What determines the difficulty of a jump combination?

[OS]

^ If you look at actual competitons it is hard to see how the changes in the base values in the triple toe and triple Salchow are going to have much effect at all. For instance, if the 2014 Olympic long programs had used the new values instead of the old, Kim, Gold, and Lipnitskaia would have got an extra 0.62 points, Sotnikova would have got an extra 0.64 points, and Kostner (who did 2 of each) would have got at extra 0.86 points. Everyone's score gets elevated by a pretty much the same amount, with no change in the outcome.

As to the value of the 3Lz+2T combination, it is not so clear to me that this should be worth a whole, whole, whole lot more than a solo triple Lutz. Top skaters can tack a double toe onto just about any well landed jump. Maybe the ISU feels that any triple-triple is better than no triple-triple.

But that is the thing. It is not about 0.2 points here and there. Points are meaningless without the context of who are competing, how they are used, how the field have competed and how they are applied. What is good skating? What makes a good competitive sport? What makes difficulty of a jump combination? Is it the one with the best choreography, well executed program that able to integrate and elevate all the elements together with the music with suitable choreographic transitions to express something profound or just points gathering exercise? A good sport require a healthy balance of competitive variability for everybody to compete more or less equally in the methods of their choosing. A poor sport is one with rules and conditions which only allows a few 'privileged' competitors chance to podium, while everyone else can only compete on the privileged skaters' mistakes.

This is not about the the Kim, Gold, Lipnitskaia I am concerned about. It is about everyone else. Or more precisely - it is about the likes of them 'before' they became such household names of the figure skating world to compete with the leaders of the sport, say Michelle Kwan. Under current system, by approximately equating the value of easiest and hardest, and even allow the easiest to surpass the hardest after half way mark, now theoretically as long as Michelle does 3T3T in the second half of all her programs due to the way PCS and sometimes GOEs are applied to the elite skaters. Everyone else has practically little chance EVEN when they bring a 3A/any difficult triple triple combos (unless they also do them in second half) which is the only area they can compete on since they don't have the PCS, and very likely GOEs without a few more consistent competitions before the judges marks are able to catch up.

Thinking back now, it was a blessing we had Yuna and Mao who uphold the ladies technical standards when they totally didn't have to. They are not only aiming just to win, but to uphold elite standards of what the best of this sport is capable of at the highest level. They could have totally got away with what Carolina's strategy - conservative content, grow consistency, compete on PCS and reputation. Or Miki Ando/Morozov choreography in WC2011 FS - 8 of her 11 jump elements were stacked one after another immediately after half way point with little or no choreography/transitioning in between. Totally exploit the half way system, 2nd half heavy while first half other than the opening combos are all about time wasting, posing 'artistic' meandering choreography from the same spot, take full advantage of slow music for breathing space before the set up for jumping marathon points crunching. She didn't even need a 3/3 to manage this. Its choreography score is less than 0.29 difference from something like Homage to Korea. So clearly having good balanced choreography don't mean much either. Like it or not. Liza will rule even without good choreography and she don't even need the 3A to do it. She just need 3T3T after half way point because of inadequacy of COP including judging tendencies. She and others like her. Last season's 'competitive' scene has become bit embarrassing, it has become a game of chicken, as long as the top tier skaters goes relatively clean following easiest and safest tech content to ensure consistency, nobody has a chance to get close. Weirdly, they actually benefit from judging latency effect be part of their points 'gathering/keeping/momentum brewing' campaign. When judges inflate certain skaters despite a poor performance, it actually benefit their next skate - should they do well. It actually made no sense to do your best every time, but more like don't do too well too early, it ain't worth it. It can hurt your later season competitions. What makes it frustrating is ISU is apparently totally endorsing this direction of the sport with these latest point value changes by reducing the only area where skaters outside the top contenders can compete on, and that is difficulty.

 

[gravy]

I'm a newb when it comes to the IJS.

If a skater does a 3A+2T, the GOE factor gained from that combo will be based on the 3A.

However, if a skater does a one-foot axel into a quad salchow (1A+4S) a la Michael Chack, will the GOE factor only be applied based on the first 1A even though a 4S is executed?

 

[solani]

@os168
I don't think that Carlina was being conservative, she made too many errors throughout her career. I guess you have to be able to cope with you jumping content mentally. And she did 3F-3T in her Sochi short so she was really taking a risk there. I think that growing and puberty affected her jumping ability and consistency. She was a very good jumper afterwards, but I'll always remember her 3F-3T-2L combo at Worlds in 2005, it just looked so easy.

 

[OS]

@os168
I don't think that Carlina was being conservative, she made too many errors throughout her career. I guess you have to be able to cope with you jumping content mentally. And she did 3F-3T in her Sochi short so she was really taking a risk there. I think that growing and puberty affected her jumping ability and consistency. She was a very good jumper afterwards, but I'll always remember her 3F-3T-2L combo at Worlds in 2005, it just looked so easy.

Carolina was fabulous at Sochi, but it is also true she has enough goods to compete based on her PCS alone as long as there are no Yuna/Mao/jumpers like Liza/Miki around with strong tech. Despite her inconsistencies, it never seem to have hurt her PCS, a large part has to do with the prestige of European #1 status and one for the grand dame still around. Something the Russian youngsters/Javier are going to inherit. I am aware of her injuries around 2012 to come up with such a strategy, which make sense for her at the time (i don't blame her), however, the strategy has proven to have worked so well, a lot has to do with the judges willingness to go along with it, it became a vulnerability to exploit by those who doesn't her problem with injuries, that doesn't deserve as high as PCS as she does, but still able to exploit the weird judging bio rhythm that we have came to accept as norm (PCS inflation taken for granted at certain events, early season, end season, national/home/friendly event advantages, at major championships as each federation judges tries to out do the previous event in supporting their own skaters. By having the right competitions, with the right judging panel, it more than compensate for any technical weaknesses.)

 

[solani]

Carolina was fabulous at Sochi, but it is also true she has enough goods to compete based on her PCS alone as long as there are no Yuna/Mao/jumpers like Liza/Miki around with strong tech. Despite her inconsistencies, it never seem to have hurt her PCS, a large part has to do with the prestige of European #1 status and one for the grand dame still around. Something the Russian youngsters/Javier are going to inherit. I am aware of her injuries around 2012 to come up with such a strategy, which make sense for her at the time (i don't blame her), however, the strategy has proven to have worked so well, a lot has to do with the judges willingness to go along with it, it became a vulnerability to exploit by those who doesn't her problem with injuries, that doesn't deserve as high as PCS as she does, but still able to exploit the weird judging bio rhythm that we have came to accept as norm (PCS inflation taken for granted at certain events, early season, end season, national/home/friendly event advantages, at major championships as each federation judges tries to out do the previous event in supporting their own skaters. By having the right competitions, with the right judging panel, it more than compensate for any technical weaknesses.)

I agree that being European champion always helped her. And yes, she was often conservative at Europeans, but never at Worlds as far as I remember. CoP helped her a lot.

Regarding the difficulty of 3-jump combinations: I think we all agree that f.e. a 3F-3T-2L is more demanding than a 3F-3T-2T, because the skater is capable of doing a Loop in combination. I'm sure that judges take that into account in the PCS, but it should be something that the audience can also comprehend easily.

 

[russianbratz]

I think that if we're fine with men doing 3Lz-3T in the short we shouldn't have a problem with women doing 3T-3T. I can understand that skaters want to play it safe in the short, and the reward for going for more difficult combos is minimal (altough some say that affects the PCS ...). I'm sure that f.e. Elizaveta is perfectly capable of doing a 3Lz-3T, but what for? She hasn't had problems with her 3T-3T all season and therefore she was able to move it to the second half of the program. I guess Mishin knows that you shouldn't change something that works so well. Back in the old judging system Elizaveta would try to do 3Lz-3T and Hanyu and Fernandez would go for 4T-3T or 4S-3T.

Huh? But men are doing quads as their stand alone jump, and triple axels. If anything women need to step up their game across the board, because the field of ladies who can do a basic triple triple is too deep.

 

[AsadaFanBoy]

I feel like that isn't comparable due to differences in build. While it's true ladies can do triple triples, they're often with incorrect edges on the edge jumps and underrotations on the second jump in the combination. The men don't seem to have this problem as often...and it looks like it's due to the differences in build between the top male skaters and the top lady skaters. The difference in build er um, after puberty.

 

[Wo|flax]

I'm a newb when it comes to the IJS.

If a skater does a 3A+2T, the GOE factor gained from that combo will be based on the 3A.

However, if a skater does a one-foot axel into a quad salchow (1A+4S) a la Michael Chack, will the GOE factor only be applied based on the first 1A even though a 4S is executed?

IIRC GOE factor is based on the most difficult jump.

 

[russianbratz]

I feel like that isn't comparable due to differences in build. While it's true ladies can do triple triples, they're often with incorrect edges on the edge jumps and underrotations on the second jump in the combination. The men don't seem to have this problem as often...and it looks like it's due to the differences in build between the top male skaters and the top lady skaters. The difference in build er um, after puberty.

To some degree I think protocols play a bigger roll in women's skating because there's no other way to differentiate the competition. I mean its true: Hanyu will always have hips like a 12 year old boy, let alone like an adult man vs a woman. I think women are capable of some of these elements though. Its just the nature of sport that you find the greatest natural competitors and keep pushing the envelope.

 

[solani]

Huh? But men are doing quads as their stand alone jump, and triple axels. If anything women need to step up their game across the board, because the field of ladies who can do a basic triple triple is too deep.

I disagree. Men had to do quad-triple combos a couple of years ago to be able to win and now the don't need to do it. And this thread is about the difficulty of combinations, and I think we all agree that a 4T-3T is more difficult than a 3Lz-3T. Women have upped their tech massively in the last couple of years.

 

[russianbratz]

I disagree. Men had to do quad-triple combos a couple of years ago to be able to win and now the don't need to do it. And this thread is about the difficulty of combinations, and I think we all agree that a 4T-3T is more difficult than a 3Lz-3T. Women have upped their tech massively in the last couple of years.

I think we can all agree that Yuzur Hanyu's 4T is several levels of magnitude harder than Gracie Gold's 3Lo. Mao and Yuna set the standard in Vancouver 5 years ago. Now it is not just the top few skaters attempting these elements. Every upcoming junior, last year's top seniors, and even Ashley Wagner are doing triple-triples. So to say we should be satisfied with 3T+3T among the ladies, because the men are doing a 3Lz+3T is ridiculous and borderline sexist really. We should be expecting women athletes to attain the most difficult combinations possible, based on precedent and current competition. That is the nature of sport.

 

[Mathman]

At the 2015 World Championships only 3 men dared to try a quad-triple combo in the short program (Voronov, Lam, and Kovtun). All the rest backed off with an easier jump layout because they could get the same number of points without doing the hardest combo.

Seven ladies took a shot at the 3Lz+3T.

 

[andromache]

At the 2015 World Championships only 3 men dared to try a quad-triple combo in the short program (Voronov, Lam, and Kovtun). All the rest backed off with an easier jump layout because they could get the same number of points without doing the hardest combo.

Seven ladies took a shot at the 3Lz+3T.

IMO, this stat really shows that difficult combos deserve some kind of scoring bonus in order to reward them adequately. Something like the BV of the combination, plus an extra X% of that BV for being in combination.

 

[solani]

I think we can all agree that Yuzur Hanyu's 4T is several levels of magnitude harder than Gracie Gold's 3Lo. Mao and Yuna set the standard in Vancouver 5 years ago. Now it is not just the top few skaters attempting these elements. Every upcoming junior, last year's top seniors, and even Ashley Wagner are doing triple-triples. So to say we should be satisfied with 3T+3T among the ladies, because the men are doing a 3Lz+3T is ridiculous and borderline sexist really. We should be expecting women athletes to attain the most difficult combinations possible, based on precedent and current competition. That is the nature of sport.

Wow. Borderline sexist. Yeah, that's me! My point is that the top two man are not pushing themselves as hard as the certainly could because of CoP. Or do you think that Hanyu and Fernandez are not capable of doing 4T-3T or 4S-3T?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Out of simple curiosity. Is there a man who is more technically ambitious that Hanyu?

 

[Interspectator]

Out of simple curiosity. Is there a man who is more technically ambitious that Hanyu?

That's the thing. I think only Boyang Jin has a more ambitious technical layout. And good for him! I hope he can complete it as a senior.

I do think that a 4-3 should get some kind of bonus because it is more difficult, but that's not the only way to push technique in jumps.

Patrick, Vornov, Kovtun did a good 4-3 (or great, in Patrick's case) however:
Patrick had only 1 3A in his program
Vornov attempted 'only' 1 quad in each program
Kovtun does not jump the loop or the flip

Each skater chooses their strategy according to their strengths.

At this point Yuzu and Javi attempt the most difficult 'set' of jumps in the LP.

Kovtun has the most difficult set in the SP

 

[matmuh]

not attempting harder combo doesnt mean they arent pushing themselves, yeah yuzuru doesnt attempt it but he all is combinations at 2nd half of the program and 2 of them includes 3A, he keeps trying to up his tech every year and he is planning to add 3rd quad to his program which also will be at 2nd half as combo, i dont know what more he can do honestly (i am sure he will find a way though), and i think he is perfectly capable of 4T3T

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I wish guys would do a 2a-4t-2t. I love the looks of a 2a-4t

 

[Interspectator]

I wish guys would do a 2a-4t-2t. I love the looks of a 2a-4t

Is there a video somewhere? I'd love to see that!

 

[Mathman]

Not attempting harder combo doesnt mean they arent pushing themselves,... y

But why can't we say the same about the ladies. Is Liza Tuktamysheva "not pushing herself" because she did 3A, 3Lz, and 3T+3T (in the second half) in the short program?