Who should have won that gold! Top ten robberies

[seniorita]

I can live with this result; or Plushenko gold, Takahashi silver, and Lysacek bronze; or even Plushenko gold, Lysacek silver, and Takahashi bronze. Just can't stand a quadless Olympic gold medalist. It's not personal to Lysacek.

As time has passed by I m now thinking I could live even with KVDP gold and I would have celebrated it all night

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

2011 Grand Prix final- Daisuke Takahashi deserved the gold over Patrick Chan.

2011 Worlds- same as above.

Do you mean 2012 Worlds, or do you genuinely think that Chan with three quads and only one step out on a triple axel should lose to a no-quad, singled a jump, plus a fall Takahashi? If the former, I agree. If the latter... I'm curious how you would score the programs.

 

[deedee1]

I can live with this result; or Plushenko gold, Takahashi silver, and Lysacek bronze; or even Plushenko gold, Lysacek silver, and Takahashi bronze. Just can't stand a quadless Olympic gold medalist. It's not personal to Lysacek.

Oh Blue, I did not know you are such a big Daisuke fan!

Okay, Seriously.
Upon a fall on his opening quad which was rightfully downgraded, Takahashi lost his chance for OGM already. But he won the Olympic medal which he so wanted. The color was different, but considering his almost-career-ending injury I can live with that. I DO question that ridiculous downgrade on his 3F-3T in the second half, though. I still believe it was overrotated, NOT underrotated. :scowl:

On the night of Mens free skate, I thought Plushenko outskated Lysacek.
Plushenko clearly outjumped Lysacek, but lost because of GOE or the lack of 2lp/2T as the third jump tacked to one of his combos. Lysacek appreared to me a bit conservative in his Free, and the judges DID reflect so in his rather 'beatable' score for the sake of other skaters. Such a shame nobody rised to the occasion when it was possible. :disapp:

 

[Serious Business]

On the one hand, I'm tempted to say that Lysacek vs. Plushenko wasn't a robbery because Lysacek won fairly and squarely under the rules at the time. But on the other hand, it's pretty clear that the ISU itself immediately recognized those rules were out of whack, as they changed the value for jumps. The robbery here is that the ISU made a fundamental mistake when they initially calibrated the jump values: they based it on the 2002 Olympics men's results. They wanted to concoct a system that would retain the SLC podium. The problem was that the bronze medalist, Tim Goebel, landed a ridiculous amount of quads, including one after the halfway mark. In order to keep him from the gold, they had to lower the value of quads. The error here is obvious: they're tailoring a point system using a competition where athletes planned their elements under an entirely different system. They had many opportunities and seasons to fix this, but they didn't until a rather high profile upset.

But by the same token, hindsight revision doesn't mean Plushenko would've automatically gotten gold if the IJS properly scored quads from the start. In that alternate scenario, skaters would be training the quad a lot harder from the start, and we'd very likely wind up with a whole batch of ambitious quad jumpers at the Olympics, one of which (and it may even be Lysacek) might have beaten Plushenko.

 

[pangtongfan]

Do you mean 2012 Worlds, or do you genuinely think that Chan with three quads and only one step out on a triple axel should lose to a no-quad, singled a jump, plus a fall Takahashi? If the former, I agree. If the latter... I'm curious how you would score the programs.

Sorry I DEFINITELY meant 2012 in both cases. My bad. Chan unquestionably deserved all his 2010-2011 wins except for Skate Canada, but even that wasnt worthwhile coming close to putting on my top 10 per discipline list.

 

[pangtongfan]

On the one hand, I'm tempted to say that Lysacek vs. Plushenko wasn't a robbery because Lysacek won fairly and squarely under the rules at the time. But on the other hand, it's pretty clear that the ISU itself immediately recognized those rules were out of whack, as they changed the value for jumps. The robbery here is that the ISU made a fundamental mistake when they initially calibrated the jump values: they based it on the 2002 Olympics men's results. They wanted to concoct a system that would retain the SLC podium. The problem was that the bronze medalist, Tim Goebel, landed a ridiculous amount of quads, including one after the halfway mark. In order to keep him from the gold, they had to lower the value of quads. The error here is obvious: they're tailoring a point system using a competition where athletes planned their elements under an entirely different system. They had many opportunities and seasons to fix this, but they didn't until a rather high profile upset.

But by the same token, hindsight revision doesn't mean Plushenko would've automatically gotten gold if the IJS properly scored quads from the start. In that alternate scenario, skaters would be training the quad a lot harder from the start, and we'd very likely wind up with a whole batch of ambitious quad jumpers at the Olympics, one of which (and it may even be Lysacek) might have beaten Plushenko.

Nobody really deserved gold. Everyone was mediocre at best at this event. Evan was pretty much his best which is still mediocre. Plushenko was subpar that night in every sense. Takahashi had moments of brilliance but a fall and a couple other problems. They should have just given everyone a bronze medal and left it at that.

 

[Olympia]

Oh Blue, I did not know you are such a big Daisuke fan!

Okay, Seriously.
Upon a fall on his opening quad which was rightfully downgraded, Takahashi lost his chance for OGM already. But he won the Olympic medal which he so wanted. The color was different, but considering his almost-career-ending injury I can live with that. I DO question that ridiculous downgrade on his 3F-3T in the second half, though. I still believe it was overrotated, NOT underrotated. :scowl:

On the night of Mens free skate, I thought Plushenko outskated Lysacek.
Plushenko clearly outjumped Lysacek, but lost because of GOE or the lack of 2lp/2T as the third jump tacked to one of his combos. Lysacek appreared to me a bit conservative in his Free, and the judges DID reflect so in his rather 'beatable' score for the sake of other skaters. Such a shame nobody rised to the occasion when it was possible. :disapp:

I've always been convinced that if Takahashi had won that gold, almost no one would have complained. But like you, I'm grateful that Dai returned from what in almost anyone else would have been a career-ending injury. Any medal was a well-deserved miracle! And he's still skating, and still improving. It's a gift just to have him around.

 

[pangtongfan]

To me the real sign if a decision was wrong is if anyone would have complained had it been reversed, including those who defend it and agree with it as it is.

For instance:

Kwan vs Chen 96 Worlds- While there are many who disagree with Kwan beating Chen there, there are many who either agree with it or defend the result too. However would there be anyone complaining had Chen won, including even those who agreed with Kwan's win, the way some complain about the result of Kwan beating Chen here. I dont think so.

Takahashi vs Plushenko vs Lysacek 2010 Olympics- While not everyone agrees Takahashi should have won, I think if he had won nobody would have complained, even though who dont think he should have won would have found it an acceptable result. Needless to say many still dispute Lysacek's win, and many would have disputed Plushenko's with his performance that night too, although I have a feeling less than Lysacek's.

Shen & Zhou vs Pang & Tong 2010 Olympics- While in this case almost everyone accepts the result due to the lovefest of Shen & Zhou, nobody disputes Pang & Tong winning the LP by several points as they did, and had their SP been scored higher (as most everyone acknowledges it should have) and they won overall, I dont think anyone would have complained. The Shen & Zhou ubers would have been crushed, but they also wouldnt have been able to dispute the result.

Chan vs Takahashi 2012 Worlds or 2012 GP final- Ooops, almost nobody defends the result, so this even goes beyond my stated example. Needless to say nobody, even the most annoying of chan ubers who passionately defend his wins would have been able to seriously complain or dispute his not winning though.

 

[Blades of Passion]

2000 Worlds- Maria should have been 2nd in the long program and thus won the gold medal instead of Michelle Kwan overall.

Nope, Kwan deserved 2nd in the SP. There was no point in her behind behind Irina with such a small mistake when Irina had a lackluster program as usual and was tight on the combination jump. Irina was very much held up throughout her career after the 2000 GPF. She never skated that well ever again (maybe 2005 Cup of Russia) and coasted on that performance for the rest of her career, being touted as both a great performer and amazing jumper, despite many of her performances being quite boring and her 3Lutz-3Loop never actually happening after that one time (until 2005 Worlds when it didn't even matter under CoP because she zayaked).

2001 Worlds- Angela Nikidinov and Maria Butyrskaya both should have been above Michelle Kwan in the short program, and thus Irina won the gold medal instead of Michelle Kwan overall. Hughes deserved about 8th in the short program, thus having no chance of a medal.

Absolutely not. Kwan was the best in that SP. A masterpiece program, far better than Slutskaya's. Regardless of arguments that Slutskaya may have deserved to win that SP on the technical mark (I don't think so), there is absolutely no way Kwan should have been lower than 2nd.

 

[deedee1]

I've always been convinced that if Takahashi had won that gold, almost no one would have complained.

I know...Only if he would not have fallen on that quad, none of skating boards would have crashed down so badly.

I know ice is slippery and I donot expect everyone to skate lights out (one or two often falter). Especially Ladies event where we can sort of expect a big shake-off...But as far as Mens discipline is concerned (for me at least), I always believe Olympic medals should go to those who have lead Mens competitions and inspired younger skaters for the last four years leading up to its Olympic quadrennium.

For that matter, I was rooting for Joubert and SOOOO wanted him (with three quads in two programs) to be the Olympic champion.
I wanted other two medals to go to the two BEST skaters ON THAT NIGHT; out of either Takahashi (without any falls, and with two dazzling dances), Lambiel (with 3A or not I don't care, but two brilliant performances), Buttle (if continued competing, and with three solid 3As in two great programs), Weir (with a quad, and two beautiful yet more CoP-friendly programs) or Lysacek (with two decent progrmas skating to meh music but most CoP-adapted, and should be fiercely skated).
While I appreciated and respected King Plushenko a lot, I was disappointed no one but only Lysacek actually did outskate him. I did a happy dance for Dai's bronze medal of course, but I was more heartbroken for the outcome, because all of skaters I named the above have improved so much after such a bittersweet defeat against the King at Torino four years beore. And just because they shone like jewels on ice for me, and loved all of them for different reasons.

P.S. there were also Verner, Oda, Chan, Abbott, Kozuka...who could have potentially finished on the Olympic podium in Vancouver with two clean skates in case the above skaters faltered. Who would have predicted Mens Free would have started with such a gorgeous skater as Verner first to skate ...

 

[blue_idealist]

As much as I love Daisuke Takahashi, I'd rather have a quadless Olympic Champion than one who crashed to the ice on a quad flip. To me, there's nothing worse than an OGM winner with a fall in the program. I wonder when the last time was that an Olympic champion had a fall in the LP. None really come to mind in recent years, although I'm thinking it was probably in the pairs' event. Refresh my memory.. did M/D fall once in '92?

 

[burntBREAD]

As much as I love Daisuke Takahashi, I'd rather have a quadless Olympic Champion than one who crashed to the ice on a quad flip. To me, there's nothing worse than an OGM winner with a fall in the program. I wonder when the last time was that an Olympic champion had a fall in the LP. None really come to mind in recent years, although I'm thinking it was probably in the pairs' event. Refresh my memory.. did M/D fall once in '92?

Yamaguchi fell in 1992.

 

[plushyfan]

If you missed this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruple_jump_controversy

and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbbfflDE4PE

 

[mary01]

2008 Worlds- Kim deserved to win the LP by a wider margin, and the gold ahead of Asada, while silver medalist Kostner should have been 5th.

deffinitly NOT, Mao should have won the sp and fs with a big margin, and the gold was fully deserved Asada's after a spectacular short and long program! The only one that got robbed that night was Yukari who should have gotten the silver instead of kostner, kostner shouldn't have been on the podium at all that night!

2011 Worlds Men: Daisuke really deserved the gold over patrick chan (i was really shocked when he didn't win)
2007 Worlds Women: Mao deserved the gold over Miki (miki was freaken lucky to get that gold that night she looked so out of control and her jumps where scratchy and unsure like she could have fallen at any moment)

 

[Skater Boy]

As much as I love Daisuke Takahashi, I'd rather have a quadless Olympic Champion than one who crashed to the ice on a quad flip. To me, there's nothing worse than an OGM winner with a fall in the program. I wonder when the last time was that an Olympic champion had a fall in the LP. None really come to mind in recent years, although I'm thinking it was probably in the pairs' event. Refresh my memory.. did M/D fall once in '92?

I think Yamaguchi fell on a triple loop in her program to OGM, years ago Robin Cousins fell in footwork and won gold,

 

[ILoveFigures]

deffinitly NOT, Mao should have won the sp and fs with a big margin, and the gold was fully deserved Asada's after a spectacular short and long program! The only one that got robbed that night was Yukari who should have gotten the silver instead of kostner, kostner shouldn't have been on the podium at all that night!

2011 Worlds Men: Daisuke really deserved the gold over patrick chan (i was really shocked when he didn't win)
2007 Worlds Women: Mao deserved the gold over Miki (miki was freaken lucky to get that gold that night she looked so out of control and her jumps where scratchy and unsure like she could have fallen at any moment)

Mao most definantly should NOT have won the FS with a large margin. She barely did nothing for 30 seconds after the fall on the 3A. But, I still think she deserved her win overall, with Yuna 2nd and Yukari 3rd (sorry, as much as I liked Yukari, she did have her flaws)

2011 Worlds was hand downs Patrick's deserved win. No one could beat him there. When it comes to 2012, another story, but I still think he deserved to win. Daisuke had his flaws too, and that's reflected with him coming 3rd in the free, AFTER Patrick and Yuzuru.

You seem to forget that competitions are divided into two, a short AND a free program. Mao blew the short at 2007 worlds with a massive mistake doing only 3F+1Lo. She skated a brillant free skate, but overall Miki edged her out. If not for the short, Mao would have won, hands down.

 

[Olympia]

I don't know if this applied at that particular event, but I think Yukari was frequently marked down for her pronounced leg wrap. She was such a wonderful skater--with a triple axel, even!--except for that one extreme flaw. I was always sad and a bit angry that some coach had allowed such a talented skater to develop that habit. Of the major skaters, I can only remember one other who had such a leg wrap, Claudia Kristofics-Binder of then West Germany, who I think once won a world bronze in her home city of Dortmund. Midori had a bit of a wrap on some jumps, but not as obvious a wrap as poor Yukari.

The ironic thing is that a leg wrap is no help at all to a triple axel. Axel jumps aren't done with a wrap. So Yukari didn't have need of the wrap in order to perfect her history-making axel. I think she's still one of just five ladies who has done this jump competitively. Whoops--six. Forgot our Kimmie Meissner.

 

[ciocio]

Nobody really deserved gold. Everyone was mediocre at best at this event. Evan was pretty much his best which is still mediocre. Plushenko was subpar that night in every sense. Takahashi had moments of brilliance but a fall and a couple other problems. They should have just given everyone a bronze medal and left it at that.

True! Plushenko was awful, he was worse than this year at Euros where he basically skated on one foot, or half foot.

 

[mcc]

Mao most definantly should NOT have won the FS with a large margin. She barely did nothing for 30 seconds after the fall on the 3A. But, I still think she deserved her win overall, with Yuna 2nd and Yukari 3rd (sorry, as much as I liked Yukari, she did have her flaws)

Doing nothing for 30 sec. out of 4 min. deserves to win? Very interesting. If Asada were not Japanese and only hope of JSF, she would have been out of podium or bronze at most.

 

[100yen]

Doing nothing for 30 sec. out of 4 min. deserves to win? Very interesting. If Asada were not Japanese and only hope of JSF, she would have been out of podium or bronze at most.

The whole 30 second thing is an exaggeration, mcc. :yes: Within 11 seconds of her actually getting back onto her feet she goes back into the choreography and the swing of the program.

A fall in the middle of the rink requires a little more time to get back into the swing than a fall at a corner. I remember doing a toe loop near the center, falling, and requiring time to build up speed and set up for another jump at one of the far corners.
As an observer, it's important to look at the logistics of a skating routine too; A skater cannot magically be in perfect position for a difficult jump combo. It's quite amazing that she could carry through the rest of the jumps confidently...I remember being very inspired afterward. I don't think any politicking on part of the JSF is to blame here. And if I remember Yukari was right up there with Mao as far as expectations go.