Zagitova edges out Medvedeva for Oly Gold

[MedoLove]

So I just did some quick research to back up my findings. Alina has always been judged more favorably than Zhenya, and it is incredibly unfair IMO. I just don't find them at the same level PCS-wise, artistically, whatever you want to call it. This advantage resulting in a disproportionate separation between the two of them is what gave Zagitova the OGM.

Let's compare: and btw, I am only concerned about PCS here. I am posting TES and TSS to not put things out of context.

Zhenya's first ever senior Grand Prix event was 2015 Skate America. In the long program she scored 66.93 TES and 67.16 PCS. She had a 1.00 deduction for falling on a double axel and her TSS was 135.09.
The pinnacle of Zhenya's first senior season was 2016 Worlds in Boston. In the long program she scored 77.76 TES and 72.34 PCS. Her TSS was 150.10. So during her first season, her PCS went up 5.18 This seems perfectly reasonable.

Alina's first ever senior Grand Prix event was 2017 Cup of China. In the long program she scored 76.09 TES and 68.35 PCS. Her TSS was 144.44.
We just saw the main event (or as it turned out to be, the nightmare) for what Alina's senior season was building towards--the 2018 Olympics in Gangneung, South Korea. In the long program she scored 81.62 TES and 75.03 PCS for a grand total TSS of 156.65. So over the course of Zagitova's first senior season (which btw isn't even over yet and very well may soar even higher @ Worlds) her PCS has increased 6.68. So not only is this a bigger overall increase than what Medvedeva received her first season, she already started with a 1.19 higher PCS score. To put this in a real-world simulation, Alina's Olympic long program was judged higher in PCS by a whopping 2.69 than Zhenya's revelatory skate to win her first World title. UNFAIR. And I don't think it's comparable to the comparison of Zhenya's WR scores in 2016 to what Yuna Kim achieved in 2010. This is only a 3 year difference with Zhenya and Alina and not the same or as many changes have taken place with the scoring or guidelines IIRC.

And I know that scores from different competitions are not supposed to be directly compared (I think that's what they say anyway??) but it gives you an extremely helpful guideline. You can clearly see that Zagitova has always been judged MUCH more favorably than Medvedeva despite IMO not being as gifted in many of the components. Therefore I feel the accurate separation between the two is not being properly applied. Hopefully people will find this as interesting as I do. Seeing the PCS scores Zagitova was receiving last season (and them being higher than what Zhenya got her last junior season) was incredibly illuminating as to how this whole thing could shake down.

This!!

I don't know why people are denying the EVIDENT, ABSURD AND NEVER BEFORE VIEW inflation of Alina's PCs, mainly in her SP, crazy 37.63.


Skating Scores up a graphic that shows this ridiculous shot.

Let's start with this irrefutable TRUTH from which all the favorites and champions have always benefited, including Kim Yuna: CONSISTENCY.
In no way is comparable to the pcs that Zhenya BUILT IN TWO YEARS AND A HALF, based on CONSISTENCY, and regularly deliver almost clean programs BACK TO BACK. Evgenia won her first European championship with only 70 pcs vs Alina's 75+, even though her FS had better CO, IN, and PE than Alina's.Won her first Worlds with 72 pcs, In the following seasons her PCS increased only 2 points, and this depended on her CONSISTENCY, literally Evgenia never fell in her programs until the World Cup 2017,she did incredible deliveries and won her last Worlds with 34 pcs in the SP and 76 pcs in the FS .
Alina in her FIRST SEASON, she almost always fell in her SP, even in the Cup of China, she only won because Wakaba was restricted in her PCS, while hers went up for no reason. She only did programs back to back 2 times. Evgenia raised 7 pcs points thanks to her constant work for almost THREE YEARS, while Alina in FOUR MONTHS, rose 8 points.Why did Zagitova's brands explode obscenely in just one season, if she have not even shown a REAL consistency or improvement in their IN, PE?


If we subtract those 8 inflation points, and we give them to Satoko, who deserves more those 75 and 37 pcs ,Satoko would then add 150, but since Satoko has even better PE, CO, and SS, she would have to have the same pcs as Evgenia, that is 77. Then Satoko should score 152.


Now, if we mention the technical, please don't show Alina as a genius because she is not, the first half of her FS should not even have high GOE, her stsq is slow and the ice cover is poor, she saves energy by reducing speed and occupying less space on the track, no deep edges are appreciated and the quality of the 11 turns to be evaluated are not very good or notorious at a distance like those of Evgenia. If we go to the jumps, I applaud her 3ltz-3Lo, but her landing is not extensive and lacks flow, because of the excess of elements and the short time (her landings are short and doubtful like those of Shoma), she is also in the UR limit, and like Evgenia pre rotates.

In addition, she skated outside the music, her only excuse for her CO and PE is to jump according to the accents, but often she gets lost, in fact there is not even a personake in her FS, only the Black Swan has a decent story, which she executes mechanically.


Let's make it clear that the judges were lenient with EVERYONE (except for Masha and Kaori who were the scapegoats of Kostner) and let slip errors from Satoko, Osmond (her huge flutz in the sp), the 3ltz-3T> Dabin, the flutz of Daleman. They were also generous with Osmond's null transitions and scored high. Even if they had called Evgenia (!) This takes away 2 points (not "e", if they did not call "e" Osmond then they would not do it with MEd).
Then the real score would be like this, Evgenia 154 (77+77), Alina 149 (81+68).

 

[MiRé]

This!!

I don't know why people are denying the EVIDENT, ABSURD AND NEVER BEFORE VIEW inflation of Alina's PCs, mainly in her SP, crazy 37.63.


Skating Scores up a graphic that shows this ridiculous shot.

Let's start with this irrefutable TRUTH from which all the favorites and champions have always benefited, including Kim Yuna: CONSISTENCY.
In no way is comparable to the pcs that Zhenya BUILT IN TWO YEARS AND A HALF, based on CONSISTENCY, and regularly deliver almost clean programs BACK TO BACK. Evgenia won her first European championship with only 70 pcs vs Alina's 75+, even though her FS had better CO, IN, and PE than Alina's.Won her first Worlds with 72 pcs, In the following seasons her PCS increased only 2 points, and this depended on her CONSISTENCY, literally Evgenia never fell in her programs until the World Cup 2017,she did incredible deliveries and won her last Worlds with 34 pcs in the SP and 76 pcs in the FS .
Alina in her FIRST SEASON, she almost always fell in her SP, even in the Cup of China, she only won because Wakaba was restricted in her PCS, while hers went up for no reason. She only did programs back to back 2 times. Evgenia raised 7 pcs points thanks to her constant work for almost THREE YEARS, while Alina in FOUR MONTHS, rose 8 points.Why did Zagitova's brands explode obscenely in just one season, if she have not even shown a REAL consistency or improvement in their IN, PE?


If we subtract those 8 inflation points, and we give them to Satoko, who deserves more those 75 and 37 pcs ,Satoko would then add 150, but since Satoko has even better PE, CO, and SS, she would have to have the same pcs as Evgenia, that is 77. Then Satoko should score 152.


Now, if we mention the technical, please don't show Alina as a genius because she is not, the first half of her FS should not even have high GOE, her stsq is slow and the ice cover is poor, she saves energy by reducing speed and occupying less space on the track, no deep edges are appreciated and the quality of the 11 turns to be evaluated are not very good or notorious at a distance like those of Evgenia. If we go to the jumps, I applaud her 3ltz-3Lo, but her landing is not extensive and lacks flow, because of the excess of elements and the short time (her landings are short and doubtful like those of Shoma), she is also in the UR limit, and like Evgenia pre rotates.

In addition, she skated outside the music, her only excuse for her CO and PE is to jump according to the accents, but often she gets lost, in fact there is not even a personake in her FS, only the Black Swan has a decent story, which she executes mechanically.


Let's make it clear that the judges were lenient with EVERYONE (except for Masha and Kaori who were the scapegoats of Kostner) and let slip errors from Satoko, Osmond (her huge flutz in the sp), the 3ltz-3T> Dabin, the flutz of Daleman. They were also generous with Osmond's null transitions and scored high. Even if they had called Evgenia (!) This takes away 2 points (not "e", if they did not call "e" Osmond then they would not do it with MEd).
Then the real score would be like this, Evgenia 154 (77+77), Alina 149 (81+68).

Evgenia receiving 77 PCS is even more absurd than Alina getting 75 PCS. ISU rulebook doesn't mention anything about increase in PCS due to consistency or "effort." Otherwise Yuna Kim would have won 2014 Olympics, and just for the record, she NEVER benefited from being consistent. And let's not kid ourselves. Evgenia's Flutz is a beautiful, deep inside edge while Osmond;s is flat, slight inside edge.

 

[chopinskate]

And let's not kid ourselves. Evgenia's Flutz is a beautiful, deep inside edge while Osmond;s is flat, slight inside edge.

Needs more emphasis, so:

deep inside edge

 

[Shayuki]

Even if they had called Evgenia (!) This takes away 2 points (not "e", if they did not call "e" Osmond then they would not do it with MEd).
Then the real score would be like this, Evgenia 154 (77+77), Alina 149 (81+68).

Meh, I like Evgenia's skating but this just isn't the case. Osmond's flutz is usually clear but in this competition it wasn't very bad(probably the entire reason she had a step out) and was still called a !. Kaori's is just as bad as Medvedeva's and was e. Medvedeva should have gotten e for her flutz here...

 

[chopinskate]

And let's not forget the GOEs on Med's jumps. Please.

 

[christinaskater]

It wasn’t a post such as that. It was who will win ladies in Sochi

 

[yume]

I literally Evgenia never fell in her programs until the World Cup 2017,she did incredible deliveries and won her last Worlds with 34 pcs in the SP and 76 pcs in the FS .
.

If it's only for 2016-2017 season, she fell in FS at GP France. If not, she fell 4 times in her first season too.
36,91 PCS in SP at 2017 Worlds.

Evgenia receiving 77 PCS is even more absurd than Alina getting 75 PCS. ISU rulebook doesn't mention anything about increase in PCS due to consistency or "effort." Otherwise Yuna Kim would have won 2014 Olympics, and just for the record, she NEVER benefited from being consistent.

Seriously, Yuna Kim was not that consistent. She had the consistency of Osmond. Always clean or near clean in SP, but always some errors in FS. Take part to 2 competitions in 2 years and deliver 2 cleans programs back-to-back is not consistency.

 

[chopinskate]

Seriously, Yuna Kim was not that consistent. She had the consistency of Osmond. Always clean or near clean in SP, but always some errors in FS. Take part to 2 competitions in 2 years and deliver 2 cleans programs back-to-back is not consistency.

While I do agree that she rarely delivered two clean programs, I don't think consistency should be measured like that. It should be in comparison to the others -- Yuna falling once, or popping a jump in the FS was still nearly always enough to guarantee a gold because the others made far more errors, and also far more often. When she did make more errors, she was penalised by having her bumped down to second or third.

So yes, she was consistent in her ability to put up the best performances of the competition. She was never a wild card. Just like now Satoko, Med and Zag are consistent, because they almost never make mistakes in a field where making mistakes will knock you off the podium. And because, just like Yuna, Med and Zag can be relied upon to put up the first or second best performance of the competition.

Look at it this way: Yuzuru has not had two clean programs for a long time now (or maybe ever). Would you call him inconsistent?

 

[charlotte14]

Look at it this way: Yuzuru has not had two clean programs for a long time now (or maybe ever). Would you call him inconsistent?

Yeah it's funny when people call Hanyu inconsistent but aside from NHK 2014 (when he had 5 days of practice with bandages all over his body), Hanyu never finished lower than 2nd since 2014.

 

[yume]

While I do agree that she rarely delivered two clean programs too often, I don't think consistency should be measured like that. It should be in comparison to the others -- Yuna falling once, or popping a jump in the FS was still nearly always enough to guarantee a gold because the others made far more errors, and also far more often. When she did make more errors, she was penalised by having her bumped down to second or third.

So yes, she was consistent in her ability to put up the best performances of the competition. She was never a wild card. Just like now Satoko, Med and Zag are consistent, because they almost never make mistakes in a field where making mistakes will knock you off the podium. And because, just like Yuna, Med and Zag can be relied upon to put up the first or second best performance of the competition.

Look at it this way: Yuzuru has not had two clean programs for a long time now (or maybe ever). Would you call him inconsistent?

Yuzuru is not consistent on skating two clean programs. But consistent on getting good results. No less than 2nd since 6 seasons (Aside from Worlds 2013 and NHK 2014 when he coud/should have withdraw)
Same with Yuna. And not always because she made less mistakes than others like you said, but because of her higher potential scoring (best GOEs and most of time best PCS, rarely Urs). Even with more mistakes she could still have the better score.

 

[chopinskate]

Yuzuru is not consistent on skating two clean programs. But consistent on getting good results. No less than 2nd since 6 seasons (Aside from Worlds 2013 and NHK 2014 when she coud/should have withdraw)
Same with Yuna. And not always because she made less mistakes than others like you said, but because of her higher potential scoring (best GOEs and most of time best PCS, rarely Urs). Even with more mistakes she could still have the better score.

Yes, and because they make fewer mistakes than other -- they are definitely consistent in that they can rely upon their repertoire. I'd define consistency based on results -- that's what I assume is happening for Zag and Med. Even Zag wasn't doing too well in the SP, and had trip ups in the LP a few times this season, and her PCS still got boosted from competition to competition, didn't it?

 

[yume]

I assume that we can have two definitions . Consistency based on programs and consistency based on results.
Zag is a special case. Even not being clean her PCS jumps (Eg: GPF SP)

 

[chopinskate]

Well, and consistency shouldn't really define PCS as far as I'm concerned. It depends on the program, and the judges' response to it -- but apart from the transitions into Zag's 2A in the short, I don't see any changes in Med's and Zag's programs for their constant PCS increase.

 

[russianfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHXqusVQO24
NBC's best moments

 

[EyesOfLove]

Seriously, Yuna Kim was not that consistent. She had the consistency of Osmond. Always clean or near clean in SP, but always some errors in FS. Take part to 2 competitions in 2 years and deliver 2 cleans programs back-to-back is not consistency.

I think it's relatively hard to be consistent when you skate and jump with more power and speed as do Kim and Osmond.

 

[yume]

I think it's relatively hard to be consistent when you skate and jump with more power and speed as do Kim and Osmond.

Maybe. But it's better to have powerful and rotated jumps. You can compensate your mistakes with your high GOEs on clean elements. You can still win against those who are cleans but have less powerful jumps and/or URs.

 

[chopinskate]

Maybe. But it's better to have powerful and rotated jumps. You can compensate your mistakes with your high GOEs on clean elements. You can still win against those who are cleans but have less powerful jumps and/or URs.

That won't happen anymore.

 

[colormyworld240]

This!!

I don't know why people are denying the EVIDENT, ABSURD AND NEVER BEFORE VIEW inflation of Alina's PCs, mainly in her SP, crazy 37.63.


Skating Scores up a graphic that shows this ridiculous shot.

Let's start with this irrefutable TRUTH from which all the favorites and champions have always benefited, including Kim Yuna: CONSISTENCY.
In no way is comparable to the pcs that Zhenya BUILT IN TWO YEARS AND A HALF, based on CONSISTENCY, and regularly deliver almost clean programs BACK TO BACK. Evgenia won her first European championship with only 70 pcs vs Alina's 75+, even though her FS had better CO, IN, and PE than Alina's.Won her first Worlds with 72 pcs, In the following seasons her PCS increased only 2 points, and this depended on her CONSISTENCY, literally Evgenia never fell in her programs until the World Cup 2017,she did incredible deliveries and won her last Worlds with 34 pcs in the SP and 76 pcs in the FS .
Alina in her FIRST SEASON, she almost always fell in her SP, even in the Cup of China, she only won because Wakaba was restricted in her PCS, while hers went up for no reason. She only did programs back to back 2 times. Evgenia raised 7 pcs points thanks to her constant work for almost THREE YEARS, while Alina in FOUR MONTHS, rose 8 points.Why did Zagitova's brands explode obscenely in just one season, if she have not even shown a REAL consistency or improvement in their IN, PE?


If we subtract those 8 inflation points, and we give them to Satoko, who deserves more those 75 and 37 pcs ,Satoko would then add 150, but since Satoko has even better PE, CO, and SS, she would have to have the same pcs as Evgenia, that is 77. Then Satoko should score 152.


Now, if we mention the technical, please don't show Alina as a genius because she is not, the first half of her FS should not even have high GOE, her stsq is slow and the ice cover is poor, she saves energy by reducing speed and occupying less space on the track, no deep edges are appreciated and the quality of the 11 turns to be evaluated are not very good or notorious at a distance like those of Evgenia. If we go to the jumps, I applaud her 3ltz-3Lo, but her landing is not extensive and lacks flow, because of the excess of elements and the short time (her landings are short and doubtful like those of Shoma), she is also in the UR limit, and like Evgenia pre rotates.

In addition, she skated outside the music, her only excuse for her CO and PE is to jump according to the accents, but often she gets lost, in fact there is not even a personake in her FS, only the Black Swan has a decent story, which she executes mechanically.


Let's make it clear that the judges were lenient with EVERYONE (except for Masha and Kaori who were the scapegoats of Kostner) and let slip errors from Satoko, Osmond (her huge flutz in the sp), the 3ltz-3T> Dabin, the flutz of Daleman. They were also generous with Osmond's null transitions and scored high. Even if they had called Evgenia (!) This takes away 2 points (not "e", if they did not call "e" Osmond then they would not do it with MEd).
Then the real score would be like this, Evgenia 154 (77+77), Alina 149 (81+68).

Where do you get that Evgenia's PCS is 9 points above Alina's? And her TES only 4 points below, in fair judging. Evgenia's jumps are more muscled, even less flow than Alina, edge problems, etc. Her spins travel and they're slow. Both of them are slow in stseq, and neither of them have the edges and speed of Kaetlyn. Evgenia is lighter on her feet than Alina, though. The 4 points is already the difference in their BV; her GOEs should be MUCH lower, on everything except her 3S-3T combo which is her only effortless jumping pass. If GOEs were correct and edge calls were made, their TES would be separated by at least 7 points. And while I agree Evgenia has better presentation, it doesn't warrant a 9 point difference, that is ridiculous. They're both very overscored in PCS; Evgenia's should be around Osmond and Alina's around 70.

 

[yume]

That won't happen anymore.

Edit: You can still win against someone who is not the chosen Russian.

 

[chopinskate]

Where do you get that Evgenia's PCS is 9 points above Alina's? And her TES only 4 points below, in fair judging. Evgenia's jumps are more muscled, even less flow than Alina, edge problems, etc. Her spins travel and they're slow. Both of them are slow in stseq, and neither of them have the edges and speed of Kaetlyn. Evgenia is lighter on her feet than Alina, though. The 4 points is already the difference in their BV; her GOEs should be MUCH lower, on everything except her 3S-3T combo which is her only effortless jumping pass. If GOEs were correct and edge calls were made, their TES would be separated by at least 7 points. And while I agree Evgenia has better presentation, it doesn't warrant a 9 point difference, that is ridiculous. They're both very overscored in PCS; Evgenia's should be around Osmond and Alina's around 70.

You're too lenient with the PCS for them all.

But I disagree with 3S-3T, too. Her 3S is good, but 3T is, again, a toe jump, and really needs to be looked at closely for her.

(Of course, it just means Zag should have a larger margin of victory)