Zagitova edges out Medvedeva for Oly Gold

[yume]

Her 3S-3T is borderline.

 

[Alexz]

Zagotiva won fair and square.

Her program was the most difficult and well-executed. It is a sport after all, not an ice show. That night she was stronger than others. Obvious. Period.

BTW, comparing Evgenia Obraztsova with 15 y o Zagktova is hilarious. I don't really get what do you demand from Zagotiva here? She is an athlete, not a ballerina. She was immitating and presenting interpretwtion of ballet ON SKATES, not trying to be like a pro ballerina.

Obraztsova is top notch world-famous and beloved Russian ballerina, Vaganova graduated (real Vaganova graduatee, not some our American knockoff Vaganova or "American Bolshoi academy"). Beware, right now a lot of ex-Russian/ex-Soviet immigrants slash ex-ballerinas (turned into teaching) falsely advertise themselves as genuine "Vaganova" or "Bolshoi". There a only limited amount of actually legit Vaganova or Bolshoi official dance teachers/schools in US which are sponsored and quality-controled by Vaganova and Bolshoi academies respectively. If your dance teacher claims she is Vaganova- or Bolshoi- trained, well.. it actually doesn't mean much and it's for sure doesn't automatically mean she can teach you perfectly in Vaganova method. Russians are very strict and very particular when it comes to their technique. Even many old ballet schools in Russia itself don't have Vaganova status.

There is a reason why every single year there are 2 thousand kids and their desperate parents banging on the door of Vaganova in St Petersburg on the day of annual audition exam, ready to pay any amount of money and bend themselves backwards and inside-out just to be get their foot in. There is a good reason why many Europeans, Americans and Asians desperately try to get into original Vaganova too. There are plenty of successful stories already. Sometimes Mariinsky theater picks up random talents in other countries and invites them in, they "re-train" them into Vaganova and make them world stars - see Britain's Xander Parish and Korean Kimin Kim. Out of 2 thousand kids only 25-30 are usually selected (and approx 10 more as candidates) to enlist into the program. 30% usually drops out in the first year. After 8 years of studying only 15-20 graduates making it. Mariinsky, Bolshoi, Mikhailovsky and Stanislavsky pick up only 10-12 of them, max. The rest of graduates have to flock to the Europe or US or provincial Russian cities, they are a third-tier kind of dancers, but they are top notch qualities nevertheless. However, there are some exceptions, like Polina Semionova. (she was already great in her young ages, but developed a D-cup size in her teen ages, and Russians are superficial here, especially when it comes to ballet - their ballerinas just have to have perfect classic proportions.)

So be aware - if someone claim to be Vaganova method teacher or Vaganova-trained, or retired Bolshoi ballerina (even if it is so...) it doesn't mean they can be a good Vaganova method teachers. Vaganova and Bolshoi academies run special academic program to train their graduates for master degree in performing arts, but usually only after those graduates spend some time with a respectful dance company and get good amount of repertoire under their belts themselves. Not anybody can be a Vaganova teacher.. If someone claims to be a "certified Vaganova teacher" - email to Vaganova Academy in St Petersburg and just ask them directly to confirm. They usually respond promptly.

And please note, as Nikolai Tsiskaridze (currently a head of Vaganova) said: Vaganova graduation is only first tiny step into professional career of a dancer, it's just like learning alhapbet for further academic studies. The career is made into first 5 years in dance company after Vaganova school. After enrolling with Bolshoi or Mariinsky, for example.. But they usually accept only 2-3 newbies every year, no more. Some are successful, some are not so.. The rest of the crop should settle with Mikhailovsky or Stanislavsky (to my taste also they are alos the greatest companies, but with less international prestige for some reason) or flock outside of Russia.

Cold or warm, war or peace, but Vaganova in St Petersburg keeps producing greatest dancers in the world. Vaganova is pinnacle of classic ballet world, and modern and any dance style for that matter. It is a common place in a professional dance world: if you can dance Vaganova - you can dance anything, including even Hip Hop, swing, rocknroll and etc (but certainly only after some adjustment period). That's why all dance companies in a world are happy to hire any Vaganova graduated dancer from St Petersburg. Bolshoi academy is not too shabby too, but it's less traditional, less conservative and striving more toward powerful and more artistic/emotional expression in their students in the end of the program. I suggest everyone to be careful if someone claims to be a "Vaganova teacher". Russia didn't slip their quality of ballet, they evolving and only becoming better nowdays, but sometimes some people are masquerading under that brand to make sure quick buck. Some dance schools in US have Bolshoi or Vaganova stamp of quality, some don't. Just email and ask Russian academies directly through their websites to find out the truth... It is easy for foreigners to enroll into authetnic Bolshoi academy or Vaganova nowadays in Russia. There are already quite a lot of stories of success. A lot of Asians graduated, few Americans, some Europeans. Most of them have/had great careers. Ji-Young Kim first comes to mind. :thumbsup:

So "Daniil's mom / ex-ballerina" is not a level for balletic quality. I doubt that she is a Vaganova quality. And the most important thing, just a reminder for you guys: Zagotiva is NOT a ballerina, she is competitive figure skater showing some balletic interpretation in her choreography for FS competition. Figure skating is a sport, a very beautiful sport indeed, but still a sport. As an athlete Zagitova won fair and square. Give it a rest. You cant demand from her to be a perfect ballerina. Just like Osmand can't be a ballerina even remotely as well.

BTW there is a ballet thread in LA Cafe..

 

[chopinskate]

This is my favourite Don Quixote grand pas de deux that I've seen on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT8Zk41TulU

 

[Spirals for Miles]

I prefer this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOIZyYbidAU
But I am a hard-core Zakharova fan, so...

 

[Fresca]

BTW, comparing Evgenia Obraztsova with 15 y o Zagktova is hilarious.

That was in response to qwertyskates' comments that Alina's arm movements were in the Russian ballet style, choreographed in a manner that you see for Russian prima ballerinas and she was successful in executing some movements like a Russian prima ballerina would. I know, the comparison is hilarious.

I don't really get what do you demand from Zagotiva here? She is an athlete, not a ballerina. She was immitating and presenting interpretwtion of ballet ON SKATES, not trying to be like a pro ballerina.

So "Daniil's mom / ex-ballerina" is not a level for balletic quality. I doubt that she is a Vaganova quality. And the most important thing, just a reminder for you guys: Zagotiva is NOT a ballerina, she is competitive figure skater showing some balletic interpretation in her choreography for FS competition. Figure skating is a sport, a very beautiful sport indeed, but still a sport. As an athlete Zagitova won fair and square. Give it a rest. You cant demand from her to be a perfect ballerina. Just like Osmand can't be a ballerina even remotely as well.

Yes, figure skating is a sport but figure skating also has an artistic side. Figure skaters are athletes but they also need to be artists.

I know Alina is not a ballerina. I don't expect her to move like a professional ballerina. I certainly don't expect her to move like Evgenia Obratsova. However, as you said, she was imitating and presenting an interpretation of ballet on skates. I expect some balletic quality to her arm movements- grace, delicacy, control, softness in the elbows, proper shape of the arms - which I did not find. These are very basic.

Do I think Alina deserved to win? Yes I do. I thought they could have given it to Evgenia if they wanted to but I thought Alina's win was justified. But she won for skating a difficult program successfully, not for successful intepretation of ballet on skates. She won for her athletic ability, not her artistry.

 

[Eclair]

whole post.

she got the PCS as if she were an Evgenia Obraztsov on ice though.

If someone does a balletic skating program, then it should be legitimate to compare their movements to that of real ballet.

 

[cheerio2]

I thought Alina had better artistry than Evgenia. Evgenia had a lot of overwrought facial expressions, miming, and exaggerated arm movements. It all felt very theatrical but emotionless at the same time. Alina had more natural, understated movements and she had that sort of Russian elegance. Some people complained about her backloaded program, but I actually preferred it and thought the choreography went beautifully with the music. I could watch just her first two minutes with just her excellent step sequences over and over again. And of course the last half was amazing, with jumps that seemingly come out of nowhere with no preparation.

 

[Fresca]

she got the PCS as if she were an Evgenia Obraztsov on ice though.

True, true.

 

[Shayuki]

she got the PCS as if she were an Evgenia Obraztsov on ice though.

If someone does a balletic skating program, then it should be legitimate to compare their movements to that of real ballet.

I don't exactly agree. Especially considering the level of balletic ability you seem to expect out of a figure skater. Skaters can do all sorts of programs on all sorts of topics. You can perform a chaplin program and that doesn't mean you need to be heavily scrutinized and compared to acting of actual chaplin.

For a figure skater, I think that she stood out very positively in programs such as these. In comparison to other figure skaters performing ballet programs.

 

[Eclair]

I don't exactly agree. Especially considering the level of balletic ability you seem to expect out of a figure skater. Skaters can do all sorts of programs on all sorts of topics. You can perform a chaplin program and that doesn't mean you need to be heavily scrutinized and compared to acting of actual chaplin.

For a figure skater, I think that she stood out very positively in programs such as these. In comparison to other figure skaters performing ballet programs.

still you will compare a Chaplin program to what Chaplin actually is like. That's all I'm saying. Balletic programs should be allowed to be compared to real ballet. I didn't say anything about what level of balletic mastery I expect from a balletic skating program.

 

[Shayuki]

still you will compare a Chaplin program to what Chaplin actually is like. That's all I'm saying. Balletic programs should be allowed to be compared to real ballet. I didn't say anything about what level of balletic mastery I expect from a balletic skating program.

Well, that's good then. Because comparing to what a ballet dancer might know after 2 months of training is probably a reasonable expectation. Comparing to a top professional is just completely ridiculous and beyond reasonable.

 

[jaylee]

I don't exactly agree. Especially considering the level of balletic ability you seem to expect out of a figure skater. Skaters can do all sorts of programs on all sorts of topics. You can perform a chaplin program and that doesn't mean you need to be heavily scrutinized and compared to acting of actual chaplin.

For a figure skater, I think that she stood out very positively in programs such as these. In comparison to other figure skaters performing ballet programs.

I have no problem with Zagitova's Olympic win. But her Don Quixote program absolutely pales in comparison to this one by another figure skater -- who's also Russian, btw. There's a significant difference in each skater's "balletic ability," and how each skater finishes their moves and interprets the music.

 

[Moment]

I have no problem with Zagitova's Olympic win. But her Don Quixote program absolutely pales in comparison to this one by another figure skater -- who's also Russian, btw. There's a significant difference in each skater's "balletic ability," and how each skater finishes their moves and interprets the music.

Jaw. Dropped. What a talent. Such a shame she couldn't continue competing.

 

[Shayuki]

I have no problem with Zagitova's Olympic win. But her Don Quixote program absolutely pales in comparison to this one by another figure skater -- who's also Russian, btw. There's a significant difference in each skater's "balletic ability," and how each skater finishes their moves and interprets the music.

Not arguing that. Alexandra Proklova was my favorite figure skater at the time. Still heartbroken about her career-ending injury.

 

[Fresca]

I don't exactly agree. Especially considering the level of balletic ability you seem to expect out of a figure skater.

For a figure skater, I think that she stood out very positively in programs such as these. In comparison to other figure skaters performing ballet programs.

As I said, I don't think the level I'm expecting is too much - I'm asking for the basic aesthetics of ballet to appear in the arm movements. Other skaters have exhibited such balletic qualities- Mao Asada, Yuna Kim, Yulia Lipnitskaya, Gabriella Papadakis - and Alina is getting PCS as though she were performing at that level.

 

[tars]

I have no problem with Zagitova's Olympic win. But her Don Quixote program absolutely pales in comparison to this one by another figure skater -- who's also Russian, btw. There's a significant difference in each skater's "balletic ability," and how each skater finishes their moves and interprets the music.

Eye opener indeed.
Still, I adore "Red Ballerina".

 

[Alexz]

she got the PCS as if she were an Evgenia Obraztsov on ice though.

If someone does a balletic skating program, then it should be legitimate to compare their movements to that of real ballet.

Obraztsova would get 10 times less PCS, because she can't skate like Zagi does.

 

[chopinskate]

Obraztsova would get 10 times less PCS, because she can't skate like Zagi does.

Now don't be too sure about that.

 

[Mathman]

I have no problem with Zagitova's Olympic win. But her Don Quixote program absolutely pales in comparison to this one by another figure skater -- who's also Russian, btw.

That was great. My two takeaways were

(1) Short Programs are much more enjoyable than long programs. (For one thing, they are shorter -- always leave them wanting more, instaed of saying, "Is she still out there?")

(2) If you want to be a ballerina on ice, put your big combo in the first 30 seconds and don't try to crowd all your jumps into the second half.

 

[Alexz]

Since there are few ballet buffs here and while we are on the subject of ballet... sort of.. let me remind you about new tv-version of Flames of Paris in movie theater around the world. Sunday, March 4, tomorrow at 12:55 p.m. Price is usually few bucks more than regular movie ticket. Some of your local movie theater will be definitely broadcasting it from Bolshoi, enter your zip code here: https://www.fathomevents.com/events/bolshoi1718-flames-of-paris

Trailer of a new version, it's really an aesthetic treat: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0SluLEmQbR8