Who is the greatest COMPETITOR?

[Mathman]

I think the "foot/toe" thing was a lie.

What a silly post.

 

[Mathman]

I guess I learn something all the time, I was under the belief by commentators, that the only 6.0 the Ambassador received was the cheesfest in 05 for her LP.? Thanks for the correction.:agree:

From Michelle's official biography on the USFS site:

"In her career she has received 57 perfect 6.0 marks in major competitions, the most of any U.S. skater in history, and any singles skater ever ... She has been awarded at least one 6.0 in each of her last five U.S. Championships, a U.S. record ... Her winning long and short performances at the 1998 U.S. Championships, where she received 15 perfect 6.0 marks (out of a possible 18) for artistry over the course of the event, is the most by any skater in the history of U.S. Figure Skating ."

 

[SeaniBu]

I reviewed the video and listened more carefully to what was said after that post. It is cut, but It must have been more a comment of "6.0 across the board," or something like that - and likely directly a comment about that particular event. I wasn't really thinking about it when responded, more that I like learning from this sight. But I am glad you both corrected my memory, for if anyone asked me, which they never have about scores, I would have said the only 6.0s I know she received were in the the Marshall's Nats at the end of 05-06. After listening, it would appear her or Dick did not think she had a 6.0 pro for Bolero LP either, but I think she did get 3 or more for sure.

I really only started paying attention to scores opposed to placements one I started here, and the onset of the CoP.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It really is time to quit this rehash of events, imol It leads to no conclusion and we must remember that Henie was the greatest of all competitors in whatever era.

Witt, Kwan, Stoyko, Button were all very good in their eras but not the greatest/ JMO.

 

[Mathman]

After listening, it would appear her or Dick did not think she had a 6.0 pro for Bolero LP either, but I think she did get 3 or more for sure.

Yeah, 2005 Nationals was the very last chance the U.S. judges had to give out 6.0s. They must have had quite a few left in their basket that they wanted to get rid of, so they gave Michelle a going away present. They gave a bunch to Belbin and Agosto, too, IIRC.

 

[SeaniBu]

It really is time to quit this rehash of events, imol It leads to no conclusion and we must remember that Henie was the greatest of all competitors in whatever era..

ITD, for if there was not the strolls down memory lane on occasion, I for one would not be informed of a past I am interested in, and it fills in the blanks. I also feel the comparisons of who was up against what and when have shed some light on this for me anyway. Katarina has gained a lot of respect from me on this topic that I never knew. And what kind of fan would I be if I didn't just learn that info about MK? Now I can make a statement if asked or brought up rather then saying "I think" or "well not really sure but I know this one tinny little bit of..."

I am not trying to be rude at all, but I have a harder time with posters saying that another poster shouldn't be ...... when it has nothing to do with bashing. That to me is more someone criticizing someone for talking about something that they are interested in. If someone is interested, why is it bad? If another is not, nothing wrong with that either. But saying they shouldn't ______ is like telling them they are doing something wrong. If I loose interest or don't think it is "worthy", I stop visiting that thread.

Like I have said, I am happy to learn about FS, be it the past, present or the future, you don't even want to know what I though Sonja's popularity was from before I learned about her from here.

Yeah, 2005 Nationals was the very last chance the U.S. judges had to give out 6.0s. They must have had quite a few left in their basket that they wanted to get rid of, so they gave Michelle a going away present. They gave a bunch to Belbin and Agosto, too, IIRC.

Now I wish that I had always been recording the scores.


"Q"
Then, no one ever received 6.0 across the board in US history?

 

[gio]

Katarina Witt did not have the longevity of Michelle Kwan-not even close. No one called her a flash in the pan, but she was in and out and she didn't have the medal count Michelle had.

She wasn't in and out!!! She won practically everything between 1984 and 1988, except 1987 Worlds. She was competing from 1980 to 1988, that's 9 seasons! She didn't have any meltdown, as far as I remember! She was the first woman to do a triple flip. 2 Oly GMs, 4 Worlds GMs and 6 euros GMs are a great achievement!!! Aren't those medals enough for you? I think if you count the medals of Michelle and Katarina, they are pretty the same number for both.
I agree that Michelle is the best, but Katarina is a close second.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Like I have said, I am happy to learn about FS, be it the past, present or the future, you don't even want to know what I though Sonja's popularity was from before I learned about her from here.

Apparently, from what I heard from people in her shows was she was a tyrant.
No one could be blonder than she was, and she preferred to be the only blonde. That last sentence, I do not know if it is true.

Joe

 

[Shmuzzy]

What does everybody think of Lysacek as a competitor? Although obviously not the "greatest" competitor ever (Elvis gets my vote), at the Olympics, after pondering withdrawing he skated a PB in the free while fighting the effects of stomach flu. Then at Worlds he had a bacterial infection (where he was coughing up blood) but nailed his first ever quad and finished with the bronze. Even though it seems he gets sick a lot, it doesn't seem to stop him from laying it down. Gotta hand it to him!

 

[Mathman]

If we are going back to Sonia Henie, we could also mention some of the great men skaters of the past. What about Ulich Salchow, who won ten World Championships? Or Gillis Grafstrom who won three Olympic gold medals and one silver.

BTW, if you want to get all the dirt on Sonia Henie, there is plenty floating around. She was criticized for being cozy with Hitler, and roundly comdemned by the Norwegian resistence movement for not supporting their cause in World War II (when Henie was living in the U.S.) She had a reputation as a ruthless business women and is accused of swindling her own brother out of all of his land holdings in the U.S.

So, yes, I would have to say she was a competitor.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Of the four that I chose, one from each discipline, I would say that Rodnina was the greatest competitor:

Three Olympic gold medals, with two partners: 1972, 1976, 1980
Eleven* European Championshiops, with two partners: 1969-1978, 1980
Ten* World Championships, with two partners: 1969-1978 (did not compete in 1980)

*In the 1979 season, she had a baby, and the following year came back to win the European and Olympic titles.

Plus, her partner change was reluctant, as Ulanov left her to skate with Ludmila Smirnova; they came in second to Rodnina Zaitsev in 1974 and 1975.

 

[Mathman]

"Q" Then, no one ever received 6.0 across the board in US history?

I think the only time was Belbin and Agosto, with perfect 6.0's across the baord in presentation for their free dance at 2005 U.S. Nationals.

There may have been some others in natioal competitions in other countries.

I think Yagudin holds the record for the most 6.0s in international competition.

 

[SeaniBu]

, we could also mention some of the great men skaters of the past. What about Ulich Salchow, who won ten World Championships? Or Gillis Grafstrom who won three Olympic gold medals and one silver.

Yah, I don't hear to much about them, someone did mention Uncle Dick though.

BTW, if you want to get all the dirt on Sonia Henie, :

Dee had a documentary she shared a while ago and it was very interesting. I guess I should just out n out say it - even though it is going to show my past ignorance - of who I first "thought" Sonia was. I didn't know she was more then a Ice Skating "movie star." Yes I know that is pathedic but that is all I knew of her or really anyone from the "pre 60s." I didn't even care to much about where Dick came from but acutely saw his info at the museum in Colorado Springs - so that was more an accident I knew and it didn't stick in my mind on purpose.

Like Kat W, what did I know in the 90s??? or even up until MK 98. As a matter of fact, most of my first "gaining knowlege by reading info" about FS came from a friend saying "You like figure skaters Sean, check this out!" As he handed me the Katarina issue of Playboy. Those might have been the first FS "stats" I ever read, and remember being bummed.....never mind. Pathetic I know, but it wasn't mine and it got me "thinking as much as I was looking." And if I wasn't recently talking about an MK performance and how FS is getting more interesting to me he may have never thought to show me either. My views have changed a lot on FS since 98, but my personality has too. Anyone who says a leopard can't change his spots needs to realize comparing leopards to people is just as ridiculous then thinking people don't change.

Unless you are talking about spelling, and well I will suck at spelling until I die I am sure.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If we are going back to Sonia Henie, we could also mention some of the great men skaters of the past. What about Ulich Salchow, who won ten World Championships? Or Gillis Grafstrom who won three Olympic gold medals and one silver.

BTW, if you want to get all the dirt on Sonia Henie, there is plenty floating around. She was criticized for being cozy with Hitler, and roundly comdemned by the Norwegian resistence movement for not supporting their cause in World War II (when Henie was living in the U.S.) She had a reputation as a ruthless business women and is accused of swindling her own brother out of all of his land holdings in the U.S.

So, yes, I would have to say she was a competitor.

We've been through all of this before. Apparently all the athletes saluted Hitler because that's what Europeans did with Heads-of-State in all previous Olympics. How famous she was, she was hyped in many photos during that Olys. It was 1936 and not everyone was aware of the Nazi Party, unfortunately.

As for Norway, Milton Berle said Sonia loved Sonia only. She did nothing for the resistance. Much too busy making money in LA. Depending what one reads and believes is really what makes one happy. Triple Olympic Champ or Monster?

BTW. She was not my favorite skater. Much preferred Belita. Sonia was special not in politics but in figure skating.

Joe

 

[slutskayafan21]

One of the most important characteristics of a great comeptitor is the longevity of their skating competitively at the very top of the field. Besides Henie (who had no real competition), the only one that has done that is Kwan. Witt came in and out. Lipinski was here and then gone. Same with Sara.

Witt came in and out? Completely false. Witt was at or near the top for a 7 year period, not as long as Kwan who was for a 10 year period or so, but not even close to being in and out, Witt herself showed great longevity. Witt won a World silver in 82, then Olympic Gold in 84, World gold in 84, World gold in 85, World silver in 86, World gold in 87, Olympic Gold in 88, and World gold in 88. Witt won every long program at Worlds or Olympics from 84-88, she lost 86 Worlds due to a mistake in the short program. Witt also won every short program from 84-88 at Olympics or Worlds, except for being 2nd behind Debi Thomas in the 88 Worlds short program. Even at the 83 Worlds Witt was 1st in the short, 2nd in the long, and finished 4th only due to compulsory figures results. Witt was 2nd at the 82 Europeans, winning both short and long programs, then won every European title from 83-88. Witt's longevity was excellent and her sheer level of dominance over a long period of time was superior to any women in the last 30 years including Kwan.

As for nobody matching Kwan's longevity I would say Slutskaya matches it, but she is just a notch down from Kwan in total accomplishments and consistency, but just in longevity she is atleast Kwan's match.

Kwan's longevity in competitive women's skating at the very top is almost unmatched. Henie had no real competition-they were walkovers.

I agree on Henie not being a good comparision. I am not sure how you judge her in history considering when she skated.

She tried again in her second Olympics and was even shooting for a third. Skaters don't get much more competitive than that.

Slutskaya also tried a 3rd time for that elusive Olympic Gold.

 

[temujin]

The greatest competitor I've seen in the past 25 years of competitive skating is Katarina Witt. Technically she was an excellent skater but so were Cadavy, Manley, Thomas, Trenary, Sumners, Chin, etc... But it was Katarina Witt's competitive spirit and ability to come through at the big competitions (particularly the Worlds and Olympics) which most distinguished her from the other competitors.

Champion skaters prior to 1982 like Rodnina, Henie, Button must have been tremendous competitors too but unfortunately I never saw them compete. I've seen some archival footage of these skaters, but for me that is not the same as watching the competition so it's hard for me to rate these skaters as competitors relative to the skaters I've seen in competition.

Michelle Kwan is one of the great skaters of all time and a terrific competitor too, but in my opinion an athlete cannot be the greatest competitor if they don't win the biggest, most pressure packed competition in their (individual not team) sport.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Regardless of what you believe about her (and I've heard some nasty things from good sources) and if you can focus on the skating she did, she was truly One In A Million

Other than inventing a few tricks the old guard did not compare with Sonia who brought ice skating indoors (hockey fans should rejoice), put on lavish show skating numbers in a travelling ice extravaganza, and her movies sold millions at that time. Skating movies do not sell that much now.

One other old guard skater I enjoy reading about is the Canadian/American Jackson Haines. He brought music to all these skating tricks and invented the sit spin, which on Rollers they call a jackson.

But if that notorious photo keeps you from seeing the skater, so be it.

Joe

 

[R.D.]

Michelle Kwan is one of the great skaters of all time and a terrific competitor too, but in my opinion an athlete cannot be the greatest competitor if they don't win the biggest, most pressure packed competition in their (individual not team) sport.

My thoughts exactly. If some posters see that thought as being "negative" towards her, so be it.

 

[attyfan]

... .

I think Yagudin holds the record for the most 6.0s in international competition.

Oddly enough, the singles skater with the most 6.0s in international competition is Michelle Kwan (with 50 -- and this is over and above her 40+ at US Nats). Yags, however, is the only singles skater to receive more than one 6.0 at Olys.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The problem with this thread and those of the same ilk, is the use of the superlative

I think a superlative adjective or adverb and in particular 'greatest should be banned from all forum. :yes:

Joe