before they became a basic. However, at her best, she could never compete for points nowadays.

Joe

 

[gkelly]

It makes much more sense for school-age children to concentrate the bulk of their competitions in the summer. I think we'd see fewer children home-schooled.

A lot of good points in this post . . . although I think the home schooling option often has as much to do with cutting down traveling time between home, school, and rink(s) and with being able to use emptier ice times during the day every week as it does with the few weeks of travel for competition.

A final thought on ice dancing. I don't think the delayed onset of emotional/performance maturity is the main reason for the lack of young phenoms in ice dancing. I think primarily it's because most young skaters gravitate toward free skating at the beginning, and it's only later on that some discover they don't have the jumping skills or strong knees or maybe the right physique, to continue with the physical demands of free skating, so then some choose to switch.

I'm with you except for the strong knees, which are definitely needed in ice dance!

If most ice dancers start seriously between 10 and 15, then of course you are not going to see too many ice dancing phenoms. If ice dancing was more popular with very young skaters, I don't see why that wouldn't start to happen.

We have seen some, though. Since the girls tend to be younger . . . Jessica Joseph (an older 15 in 1998) and Jamie Silverstein (a young 16 in 2000) both went to Worlds the first year they were age eligible under the current rules. Marina Klimova won an Olympic medal at 17. Tatiana Navka won Skate America at 16 and was top 10 at Worlds the following season, might have been in 92 as well if Belarus had fielded a separate team that year. Tessa Virtue did better than Navka in her world debut at 17 . . .

Representing smaller skating countries, they could have been competing at the world level even younger.

Winning world medals at 15 or 16 or younger (if allowed) is highly unlikely in ice dance because experience and physical maturity often help with the basic skating technique and presentation but the latter at least often hurts with jumping.

 

[feraina]

I'm with you except for the strong knees, which are definitely needed in ice dance!

Sorry, I didn't express myself clearly. You clearly strong skating knees and a good knee bend for ice dancing. But there have been skaters who switched to ice dancing because their knees cannot withstand the pounding of the jump landings. That's what I meant.

 

[attyfan]

yes, agreed that jumping put a lot of strain on a young body, the rule donsen't make sense becasue these skaters still try 3 axels, 3/3 combos, quads if they go to worlds or not. Even in juniors Mao was landing 2 triple axles, 3/3 combos... yes the pressure wasn't as high for her to land them, but if the ISU really wanted to help the young skaters they would not be allowed to comepet at the GPF, or Nationals, both very stressful competitons.

another point is that by preventing young skaters who have the ablity from competing at and possibly winning world championships and or the olympics they are pressured to stay in the sport longer, train the jumps longer until so they can get in "next time" and as thier body ages they are more prone to injury...where is the benifit?

Maybe, if skaters and coaches realize that they have to "stick around for a while", they won't train the hard jumps at juniors precisely to reduce the chances of injury before they get to senior level.

I would like to see the following rules in place: (a) uniform age limit for all ISU senior events; and (b) controls on the jumps permissible at junior ISU events. Maybe, to insure that young skaters are not practicing heavy jumps to compete at senior nationals (where the ISU cannot set age limits), it could mandate that skaters can only go to junior ISU events from junior nationals, so skaters too young for senior ISU events will be discouraged from going to senior Nationals (i.e., too-young skater who goes to junior nationals can still go to junior worlds; too young skater who goes to senior nationals can't go to any worlds at all -- too young for seniors and disqualified from juniors).

By keeping over-young skaters from doing the heavy jumps until they are at senior level, it may prevent injuries -- at least on the most vulnerable.

 

[SusanBeth]

Maybe, if skaters and coaches realize that they have to "stick around for a while", they won't train the hard jumps at juniors precisely to reduce the chances of injury before they get to senior level.

I would like to see the following rules in place: (a) uniform age limit for all ISU senior events; and (b) controls on the jumps permissible at junior ISU events. Maybe, to insure that young skaters are not practicing heavy jumps to compete at senior nationals (where the ISU cannot set age limits), it could mandate that skaters can only go to junior ISU events from junior nationals, so skaters too young for senior ISU events will be discouraged from going to senior Nationals (i.e., too-young skater who goes to junior nationals can still go to junior worlds; too young skater who goes to senior nationals can't go to any worlds at all -- too young for seniors and disqualified from juniors).

By keeping over-young skaters from doing the heavy jumps until they are at senior level, it may prevent injuries -- at least on the most vulnerable.

Great rules! They might also provide more time for young skaters to work on their technique and really master the basic skating skills.

 

[gkelly]

I would like to see the following rules in place: (a) uniform age limit for all ISU senior events;

This would be an ISU ruling, and it makes sense to me.

(b) controls on the jumps permissible at junior ISU events.

The ISU could do this, and national federations would likely follow ISU rules for junior program content in their national competitions. It would probably reduce the number of jump-related injuries, but it wouldn't prevent them completely because skaters would still be starting to try to learn them a year or more before they're allowed to use them in competition.

Maybe, to insure that young skaters are not practicing heavy jumps to compete at senior nationals (where the ISU cannot set age limits), it could mandate that skaters can only go to junior ISU events from junior nationals, so skaters too young for senior ISU events will be discouraged from going to senior Nationals (i.e., too-young skater who goes to junior nationals can still go to junior worlds; too young skater who goes to senior nationals can't go to any worlds at all -- too young for seniors and disqualified from juniors).

Now, this would not be an ISU ruling. The ISU has no say over how individual national federations choose their teams for international events. There are many different ways of doing it among the different member federations. Who are you proposing would make this mandate -- the ISU can't police it for all member countries, and the different national federations have different circumstances to take into consideration when deciding how to structure their national competitions and how to choose their international teams. What works for the US or Canada or Russia or Japan (all of whom do it somewhat differently from each other, BTW) might not work for Mexico or Australia or Estonia, and vice versa.

 

[Bennett]

I would like to see the following rules in place: (a) uniform age limit for all ISU senior events; and (b) controls on the jumps permissible at junior ISU events. Maybe, to insure that young skaters are not practicing heavy jumps to compete at senior nationals (where the ISU cannot set age limits), it could mandate that skaters can only go to junior ISU events from junior nationals, so skaters too young for senior ISU events will be discouraged from going to senior Nationals (i.e., too-young skater who goes to junior nationals can still go to junior worlds; too young skater who goes to senior nationals can't go to any worlds at all -- too young for seniors and disqualified from juniors).
.

Cool. Which jumps may be heavy jumps?

 

[SusanBeth]

Cool. Which jumps may be heavy jumps?

IMO, we'd really need input from medical professionals to determine how risky each jump is to a child's body. I feel certain that 3L/3L would be out. It probably shouldn't be done period. That combination is brutal, but I think everyone's been made aware of that already. I have concerns about the take off of a solo 3L. Repeatedly doing that jump can't be good. I would imagine that 3A's and quads could do a lot of damage to an immature body too. Look at what repeatedly attempting quads has done to grown men. It would be interesting to get a Doctor's opinion about the relative dangers of the jumps and how young is too young..

It shouldn't be just a matter of limiting the jumps. I think some of the lifts pair skaters do are scary.. One tiny mistake could cause a tragedy.

 

[feraina]

It shouldn't be just a matter of limiting the jumps. I think some of the lifts pair skaters do are scary.. One tiny mistake could cause a tragedy.

Once you start limiting technical content, it's a slippery slope. How do you know where to stop? Skaters get horrendous injuries from simple elements as well as hard ones. Face it, skating is an inherently dangerous sport.

Maybe we should keep kids from skating altogether until they're 13. :chorus:

 

[sillylionlove]

All I have to say is that the age rules make no sense to me!!!!

 

[dwiggin3]

I don't know about age restrictions, but I do feel like that young skaters should stay in the normal school system and experience a normal childhood as much as possible. Skaters participating in US Junior National's basically end their season in late November. Likewise, the JGP series takes place much earlier than the GP series, so that most of the fall semester is not impacted (except for the top few who make it to JGPF). I think this is good: these kids don't have the stress of competition or travel until the next summer, and so can concentrate on their schoolwork and being a normal child. I think something like an age restriction is much less practically helpful than, say, moving the competitions all earlier toward the summer. Skating was historically a winter sport, but nowadays almost everyone trains indoors in year-round rink, so the scheduling is simply outdated! It makes much more sense for school-age children to concentrate the bulk of their competitions in the summer. I think we'd see fewer children home-schooled.

Back on topic: I think there is a fundamental conflict between competitive results and the young skaters' health and social welfare -- more training and harder training produce better results, but it may lead to greater chance of injury and also the neglect of education and normal socio-psychological development. Is it the business of a skating body to arbitrate a trade-off between the two? Or should it be up to the individual skaters and families to decide this? Some skaters choose to stay in normal schools, others choose to be home-schooled. Some choose to juggle college and skating, others prefer to focus on skating. No matter how talented/organized you are, of course the more other distractions you have, the less time you have for training, the slower you'd progress, etc. But shouldn't it be an individual's (or family's) personal choice?

Maybe there's a concern that in certain countries, the skating federations might be in the powerful position of forcing or inducing a young skater to train and compete, against his/her wishes or his/her family's wishes. First of all, I think most countries who have a history of (being accused of) practicing this are actually getting better, as their economies improve and the individual families have more financial and sociopolitical independence to make their own choices. Secondly, I think this kind of concern is basically non-existent in developed and individualistic countries who are producing most of the best skaters at the moment.

I think it's quite understanding that some skating fans prefer to see more "mature" skaters on ice. But figure skating, after all, is (still) a sport, not an entertainment. If a young skater competes well with older skaters, then she/he ought to be allowed to compete at that level. If the sport wants to include more "aesthetic/mature" elements into what it considers athletic perfection, then CoP should be changed to take that into account (PCS compared to the old 6.0 presentation score regressed in this respect; it made certain things more explicit, sure, but it did so by focusing on more "athletic" things and ignoring more "artistic" things). If young skaters cannot show artistic maturity, which might be made part of the scoring system, then they wouldn't be competitive at the highest level, and they wouldn't be sent to the top levels of int'l competitions in the first place.

As for young phenoms, occasionally you do get a precocious artist/dancer (like Caroline Z) who skates with artistic maturity. Just think how she brought the house down and outshone the older skaters in many of the exhibitions she participated in, in the past year -- and it is not because of her jumping ability nor even her amazing spins (Lucinda Ruh was never that popular in shows). I think the qualities skaters like her have are quite different than a precocious athletic jumper who moves "juniorish." Of course different people look for different things in figure skating, but the performance aspect of figure skating for me most resembles ballet. Ballet dancers often move beautifully, but most of the top ballerinas wouldn't be considered to have particularly feminine body by normal standards -- and is ballet going into decline because of this? No. So if a young skater really skates with performance maturity, as well as the technical content, why would you exclude that skater from the top level of competition if these are the components most valued in the sport? If the goal is to dock skaters because they move immaturely despite an arsenal of jumps, then having a blanket age restriction is not the answer. The scoring rules should be changed, instead, to reward mature movement/posture and penalize otherwise.

Someone was talking about not wanting to see a young phenom taking a major title and then disappear from the scene with major injuries. I think what the age limit does is to stop the audience from seeing such upset victories happen, it does not stop the major injuries from happening. The difference is that some very talented young skaters retire from skating with serious injuries before they have a chance to compete at any high level of competition. Is this really better??

A final thought on ice dancing. I don't think the delayed onset of emotional/performance maturity is the main reason for the lack of young phenoms in ice dancing. I think primarily it's because most young skaters gravitate toward free skating at the beginning, and it's only later on that some discover they don't have the jumping skills or strong knees or maybe the right physique, to continue with the physical demands of free skating, so then some choose to switch. If most ice dancers start seriously between 10 and 15, then of course you are not going to see too many ice dancing phenoms. If ice dancing was more popular with very young skaters, I don't see why that wouldn't start to happen. To some extent, we are already start to see that as ice dancing becomes more popular in the US -- Samuelson & Bates come to mind. I'm just thinking of some phenomal young ballerinas who get courted by major ballet companies at 14/15. Once in a while, you really get a skater/dancer who can perform beyond their years!

Very nicely put. We agree and we disagree but nicely said

 

[SusanBeth]

Once you start limiting technical content, it's a slippery slope. How do you know where to stop? Skaters get horrendous injuries from simple elements as well as hard ones. Face it, skating is an inherently dangerous sport.

Maybe we should keep kids from skating altogether until they're 13. :chorus:

We are talking about the health and safety of very young children. I take it seriously. I have a brother who was a very talented pitcher. He was taught to throw fast balls and curves too young. By the time he was old enough to really see his dream come true, his arm and shoulder were so badly damaged he couldn't toss a frisbee without pain. That was over 40 years ago and he still has pain. I can't imagine the kind of suffering figure skating injuries can cause, If there is a way of preventing it, I do think we have an obligation to do so. These days, young children aren't taught to throw fast balls and curves until their arms and shoulders are mature enough to handle it. Guess what? Baseball has survived.