Women and the Quad | Page 23 | Golden Skate

Women and the Quad

Compare their quads to the Quad Lutz of Boyang or Kolyada, or the best examples of Quad Toes. It is not the same, their quads are significantly smaller. They are able to do these jumps because of cheating the entrance, plain and simple. If they did not cheat the entrance and tried to jump a quad, they would never land backwards and would fall more frequently.

im pretty sure someone actually calculated the heights of sasha and anna's quads and they were on par with the men, im not sure where your getting this "significantly smaller" analysis from.

either way im sure we'll see soon enough how high their jumps really are. or was the fancy height calculating technology at worlds just a japanese thing?
 
I'm still surprised by how unfair the discourse is when we're talking about the height of Quads completed by 14 year old girls compared to senior 20+ men, and the top skaters at that. There is a thread dedicated to pre-rotation as well.
 
either way im sure we'll see soon enough how high their jumps really are. or was the fancy height calculating technology at worlds just a japanese thing?

Unfortunately, you can't rely on Ice Scope data:
IceScope sham exposure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5LhKLXddts

There is literally one random man who just marks manually, by eye - on a strongly tilted tv image filmed from ceiling camera - two points (presumable beginning and end of jump) and draws direct line between them. The application would calculate the rest after that. Apparently this app was used for baseball before. So.. yeah - talking about "hi-tech" and "computer calculating" - it's just human entering the data manually with huge margin for error (they even don't determine exact area of a boot or blade from where height calculation should begin - with top-down angle it's just impossible) :drama::laugh:
 
I love Sasha’s jumps....for me it’s a case closed situation.

I used to complain about Satoko but I’ve even given that up a few years back. The judges have enough GOE both positive and negative to address PR and ugly jumps if they choose to. The system is fine...not sure it’s being utilized yet but maybe when stiffer competition arises with better technique the judges will start having reasons to be more discerning. I’ve long since stopped caring if every judge agrees with me or not though. I’ve had a lot of fun pulling for the quadsters and this awesome movement which is why I continue to be a fan of the sport. It’s fun :p
 
I'm still surprised by how unfair the discourse is when we're talking about the height of Quads completed by 14 year old girls compared to senior 20+ men, and the top skaters at that. There is a thread dedicated to pre-rotation as well.

Sad that’s being used to dismiss Sasha and Anna’s quads. Also not sure if Kolyada’s 4Lz is the best example - as even he can’t do them to his supposed benchmark (don’t think he attempts them anymore).
 
While men's jumps are higher than women's on average - Trusova's 60cm quads have decent height even by men's standart.

60cm is fine, but not among the best. Regardless, she is cheating the jump, making it considerably easier to execute than how it's supposed to be done. The rotation is less and it visibility looks different, like the jump has been amputated.

Difficulty of elements is not an end in itself in figure skating. Main purpose of elements is to make the skating more beautiful - which not necessarily means more difficult.

I find this strange of you to suddenly argue, considering the kind of skating you seem to support.

What does it have to do with the current discussion of judging quads themselves, and especially how on earth is this supposed to be some kind of argument in favor of Trusova? Her programs are not good. The amount beauty she shows in her skating is WAYYYYYY less than what we saw from top girls of her age in the past. If you try to compare her skating to Michelle Kwan's "Salome" or "Romanza", then Trusova deserves maybe a 6.0 for PCS, whereas Kwan deserves around 9.5. Kwan is in a whole different universe with her line, posture, choreography, musicality, expression, stroking, blade control; and even her basic jump technique is better.

That level of skating we saw in the past has disappeared. It's been replaced by these forced jumps and meaningless transitions and spin/footwork positions.

The same can be said about 4Lo BV. While this quad jump is the most difficult of them - it's not the most expensive because Lutz is just better-looking.

??? The base values of the jumps are based on average level of difficulty. It varies from skater to skater, different people are more comfortable with different jumps. Which type of jump is better looking really comes down to the viewer's own preference (and how well it's executed). Overall it's fair to say 4Lz is the most difficult on average, if we consider what textbook executions of these jumps are supposed to be like. A textbook Lutz or Flip jump is actually supposed to have more rotation in the air then Loop/Salchow/Toe, which contributes to why they are supposed to be harder on average.

As I mentioned though, these cheated Quads visibly look worse anyway.

You may consider prerotated jump techniques as a way of optimization - instead of deragotary "cheating".

That's like saying a Flutz should be considered as a way of optimizing the Lutz, or that shallow edges should be seen as a way of optimizing the ability to do difficult turns on the ice, or that a corporation falsely advertising their products is a fair way of optimizing revenue. This argument is horrific and wrong to me.

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Is it necessary to compare ladies quad lutz to mens' though?

The jumps are all judged by the same criteria regardless of gender, so....

Kolyada was not able to control his quad lutz (inconsistent).

Yes, because a REAL quad lutz, particularly with his amazing amplitude, is incredibly hard. It's just a completely different thing and not even in the realm of possibility for the Eteri girls. If someone is not able to do something, the correct answer is not to cheat and give equal credit. Are you also in favor of wealthy people using bribes to get their kids into Harvard? :laugh:
 
60cm is fine, but not among the best. Regardless, she is cheating the jump, making it considerably easier to execute than how it's supposed to be done. The rotation is less and it visibility looks different, like the jump has been amputated.

I always appreciate your passion but I respectfully disagree with this and TBH think you are overstating your case.

There is room for discussion and evaluation but a full condemnation seems a bit overpassionate.
 
Yes, because a REAL quad lutz, particularly with his amazing amplitude, is incredibly hard. It's just a completely different thing and not even in the realm of possibility for the Eteri girls. If someone is not able to do something, the correct answer is not to cheat and give equal credit. Are you also in favor of wealthy people using bribes to get their kids into Harvard? :laugh:

... glad you can amuse yourself I guess ;)

It seems that landing this real and amazing quad lutz is also unfortunately mostly outside the realm of possibility for Kolyada as well.
 
... glad you can amuse yourself I guess ;)

It seems that landing this ‘REAL’ and amazing quad lutz is also unfortunately mostly outside the realm of possibility for himself as well.

That’s kinda the point. He has such a low success rate because of height, speed, distance, lack or pre rotation. All things that make it harder to land. However when landed it is beautiful. I don’t know that I find the same beauty in the quads of Alexandra, Anna or Alysa.

While it’s debatable, I find large flowing jumps much more pleasing then smaller more quickly rotated ones.
 
I always appreciate your passion but I respectfully disagree with this and TBH think you are overstating your case.

What is being overstated though? The jumps are factually easier to do by pre-rotating them. It's basic physics even. If they are not scored accurately, then there's no point in even having this scoring system.

The skaters still even get rewarded for doing "clean" underrotated jumps. 4Lz< with +1 GOE is worth plenty of points, way more than a 2Lz, which is effectively what the skaters are replacing in their programs to do the Quad, with the way that zayak limitations work out.

It seems that landing this ‘REAL’ and amazing quad lutz is also unfortunately mostly outside the realm of possibility for Kolyada as well.

That's how high-risk elements work. You get tons of points if you do it, much less points if you don't. Trying to go for a +5 GOE quality 4Lz is not a walk in a park. Kolyada at least rotated it even if he didn't land it consistently, though. The Eteri girls would be incapable of rotating the jump if you asked them to do it with that takeoff.

Kolyada is also just one skater. Boyang Jin and Nathan Chen are showing consistent 4Lz without pre-rotating at all. Vincent Zhou is consistent on it, with some pre-rotation, but less than what the Eteri girls do (and also with a generally more backwards landing than Trusova).
 
Unfortunately, you can't rely on Ice Scope data:

Wow, so it's not based on sensors or anything and it's one person "calculating" it based on a specific angle. What's smaller than a grain of salt? Because now I'm taking ice scope numbers even less. I wonder if the number changes based on the nationality of the cameraman/skater? They could skew the numbers in favour or against a particular skater.
 
Boyang Jin and Nathan Chen are showing consistent 4Lz without pre-rotating at all.

B-but Boyang Jin is not consistent at all with his Lutz :unsure:
In some cases it might be a small enough cheat to count for "full" credit, but other times not (in Trusova's case, all of her Quads I've seen in competition are more than 1/4 short).
https://youtu.be/heGvrtB-fvg?t=296
https://youtu.be/84IEJBesPXc?t=322
https://youtu.be/c09kPUebLZ4?t=74
https://gph.is/2VHinfg
and more..
It means you just haven't seen enough :shrug:
 
i don't think any of the ladies landing quads right now have perfect quads, obviously the pre-rotation on sasha's 4Lz is greater than boyang's and you are able to see a difference. however, people are being unnecessarily hyperbolic and dramatic for no good reason, you'd think they were pre-rotating 3 whole revolutions judging by some of these adjectives that are being thrown around :drama:. is boyang's 4Lz nicer than sasha's? yea it is but we're still comparing quads. the level of outrage is ridiculous especially since we never see people get this worked up about pre-rotating triples :confused2:

i also dont understand this constant emphasis on quads done by the top men. are quads done by other men not quads? why are the ladies being held to this standard that other men aren't even held to?
 
i don't think any of the ladies landing quads right now have perfect quads, obviously the pre-rotation on sasha's 4Lz is greater than boyang's and you are able to see a difference. however, people are being unnecessarily hyperbolic and dramatic for no good reason, you'd think they were pre-rotating 3 whole revolutions judging by some of these adjectives that are being thrown around :drama:. is boyang's 4Lz nicer than sasha's? yea it is but we're still comparing quads. the level of outrage is ridiculous especially since we never see people get this worked up about pre-rotating triples :confused2:

i also dont understand this constant emphasis on quads done by the top men. are quads done by other men not quads? why are the ladies being held to this standard that other men aren't even held to?

Ladies with quads upset the apple cart - so some might try to invalidate ladies quads by comparing them unfavorably with the best mens'. Just look at Elizabet - her 4S helped her get on the podium at Worlds - over some of the skaters who had been more favored to medal.

Ladies quads can be really disruptive to the supposed established 'order' - get ready for chaos next season :)
 
B-but Boyang Jin is not consistent at all with his Lutz :unsure:

Huh, how so? He's been doing it for 4 seasons now, and hit 8/10 attempts at Worlds/Olympics. He's 7/8 at 4CC, which is an even better percentage. That's consistent.


Of these Trusova quads, the first one is a Lutz, the others Toes. Here is the Lutz:

Takeoff / Landing

That is short. The commentary in the video is hilarious too, he's exclaiming "all the way around!" when she's clearly not around, right there in the direct camera angle, with the blade grinding sideways in the ice! People don't know what they are looking at, sorry to say.

For the other examples you gave, 2nd video was 1/4 turn short on the Quad Toe.

That last Quad Toe, though, might be the best I've seen her do for rotation; seems enough to escape a < call. It's still definitely not all the way around, but "sufficient". That one is from her most recent competition, interestingly. Maybe she is getting more comfortable with it. Still, the GOE should be low. There's a slightly jerky landing position and lack of full rotation, not much distance covered, no difficult entrance. There's no reason to give extra points. It's just an "okay" 4Toe attempt.

I'd also like to point out how completely the performance breaks. Her arms are drooped at her side all the whole way down the the ice, posture is not elegant or expressive, she's looking down, no choreography, no relation to the music, and slowing down as she goes into the jump. No expression when landing the jump either. This is not what skating should be. Congrats for doing the jump, but her PCS should be very low and this kind of a performance with a Quad should not beat a good program with "only" Triples.
 
Confused by this thread. Comparing to men's quads is only okay if it makes their quads look better but it's bad if it doesn't? I think it'll be good to remind everyone that this was started by people saying they're jumping better than men which in my opinion is partly correct because some men do have worse looking jumps and you can get that data anywhere. Boyang's 3A was compared to Yuzuru's 3A on National TV, Rika's 3A was ranked with the men's data at 4CC as well and I don't see public outcry over that.
 
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