What determines the difficulty of a jump combination?

[CarneAsada]

Possibly the ISU felt that a 3T+3T combination was undervalued in the past, and the current value is what it should, in fairness, have been all along. It used to be 4.0. Now its 4.3. Which is right? Which is wrong? Which requires justification and which is, oh well, it has to be something so why not this?

To tell the truth, I am not alarmed by the increase in base value for the triple toe. A skater who does 3T+3T gets 0.4 points more this year than last.

How. Some say the 3Lz-2T is already more difficult than a 3T-3T; now the difference is even more. Same for something like 3A-2T vs. 3Lz-3T. X-3T combinations were already over-rewarded in comparison to X-3Lo combinations in BOTH BV and GOE (3T lends itself better to hitting the bullets. Who actually has flow out of a 3-3Lo? Nobody ever). One could say they wanted more of a difference between the 2A and the easiest triples, but that's still quite a weak justification.

 

[Mathman]

^ If you look at actual competitons it is hard to see how the changes in the base values in the triple toe and triple Salchow are going to have much effect at all. For instance, if the 2014 Olympic long programs had used the new values instead of the old, Kim, Gold, and Lipnitskaia would have got an extra 0.62 points, Sotnikova would have got an extra 0.64 points, and Kostner (who did 2 of each) would have got at extra 0.86 points. Everyone's score gets elevated by a pretty much the same amount, with no change in the outcome.

As to the value of the 3Lz+2T combination, it is not so clear to me that this should be worth a whole, whole, whole lot more than a solo triple Lutz. Top skaters can tack a double toe onto just about any well landed jump. Maybe the ISU feels that any triple-triple is better than no triple-triple.

 

[sequinsgalore]

Right now there is only an implicit reward for difficult combos, as it allows you to do more triples IF you have at least 4 different triples in your repetoire.

But if you only have 3 different triples, you are not rewarded for doing a 3-3 in the FS, as you can maximize your GOE (and lessen the risk) by doing easier combos. I would like to see some form of reward that encourages skaters to execute their hardest combos, also in the FS.

Also, the difference in difficulty is not reflected in 3S+1Lo+3F (harder) and 3F+1Lo+3S (easier) or 2Lo+3Lo (harder) and 3Lo+2Lo (easier). And switching these around will not affect jump boxes, so there is no implicit reward here.

 

[leafygreens]

For the SP maybe. Not for the FS. Who can do all of their jumping passes in the latter half of a free program? :shocked:

Well Medvedeva did, so I'm wondering if the next generation of skaters are training themselves to get used to this type of jumping stamina. They are also doing more jumps with overhead arms. I think there will come a point where ISU will start devaluing these bonuses because it's "too easy" like they did with restrictions on L4 spins.

 

[aromaticchicken]

All is a stretch. But I think the standard will be what Hanyu won the Olympics with. Three big jumps right at the beginning. Fool around until the second half begins. Then 5 jumping passes in a row. Then the rest of the program.

The whole point of the second half bonus was to get skaters to spread their jumping passes out throughout the program (for purposes of program values and choreography), rather than bunch them all up at the beginning. It didn't work out exactly how the ISU hoped.

I beg to differ. The fact Hanyu has difficult jumps in the beginning AND at the second half is both exciting and extremely athletically demanding even if he is fooling around for a bit in between. It's far better than the alternative, where skaters (as they did in the SP until last year) would just do all of their jumps in order of difficulty, completing all the difficult ones right away. In the 6.0 system judges actually did take it into account, which is why Todd Eldredge would throw his 3A at the end and why Michelle Kwan always did her second lutz last or second to last.

I find Hanyu's second half stretch of 3A combinations some of the most exciting parts of skating, especially with him, because you never know if he will be in the right physical shape at that moment in the program to execute it.... and when he does, then WOW he *should* be rewarded!!!

Hanyu's programs are a prime example of what the ISU *was* going for in a champion performance, and when he skates clean, it is very clear he deserves the point rewards for it.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

This is not a positive feature of the scoring system, however.

Well there are positives. If a move is overvalued relative to other moves, more skaters will take advantage of that and it might indicate that it's value might need to be modified in the following iteration of the scoring system. We have seen changes in the value of jumps and elimination of 3 2A's already. The combos still need to be addressed IMO because we are still seeing too many 2A-3T's.

 

[HanDomi]

I beg to differ. The fact Hanyu has difficult jumps in the beginning AND at the second half is both exciting and extremely athletically demanding even if he is fooling around for a bit in between. It's far better than the alternative, where skaters (as they did in the SP until last year) would just do all of their jumps in order of difficulty, completing all the difficult ones right away. In the 6.0 system judges actually did take it into account, which is why Todd Eldredge would throw his 3A at the end and why Michelle Kwan always did her second lutz last or second to last.

I find Hanyu's second half stretch of 3A combinations some of the most exciting parts of skating, especially with him, because you never know if he will be in the right physical shape at that moment in the program to execute it.... and when he does, then WOW he *should* be rewarded!!!

Hanyu's programs are a prime example of what the ISU *was* going for in a champion performance, and when he skates clean, it is very clear he deserves the point rewards for it.

I agree. 2x 3A-3 combinations in 2nd half in my opinion is very demanding physically, and yet this year he is going to add 3rd quad in 2nd half before those combinations so it will be even harder

 

[AsadaFanBoy]

I agree. 2x 3A-3 combinations in 2nd half in my opinion is very demanding physically, and yet this year he is going to add 3rd quad in 2nd half before those combinations so it will be even harder

Oh sweet lord. Is he trying to break himself?

 

[Bonnie F]

I would take away the second half bonus for both programs but make a rule that at least one jumping pass in the short and three in the long must be performed after the half way point or else a deduction of ten percent would occur for the pass.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

The ISU should just stop meddling with the rules year after year. I like the second half bonus in the FS. I don't even care if someone wants to do all jumping passes in the last half. More power to them. I may not like a program like that but I'm certainly not going to tell people how to skate their programs.

I wouldn't be upset if they dropped the second half bonus in the SP but I certainly wouldn't mind if they kept it.

 

[Mathman]

We should not forget that the temptation to use performance enhancing substances or methods has certainly increased because of the bonus for jumps in the 2nd half of the program. I don't think that the ISU has ever tought about that.

That is an interesting point, and one that I don't think anyone has much considered.

Figure skating has always been relatively free of the problem of performance enhancing drugs because it is not clear whether they help a skater's performance or not. But if the sport becomes more of a stamina contest or an endurance race, as you say, there might be greater temptations.

 

[kiches]

I agree. 2x 3A-3 combinations in 2nd half in my opinion is very demanding physically, and yet this year he is going to add 3rd quad in 2nd half before those combinations so it will be even harder

Actually Hanyu had planned to do the quad combo last season along with the two 3A-3, but well, things happened and he subbed in the 3Lz-2T instead to make it easier but overall it was still a very demanding freeskate.

Hanyu still orders his jumps from toughest (for him) to easier. He does both quads in the first half, then the flip which he's had difficulties with the edge. From there it's the quad combo, the axel combos, then the other solo triples. His layouts takes advantage of his abilities with the 3A AND the second-half bonus, and I like the spread of his jumps and other choreography. For me it's pretty well balanced and exciting, but without the second half bonus I wonder if we would've seen the quad combo attempted in the first half instead of the flip, we may never know.

I do however dislike the idea of doing all the jumps in the second half for the SP since I do think it can lead to bad choreography (and their choreography score should reflect this) and there are only a total of 3 jumps/combo required in the short to begin with. My guess is that we'll see more female skaters attempt this to maximize their BV after Medvedeva (I think I read somewhere that Higuchi was going to try this next year in her short?), but it may not become the norm. I think if more ladies were doing 3A or quads in their programs it'd be a different story. As it is I think there are few men who even do 2 jumps in the second half of a SP because of the amount of energy and risk involved.

 

[Alchamei]

I'm glad this discusion turned into a long one. However, I would like to bring back the issue of the first post. In this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFrzG9p_Xs0&feature=youtu.be&t=55s, Scott Hamilton talks about Surya and her 3T-3T she used instead of 3Lz-2T. He says the the combo is well done, but it is easier than the Lutz combo and the judges marks will reflect that. What combo is more difficult in your opinion?

The first one is easier to decide, but there is another example from Vancouver. Yuna had 3Lz-3T and Mao had 3A-2T. The BV were almost the same and Yuna even had an advantage. What combination is more difficult? It's not easy to perform a 3-3 combo but the 3A is maybe even more difficult.

 

[Mathman]

I'm glad this discusion turned into a long one. However, I would like to bring back the issue of the first post. In this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFrzG9p_Xs0&feature=youtu.be&t=55s, Scott Hamilton talks about Surya and her 3T-3T she used instead of 3Lz-2T. He says the the combo is well done, but it is easier than the Lutz combo and the judges marks will reflect that. What combo is more difficult in your opinion?

Is Scott talking about a 3Lz+2T combination, or 3Lz+3T. He only says that she was having trouble with the Lutz in practice, so she substituted an easier 3T+3T for her usual triple Lutz combination. In context, it sounds more like he means that 3Lz+3T is harder than 3T+3T. (?)

The first one is easier to decide, but there is another example from Vancouver. Yuna had 3Lz-3T and Mao had 3A-2T. The BV were almost the same and Yuna even had an advantage. What combination is more difficult? It's not easy to perform a 3-3 combo but the 3A is maybe even more difficult.

I agree that this is difficult to decide. A triple Axel is super hard all by itself. But if you can do a triple Axel at all, is it super hard to add a double toe? The rules give you big points for the 3A but not much extra for the second (double) jump.

The real "bonus" in doing a 3A+2T is that then you are permitted to do another (solo) 3A. That way you get credit for two monster jumps without Zayak problems. In total, 3A+2T and 3A will score higher than, say, 3Lz+3T and 3Lz.

 

[Blades of Passion]

But if you can do a triple Axel at all, is it super hard to add a double toe?

It's more of a mental thing, knowing the first jump has to be secure enough to do the next jump. Being able to come out of the double toe with flow, as opposed to just landing flat because you have no momentum left, is part of it too.

 

[russianbratz]

Overall I don't have a huge problem with the bonus, Medvedeva style program, as much as the like-scoring of different combinations. For Tuk especially, opening with a 3A kind of makes up for a 3T+3T in the bonus. On the other hand when Tuk doesn't have the 3A, she looks pretty mediocre to me. If Mao was going to compete against Tuk I'd like to see her get significantly rewarded for doing a 3F+3Lo, which few people do.

 

[AsadaFanBoy]

I'd like to see the bonus be applied at the 75% point of the program - after 75% of the program time has elapsed, there is a bonus with a multiplier that makes it worth it to do a 3-3 at the end. I also think that goe should have a multiplier if the element is performed after the 3/4 mark. If it's good GOE is amplified...if it's poorly done, then the penalty is more severe than it usually would be. I feel like it's more exciting and incentivizes putting a really good jumping pass at the end. If you can't do it well with that kind of bonus structure, then do what you can do really well and max out your potential.

Having jumping passes all at once (read: the second the current second half bonus kicks in) just makes the program look sloppy and carelessly constructed.

Do the best of what you can do, not some sloppy gaming the system program.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

It's a good thought but without getting into details. I already think jumps play a big enough part in the final placements.

 

[AsadaFanBoy]

Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't.

I'd rather see three triple lutzes over two programs than four triple toe loops...

 

[solani]

I think that if we're fine with men doing 3Lz-3T in the short we shouldn't have a problem with women doing 3T-3T. I can understand that skaters want to play it safe in the short, and the reward for going for more difficult combos is minimal (altough some say that affects the PCS ...). I'm sure that f.e. Elizaveta is perfectly capable of doing a 3Lz-3T, but what for? She hasn't had problems with her 3T-3T all season and therefore she was able to move it to the second half of the program. I guess Mishin knows that you shouldn't change something that works so well. Back in the old judging system Elizaveta would try to do 3Lz-3T and Hanyu and Fernandez would go for 4T-3T or 4S-3T.