Who should have won that gold! Top ten robberies | Page 10 | Golden Skate

Who should have won that gold! Top ten robberies

On the one hand, I'm tempted to say that Lysacek vs. Plushenko wasn't a robbery because Lysacek won fairly and squarely under the rules at the time. But on the other hand, it's pretty clear that the ISU itself immediately recognized those rules were out of whack, as they changed the value for jumps. The robbery here is that the ISU made a fundamental mistake when they initially calibrated the jump values: they based it on the 2002 Olympics men's results. They wanted to concoct a system that would retain the SLC podium. The problem was that the bronze medalist, Tim Goebel, landed a ridiculous amount of quads, including one after the halfway mark. In order to keep him from the gold, they had to lower the value of quads. The error here is obvious: they're tailoring a point system using a competition where athletes planned their elements under an entirely different system. They had many opportunities and seasons to fix this, but they didn't until a rather high profile upset.

But by the same token, hindsight revision doesn't mean Plushenko would've automatically gotten gold if the IJS properly scored quads from the start. In that alternate scenario, skaters would be training the quad a lot harder from the start, and we'd very likely wind up with a whole batch of ambitious quad jumpers at the Olympics, one of which (and it may even be Lysacek) might have beaten Plushenko.

Did ISU lower the quad jump value after 2002 Olympics because of Goebel? I don't think so. ISU trimmed down the quad value after 2006-07 season because Brian Joubert won every single competition he entered that season and got his first World Championship title. It seemed that he had no competition and unstoppable at that time. This quad value cut down effort has created the infamous quadless champion era from 2008 Worlds to 2010 Olympics.

In a sense, Plushenko was robbed in 2010 Olympics. Before 2010 Olympics, no one has ever finished SP over 90 or even close to 90 without a quad. But it had happened first time ever in 2010 Olympics. So Lysacek was over scored in SP which had given him the overall win on the LP day.
 
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Absolutely not. Kwan was the best in that SP. A masterpiece program, far better than Slutskaya's. Regardless of arguments that Slutskaya may have deserved to win that SP on the technical mark (I don't think so), there is absolutely no way Kwan should have been lower than 2nd.

Kwan's triple lutz combination was two footed I thought. CTV thought so too and a couple of the judges obviously did as a few 5.4s and 5.5s on the first mark suggested, as the program and other elements were otherwise too strong to be that low without a mistake. However most of the judges missed it.
 
Did ISU lower the quad jump value after 2002 Olympics because of Goebel? I don't think so. ISU trimmed down the quad value after 2006-07 season because Brian Joubert won every single competition he entered that season and got his first World Championship title. It seemed that he had no competition and unstoppable at that time. This quad value cut down effort has created the infamous quadless champion era from 2008 Worlds to 2010 Olympics.

There was no COP for the 2002 Olympics. What happened was, when the COP was conceived after the SLC Olympics, the jump values for singles were calibrated based on the men's results at the 2002 games. Thus, quads had a lower value than they should have had from the very inception of the system. I don't remember the ISU lowering the value of quads further in 06/07, but I think they did increase the negative GOE scale of values which made mistakes far more costly on quads.

In a sense, Plushenko was robbed in 2010 Olympics. Before 2010 Olympics, no one has ever finished SP over 90 or even close to 90 without a quad. But it had happened first time ever in 2010 Olympics. So Lysacek was over scored in SP which had given him the overall win on that day.

I wouldn't cite that as evidence of robbery. It was typical score inflation at a big event. All skaters got a boost. Just as most skaters mysteriously get higher marks at Worlds compared to previous international events, even when their previous skates were superior. There is no bigger stage than the Olympics. Judges somehow feel the need to make the scores appear correspondingly large regardless of the performances.
 
There was no COP for the 2002 Olympics. What happened was, when the COP was conceived after the SLC Olympics, the jump values for singles were calibrated based on the men's results at the 2002 games. Thus, quads had a lower value than they should have had from the very inception of the system. I don't remember the ISU lowering the value of quads further in 06/07, but I think they did increase the negative GOE scale of values which made mistakes far more costly on quads.

You are right. CoP started from 2003 season.:) ISU did lowered quad value after 2007 worlds, not during 06/07 season, particularly aiming Brian Joubert's win.
 
In a sense, Plushenko was robbed in 2010 Olympics. Before 2010 Olympics, no one has ever finished SP over 90 or even close to 90 without a quad. But it had happened first time ever in 2010 Olympics. So Lysacek was over scored in SP which had given him the overall win on the LP day.

Takahashi had no quad in sp and he got over 90 (skated earlier than Lysacek). In my opinion the judges gave both him and Lysacek the chance to medal. Unfortunately Takahashi blew his chance because of the fall and other mistakes. Still the judges should have given him silver, Plushenko definetely was overscored in PCS both in sp and fs.
 
Takahashi had no quad in sp and he got over 90 (skated earlier than Lysacek). In my opinion the judges gave both him and Lysacek the chance to medal. Unfortunately Takahashi blew his chance because of the fall and other mistakes. Still the judges should have given him silver, Plushenko definetely was overscored in PCS both in sp and fs.

Both Takahashi and Lysacek were over scored in SP. But Lysacek has even less reason to get a score like that. Plushenko was brilliant in SP and deserved the score he got. Yeah, I agree that the judges should have given Takahashi a silver and Lysacek a bronze.;):biggrin:
 
Both Takahashi and Lysacek were over scored in SP. But Lysacek has even less reason to get a score like that. Plushenko was brilliant in SP and deserved the score he got. Yeah, I agree that the judges should have given Takahashi a silver and Lysacek a bronze.;):biggrin:

THX, I totally agree with you.:thumbsup:
 
Did ISU lower the quad jump value after 2002 Olympics because of Goebel? I don't think so. ISU trimmed down the quad value after 2006-07 season because Brian Joubert won every single competition he entered that season and got his first World Championship title. It seemed that he had no competition and unstoppable at that time. This quad value cut down effort has created the infamous quadless champion era from 2008 Worlds to 2010 Olympics.

LOL, none of this is correct. Brian Joubert had plenty of competition and the quad value remained the same from the beginning of CoP and up through 2008. ISU actually INCREASED the value of the Quad (and Triple Axel) after 2008 Worlds, but not by enough.
 
Did ISU lower the quad jump value after 2002 Olympics because of Goebel? I don't think so. ISU trimmed down the quad value after 2006-07 season because Brian Joubert won every single competition he entered that season and got his first World Championship title. It seemed that he had no competition and unstoppable at that time. This quad value cut down effort has created the infamous quadless champion era from 2008 Worlds to 2010 Olympics.

In a sense, Plushenko was robbed in 2010 Olympics. Before 2010 Olympics, no one has ever finished SP over 90 or even close to 90 without a quad. But it had happened first time ever in 2010 Olympics. So Lysacek was over scored in SP which had given him the overall win on the LP day.
Takahashi at 2008 4CC and Chan at 2009 4CC came pretty close.

LOL, none of this is correct. Brian Joubert had plenty of competition and the quad value remained the same from the beginning of CoP and up through 2008. ISU actually INCREASED the value of the Quad (and Triple Axel) after 2008 Worlds, but not by enough.
This is true, though Joubert was considered pretty dominant when he was having his undefeated season (since Chan finished 2nd at the WTT, it remains the last undefeated season in singles, BTW ;)). But Joubert's problem wasn't that the quad was reduced in value so much as the crackdown on flip and lutz technique, the higher negative GOEs compared to positive GOEs on quads (+1 vs. -1.6 per unit, so mistakes were more harshly penalized than they are now in 2009 and I think in the Olympic season), and people learning how to play the system better; Buttle's win was something of a seminal performance in that respect. And probably an even bigger problem for Joubert was that he just could not stay healthy. Since the beginning of 2007, he has twice spiked his blade into his foot, both times requiring surgery; has suffered from illness beyond the usual colds and flus - remember he only has one kidney, and I don't know if/how it affects him; and hurt his back more than once and his knee (elected to forego surgery after the 2011 season because it would have likely ended his career). He has not been healthy for a full season in all that time, missing or withdrawing from events every year, which he never did early in his career. And Joubert has said many times that if he's not feeling confident physically and technically, he has a tough time mentally.
 
Did ISU lower the quad jump value after 2002 Olympics because of Goebel? I don't think so. ISU trimmed down the quad value after 2006-07 season because Brian Joubert won every single competition he entered that season and got his first World Championship title. It seemed that he had no competition and unstoppable at that time. This quad value cut down effort has created the infamous quadless champion era from 2008 Worlds to 2010 Olympics.

In a sense, Plushenko was robbed in 2010 Olympics. Before 2010 Olympics, no one has ever finished SP over 90 or even close to 90 without a quad. But it had happened first time ever in 2010 Olympics. So Lysacek was over scored in SP which had given him the overall win on the LP day.

from Wikipedia:

Short Program Score Controversy

Plushenko's short program drew much praise from the International press which hailed him as the "King" of figure skating who had returned.[16][17]

It was the score for his short program that most Russian analysts say ultimately deprived him of the highest medal.

Going into the free skate, less than a point separated Plushenko, Lysacek and Daisuke Takahashi of Japan. Plushenko was the only one of the three to land a quad in combination with a triple toe loop. "I did a great short program but didn't get the marks I deserved. When I asked why, they told me I was skating early and they had to retain top marks for the last group," said Plushenko.[18]

The scant difference in the scores, a virtual tie, was slammed in the Russian media as dubious judging.

“They ‘buried’ Zhenya (diminutive for Evgeni) before anything could be done. He should have won the short program with a 4 to 5 point lead, in my opinion. A short program is a technical one. And a 4+3 combination changes everything here because it shows that you’re capable of doing more than others," said famous Russian coach Tatiana Tarasova.[19]

Plushenko thought bias was clearly demonstrated in the scoring and expressed dismay at the Russian sports officials: “After the short program, three judges placed me 21st and 22nd for skating skills. These people came to the conclusion that I cannot skate at all. Given the situation, it’s hard for me to understand where were our judges and the administration of our Skating Federation? Why couldn’t a protest be filed following the short program? This [kind of judging] should have been prevented at once, because I don’t believe my skating is of such a low level.[20]...I should have had at least a 5 point lead over my competitors. In the end however, the gap amounted to a mere 0.55 to which our Federation did not react at all.”[21]

The Russian Olympic Committee refused to provide legal support to Plushenko, who was going to protest the results on his own, citing the new ISU rules as barring such actions. “Under the new ISU rules a complaint maybe lodged only if a calculation (mathematical) error occurs. If the judges err in interpreting an element or its level of difficulty, it is considered a “human error” which can not be challenged...No lawyer would take on representing Plushenko's interests as no provision for challenging the judging under these circumstances exists,” a source from the ROC was quoted as saying.[22]

Still, the head of Russia’s Skating Federation, Valentin Piseev, came under heavy criticism at home for not standing up vigorously enough for Plushenko in the face of ‘the judges’ arbitrary scoring.'[23]

“Evgeni’s silver medal is a colossal result. The result achieved by him, his coach, choreographer and his spouse. But if the Federation had stepped in, he would have taken home the gold,” said Irina Rodnina.[24]
 
Plushenko's 2010 Short Program is one of the most bizarre cases I've ever seen of someone skating completely opposite of the music and the choreography was quite bland to begin with. He did the only Quad-Triple of the competition and the best Triple Axel, but the rest of the elements were average. I would have placed Takahashi 1st in the SP. Better footwork sequences, better edge quality throughout the whole performance, and a WAY better program. Which is also why Takahashi deserved 1st in the LP as well, IMO.
 
But if the Federation had stepped in, he would have taken home the gold,” said Irina Rodnina.[24]

In what manner does Rodnina think the Russian Federation could have "stepped in?" Does the ISU change the judges' marks after the fact because displeased national federations "step in?"
 
Plushenko's 2010 Short Program is one of the most bizarre cases I've ever seen of someone skating completely opposite of the music and the choreography was quite bland to begin with. He did the only Quad-Triple of the competition and the best Triple Axel, but the rest of the elements were average. I would have placed Takahashi 1st in the SP. Better footwork sequences, better edge quality throughout the whole performance, and a WAY better program. Which is also why Takahashi deserved 1st in the LP as well, IMO.

You have opinion, Tarasova has opinion, Rodnina has opinion, Carrol has opinion, I have opinion etc. :biggrin: I'm just saying before Vancouver, at Vancouver, and after Vancouver were some really interesting events.:yes:
 
LOL, none of this is correct. Brian Joubert had plenty of competition and the quad value remained the same from the beginning of CoP and up through 2008. ISU actually INCREASED the value of the Quad (and Triple Axel) after 2008 Worlds, but not by enough.

This is true, though Joubert was considered pretty dominant when he was having his undefeated season (since Chan finished 2nd at the WTT, it remains the last undefeated season in singles, BTW ;)). But Joubert's problem wasn't that the quad was reduced in value so much as the crackdown on flip and lutz technique, the higher negative GOEs compared to positive GOEs on quads (+1 vs. -1.6 per unit, so mistakes were more harshly penalized than they are now in 2009 and I think in the Olympic season), and people learning how to play the system better; Buttle's win was something of a seminal performance in that respect. And probably an even bigger problem for Joubert was that he just could not stay healthy. Since the beginning of 2007, he has twice spiked his blade into his foot, both times requiring surgery; has suffered from illness beyond the usual colds and flus - remember he only has one kidney, and I don't know if/how it affects him; and hurt his back more than once and his knee (elected to forego surgery after the 2011 season because it would have likely ended his career). He has not been healthy for a full season in all that time, missing or withdrawing from events every year, which he never did early in his career. And Joubert has said many times that if he's not feeling confident physically and technically, he has a tough time mentally.

My appology! I checked the history, and you both were right. So please disregard for what I've said about the quad values.

Plushenko's 2010 Short Program is one of the most bizarre cases I've ever seen of someone skating completely opposite of the music and the choreography was quite bland to begin with. He did the only Quad-Triple of the competition and the best Triple Axel, but the rest of the elements were average. I would have placed Takahashi 1st in the SP. Better footwork sequences, better edge quality throughout the whole performance, and a WAY better program. Which is also why Takahashi deserved 1st in the LP as well, IMO.

That's purely your own opinion. Plenty of people thought Plushenko was great in SP. I personally think that Plushenko's SP score should have been way higher than Takahashi's and Lysacek's. So if Takahashi and Lysacek scored over 90, Plushenko should have been around 93.
 
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In what manner does Rodnina think the Russian Federation could have "stepped in?" Does the ISU change the judges' marks after the fact because displeased national federations "step in?"

1.Double gold medal
2.Platinum medal
3. Piseev hitting Ciquanta with a fry pan on the head

What you prefer? :)
 
If I get to choose, I'd vote for option #3. It would please the majority of skating fans. :)
 
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If I get to choose, I'd vote for option #3. It would please the majority of skating fane. :)

I like Option 3, as well--but Piseev would've had to wait until after the dance event to do this. Otherwise, the North Americans might have swept the podium. I still can't believe Oksana Grishuk and Maxim Shabalin thought they should've won...
 
Thank you, Seniorita--I needed a good laugh this afternoon, and this was a great one.

You're wittier in your second (or third or fourth? I don't know how many you speak) language than most of us are in the language we grew up speaking.
 
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