Why are the US Ladies not retiring?

[Tanager]

Personally, I would be less interested in ladies skating if it was dominated solely by teenagers who all but disappeared before age 20.

I was thrilled when Ashley won World silver in 2016 and Mirai landed her 3 axel at the Olympics and Kaetlyn won 2018 Worlds. Thrilled too that Carolina is still competitive near the top.

I'm glad that skaters well into their 20s and even 30s can show longevity in this sport and that skaters can have a chance to mature and grow in their skills and presence without having to hang up their skates as soon as the next teenage phenome makes a splash.

 

[Tavi...]

They're not competing this year, so what difference does it make? Unless you think Bradie Tennell and Karen Chen should retire--?

Gracie is competing this year.

 

[princessalica]

Gracie is competing this year.

Let me quote bring it on “ I define the best as competing against the best there is and beating them”. You know I actually think Ashley’s decline mirrored Gracie’s. It didn’t stop Karen from doing wonderfully in her first seniors, but having someone to push you makes you better. Ashley and Gracie pushed each other and Polina. If the next generation wants to beat them, all they have to do is skate better. Ashley, mirai, gracie and whoever we are counting as old inspire the younger ones. If you’ve listened to alysa lui, she isn’t intimidated by any us skater. She’s eying the young Russians. But we aren’t losing anything by the older ones not retiring. Just the younger ones have to up their game.

 

[Tavi...]

Let me quote bring it on “ I define the best as competing against the best there is and beating them”. You know I actually think Ashley’s decline mirrored Gracie’s. It didn’t stop Karen from doing wonderfully in her first seniors, but having someone to push you makes you better. Ashley and Gracie pushed each other and Polina. If the next generation wants to beat them, all they have to do is skate better. Ashley, mirai, gracie and whoever we are counting as old inspire the younger ones. If you’ve listened to alysa lui, she isn’t intimidated by any us skater. She’s eying the young Russians. But we aren’t losing anything by the older ones not retiring. Just the younger ones have to up their game.

I love Gracie and I’m thrilled she’s back. I was just pointing out a factual error.

 

[gkelly]

Welp, like I said. Competition isn't a charity. They're going to have to consistently be better and outperform their competors before they can earn those rewards - emphasis on EARN.

Agreed.

The question was asked why we don't hear people complain that athletes should retire sooner in other sports, and I offered a possible reason why some people might feel that way.


Personally, I think everyone should compete as long as they would like . . . except if someone else is paying for it in expectation of results or other benefits that the person taking their money cannot provide.

 

[princessalica]

I love Gracie and I’m thrilled she’s back. I was just pointing out a factual error.

Sorry. I guess I hit reply. I meant to add to the discussion. I didn’t mean to target you.

 

[karne]

In the U.S., I think the test case is Vincent Zhou. The USFSA has pushed him as hard as they can because, well, he can get good scores on base value alone. His more experienced rivals, such as Adam Rippon, Jason Brown, Max Aaron, etc. -- there is a feeling that we already know what they can do, their strengths and their weaknesses. I can see where the federation would lean toward investing in the future.

But that "test case" showed an error in their judgement, because Zhou's GP season was bad and he had a total meltdown at Worlds and the US had to have their butts saved by the guy who'd not been skating for a month and had gone there on two weeks' training. Additionally, in spite of all the pushing the USFS were doing (89 PCS at Nationals FGS), the international judges weren't fooled and his PCS was pretty low (he got a sub-70 PCS at IdF!). In the mean time the "not the future skaters" - Adam, Jason, Max - all had reasonably solid seasons and put together genuine cases for Olympic and World consideration. Additionally, the number of outings Zhou had also exposed to the international judges that he's a chronic UR skater, and it remains to be seen whether the USFS can convince the international judges to overlook it. I mean, when you're still getting 4 URs called out at US Nationals you know it's bad.

It shows a flaw in the USFS' thinking. They're so obsessed with "the future" that they forget about the "here and now". Well, I think that could come back to bite them this season. You haven't got Max to save your butt any more this season. You haven't got Adam to be the senior veteran on the team. Jason will be the veteran. Nathan is mixing school and skating in a big way.

 

[Mrs. P]

On the other hand Vincent does have the second highest season’s best score among the U.S. men thanks to a good performance at the Olympics. And he was third after the SP, so he show moments of fulfilling potential.

Vincent had a bad Worlds, so did Boyang.

It will be interesting what the landscape looks like in the coming year. Jason may be the veteran but he’s going to get some technique overhaul, so not sure whether that could play havoc on his consistency.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

In the U.S., I think the test case is Vincent Zhou. The USFSA has pushed him as hard as they can because, well, he can get good scores on base value alone. His more experienced rivals, such as Adam Rippon, Jason Brown, Max Aaron, etc. -- there is a feeling that we already know what they can do, their strengths and their weaknesses. I can see where the federation would lean toward investing in the future.

Not that you need to force anyone into premature retirement, but just in terms of international assignments, putting Zhou out there in front of the judges, etc.

Your post reminds me why I'm mixed on this issue. While skaters should no doubt have an opportunity to skate as long as they wish, we do have up-and-coming skaters who might not get opportunities to skate in big events and fail so they can come back stronger in the future. Yes, the young skaters should beat all comers to earn their spots, but when you have experienced competitors having errors overlooked because of their reputation, it becomes very difficult.

 

[Ice Dance]

Ting Cui's a significant talent, but her last season was a disaster and she seems to be struggling with her coaching situation.

I'm sorry, but what? She does seem to be struggling with her coaching situation; but her last season was a huge success for Ting. Coming into the season as #2 in novices and with only a few JGP spots available and with a number of experienced junior ladies likely to fill them, Ting 1. placed high enough during the summer & at the Bavarian Open to win a surprise berth on the JGP, 2. bested the reigning Junior Champion in the SP at that JGP, 3. Placed third at U.S. Junior Nationals, 4. Outscored the reigning novice champion and every Junior-Worlds-eligible U.S. lady competing in the senior & junior event at U.S. Nationals except Starr Andrews--despite limited base value for competing junior programs. (This included outscoring JGP medalist Emy Ma, Junior National Champion Kaitlyn Nguyen, former junior & JGP medalist Vivian Le, etc.) And--with only one JGP under her belt--placed 7th at Junior Worlds (ahead of Young You and Rika Kihira!). It was a hugely successful season for a young woman that had finished 2nd in novices the year before.

 

[Shayuki]

I'm sorry, but what? She does seem to be struggling with her coaching situation; but her last season was a huge success for Ting. Coming into the season as #2 in novices and with only a few JGP spots available and with a number of experienced junior ladies likely to fill them, Ting 1. placed high enough during the summer & at the Bavarian Open to win a surprise berth on the JGP, 2. bested the reigning Junior Champion in the SP at that JGP, 3. Placed third at U.S. Junior Nationals, 4. Outscored the reigning novice champion and every Junior-Worlds-eligible U.S. lady competing in the senior & junior event at U.S. Nationals except Starr Andrews--despite limited base value for competing junior programs. (This included outscoring JGP medalist Emy Ma, Junior National Champion Kaitlyn Nguyen, former junior & JGP medalist Vivian Le, etc.) And--with only one JGP under her belt--placed 7th at Junior Worlds (ahead of Young You and Rika Kihira!). It was a hugely successful season for a young woman that had finished 2nd in novices the year before.

I guess we have pretty different expectations and standards. The jr worlds placement is good, that's true(By the other skaters majorly messing up, mind). Still, considering that I consider her the clearly strongest talent for USA before Liu, it wasn't what I expected out of her. It's possible though that the recency bias with her coaching situation is making me overly negative, though.

The names you bring up, by the way, are what I'm worried about. Emy Ma, Vivian Le, etc. have gone on a steep decline after their major breakthrough junior seasons and that trend worries me. Hopefully that's not her future as well.

 

[Figure 8's]

One thing I absolutely hate is reputation scoring. Ashley thought she should have been scored higher because of her repudiation. Sorry but that is at the expense of new younger skaters. US Nationals use to be one of the worst but has given younger skaters a chance in the last couple of years.

 

[IndiaP12]

I think they should just do what makes them happiest or what they feel like doing. If it’s staying in competition, so be it. Yes some I feel maybe need to retire or step it down a bit, but if they still enjoy competing then they should just retire when they don’t anymore (Or if there’s a significant health issue, of course).

 

[karne]

Your post reminds me why I'm mixed on this issue. While skaters should no doubt have an opportunity to skate as long as they wish, we do have up-and-coming skaters who might not get opportunities to skate in big events and fail so they can come back stronger in the future. Yes, the young skaters should beat all comers to earn their spots, but when you have experienced competitors having errors overlooked because of their reputation, it becomes very difficult.

In context of replying to the post that you did, this is a little bizzare. Zhou has had plenty of opportunities afforded to him, indeed being pushed ahead at several points by USFS (89 PCS sure whatever). Zhou was one who had errors overlooked at US Nationals (easily arguable that Max and Jason, on the other hand, had very little overlooked). Indeed, Zhou was being pushed so hard supposedly clever journalists like Hersh were proclaiming him a lock for the Olympic team right after he finished lowest on the GP of the top five US men!

 

[Skater Boy]

Ok... I’ll bite

Four years ago, people were clammering for both Ashley and Mirai to retire. At the time it looked like we had so many talented upcoming skaters. Polina, Amber Glenn, Angela, Karen Chen, Tyler, and Gracie just to name a few. Mirai was considered finished and Ashley was considered inferior to Gracie. But they both stuck with it and fought hard to achieve more success.

The process of retiring is difficult for any athlete. Sasha, Michelle, Rachel, and other skaters have described how overwhelming it feels when you finally realize it’s over. It’s hard to go from spending all your days at the rink training, at the gym, and competing all year to doing nothing. It’s why so many skaters eventually come back to give it another try. For instance, Patrick, Mao, and Tessa and Scott came back. And Carolina chose to return and compete as well. Sometimes you have success and sometimes you just need it to see that it’s time to leave.

I disagree that they are taking up spots. In order to have strong competitors in an sport, they need to compete to be the best. Having a weak nationals when skaters win by default in a weak field will always lead to weak competitors. I’d rather have a competition like Russian Juniors where even the 12th place finisher could win on any day. Because it pushes all the competitors to always be at their best. If new he skaters can’t defeat Ashley or Mirai, it’s because they need to work harder and be better. They need to earn that spot.

What you are advising is what was done during the 2007-2011 period. A different national champion every year who couldn’t handle the pressure on the world stage. USFS then switched their attention to the next phenom that rose, and they fizzled just as fast as the next. I think it should be transitional. With younger skaters beating the former champs consistently, proving they are ready to take the mantle.

So I’m all for letting Gracie, Mirai, and Ashley compete longer. They’re not hurting anyone by doing so.

Well I think "they're not hurting anyone" is a bit naive or depends on your perspective. Deep down other skaters recognize having them around takes away the limelight, potential endorsements, funding, medals, competition opportunities and the list goes on. We all know the publicity game; no one will truly admit why they are coming back especially if it is not so Miss America answer. It is hard to leave the limelight - I think Gracie found that out. opportunity cost is low right now with so few opportunities so they continue to stay olympic eligible. There isn't a lot of skating shows and pro competitions. A lot of them have no or little education and only know skating. While Bradie seems solidly USA no. 1 she is not particularly wonderful, special and could be knocked off by an "on" Ashley, Mirai or Karen and certainly Gracie. Right now and for the last few years noone of the American ladies were WOW amazing. so the door is wide open and who will walk through is the question.

 

[Jammers]

It seems like the new thing to do for these veteran skaters is to say they are sitting out the GP and then they will make a decision if they want to continue. At this point i'm ready for these skaters and teams who have been around for 3 Olympic cycles to call it a day. I've watched some of these skaters for over a decade and it's really time to go. There is more then enough talent and personalities among the younger skaters now for the sport to move on. Seeing skaters like Reynolds, Březina and Ten hanging on when they are way past their prime is a bit baffling.

 

[lichi]

lol that's some trolling probably
I mean, come on, Tennell has won a GP bronze and USFSA went all in with her, treating her as a top US lady, giving her national title, etc. They are ready to give a chance to anyone, but the problem is that there are very few to go with (well, actually none at the moment).
Why would skaters like Wagner or Nagasu retire if there are no competition in their country? That would be stupid, they can win a few more medals and so. Also, if juniors can't even prove themselves in such weak nationals, what will they achieve at international scene, in more competitive environment? Nothing.
Top US skaters were 9th, 10th, 11th at Olympics if i'm not mistaken, do you want even worse results? This is just the best what they have at the moment. But even if they would have more strong competitors, there always can be situation like it happened with Russia - they have sent an average junior (Konstantinova) to the competition (Worlds) and look what happened. One top skater is injured(Medvedeva), second one is exhausted and ill(Zagitova) and we almost ended up losing three spots! It's always good to have more skaters to go with.

P.S. I'm more than sure, when Alysa will be eligible they will push her as hard as they can(if she will be at least as good as now), we just have to wait.

They don't even need to wait until she's eligible to push. She got 198.25 (71 SP, 127.25 LP) at Broadmoor Open. That's higher than Wagner, almost higher than Chen at Nationals (would've medal'd at Junior Worlds with this score too). I recall she said in Instastory that she's moving up to seniors this year, so the USFSA might hype her earlier, especially if she medals at Nationals.

 

[SarahSynchro]

But that "test case" showed an error in their judgement, because Zhou's GP season was bad and he had a total meltdown at Worlds and the US had to have their butts saved by the guy who'd not been skating for a month and had gone there on two weeks' training. Additionally, in spite of all the pushing the USFS were doing (89 PCS at Nationals FGS), the international judges weren't fooled and his PCS was pretty low (he got a sub-70 PCS at IdF!). In the mean time the "not the future skaters" - Adam, Jason, Max - all had reasonably solid seasons and put together genuine cases for Olympic and World consideration. Additionally, the number of outings Zhou had also exposed to the international judges that he's a chronic UR skater, and it remains to be seen whether the USFS can convince the international judges to overlook it. I mean, when you're still getting 4 URs called out at US Nationals you know it's bad.

It shows a flaw in the USFS' thinking. They're so obsessed with "the future" that they forget about the "here and now". Well, I think that could come back to bite them this season. You haven't got Max to save your butt any more this season. You haven't got Adam to be the senior veteran on the team. Jason will be the veteran. Nathan is mixing school and skating in a big way.

As I was reading this thread, my spidey senses were tingling in anticipation of you posting exactly this above. You did not disappoint, my dear. There is much truth to what you’re saying here.

 

[Eeyora]

I didn’t know skaters were obligated to make a retirement announcement. I’m still waiting for Michelle Kwan to return...

 

[Lester]

I’m very surprised we haven’t heard many US Ladies announcing their retirements recently. Yes we have heard of taking a break or not doing the Grand Prix competitions but why are so many US Ladies skaters not going for retirement. My guess is because there’s nothing else for them and skating is all they know. During the 80s and 90s Skaters used to look forward to professional competitions but as we all know they do not exist anymore.
I think at last years nationals USFSA was giving a hint to these ladies such as Ashley Wagner that her time was up. I’m surprised Mirai is still thinking of competing. Her lack of motivation after winning bronze in the team event showed for the individual competition and the worlds. Gracie Gold I feel her time is up as well and should focus on just getting healthy and maybe become a coach or a speaker against eating disorders in sports.
I know some will say they still have a drive to compete, but if you can’t win medals you are taking up spots where other younger skaters can get their time in the spot light

Is this even a question or a presentation of random thoughts on the subject?

Although I have to say, it is sad to watch competitors who have clearly lost motivation struggle season after season. I don't really see Ashley or Mirai conjuring competitive hunger out of nowhere in the next couple of seasons but Gracie I think can make quite the comeback this season. Let's hope so!

And it is interesting to see what the lower ranked US ladies will come up with in this fresh new Olympic cycle when hopes are high and possibilities are endless, many of them have also not retired.