2018 US Championships Sr. Ladies FS

[reneerose]

I'm honestly in favor of a skate-off between Karen and Ashley at 4CCs for the third spot because I think there were too many confounding factors with how their scoring went here (it wasn't awful but it was a little odd). Everyone is posting about the discrepencies between PCS scores internationally vs here, I wonder if Karen got a bit of a home-town hero boost, both have made recent program switches, and I don't think either is head and shoulders above the other right now. USFSA's preference/bitterness/whatever needs to be taken out of the picture and just let them skate in front of international judges and let that tell the difference between them.

If USFSA decides to go with the podium I'm down with that but if they really don't know how to split them, make them duke it out again. Let Karen get healthy and give Ashley more time with La La Land (Which honestly I don't have a lot of pity for her in the "it's only a month old" excuse. If she had done what she did in 2014 and what Karen did this year and started with the new program and then switched back cause it wasn't working I'd understand.)

4CCs is normally the consolation competition for those who weren't selected for the Olympic team though. On the other hand, maybe a tie-breaker skate-off showdown outside of 4CC would be an unprecedented fun event for fans.

 

[MsLayback]

Oh, it was not "poor me" it was "angry me." Look for it on twitter.

http://olympics.nbcsports.com/2018/01/05/ashley-wagner-figure-skating-nationals-comments-video/

 

[taifan]

Sorry to keep coming back here, but when will they be officially announcing the teams?

I believe I just saw 8 am Eastern on the Today Show Saturday morning - the TV guide says the US Women's Figure skating team will be introduced.

 

[Sophia_D]

What an exciting evening. I am so happy for Mirai that I was crying, too. I was also very happy for Karen. Way to bring it when it really counts.

Someone asked up-thread (my apologies for not remembering who) why the USFSA might have been less supportive of Ashley. I think the simple answer is consistency. She was never the most artistic or most elegant skater, but, of the USA women, she was the most consistent over time. But now Bradie has assumed that spot, and she is actually more consistent than Ashley is right now. Mirai has demonstrated that she deserves to go, too, so the only person who really might get bumped off of the podium is Karen. For the third US lady, I think sending a young talent and letting her have that experience makes a lot of sense.

I actually thought Tara and Johnny did a good job, but I think their target audience is the casual fan, not the incredible experts found on this site.

 

[Jammers]

Wagner in no way deserves to be put on the team. The top 3 should be the team time to turn the page and send younger skaters who can land rotated jumps. Ashley simply couldn't keep coming from behind like she's done for years and it cost her.

 

[skatesofgold]

Exactly. The first time in 18 years, the current gymnastics Olympic team contained members from the previous Olympic team.

Such longevity

Okay, I can see that you're not going to listen to reason. I'm done. Teenagers shouldn't have to do the time if they're good enough. To be the best, you have to beat the best. I'm sure adult athletes know that.

 

[zschultz1986]

Honestly the two who brought it tonight, that were in contention for the Olympics, were Bradie and Mirai, and it showed in their performances. You can say what you want (and most of it is correct) about Bradie's junior level presentation/skating skills and Mirai's lack of connection to the music in parts, but they did what they had to do.

Other than that, flip a coin. Karen and Ashley are basically in the same boat, and they put themselves there with the way they skated. Was the judging a little funky? Sure, it always is though. For me, it's too close to call between Ashley and Karen, based on the way they skated. It's sucks for one of them, and I'm glad I'm not the one deciding that.

Edit: If I were to be pushed for a pick, my immediate gut-reaction is Ashley, as I love Diva Wagner and she has been doing some of the heavy lifting for the US Ladies for almost a decade now. Her case is hurt because the person she'd be throwing off is another former US Champ who placed higher than her at the previous year's Worlds.

 

[evangeline]

This is the biggest part of the technical marks, and the biggest disparity in scores is also revealed here. For the sake of conserving space, I'll only list the jumps that I felt were judged unfairly towards Chen.

Did you actually watch the performances, or did you just read the protocols? I ask because your examples don't show any judging bias favoring Chen at all if you actually watch and compare what Chen and Wagner put on the ice. For example:

Short Program

Triple triple: Wagner did 3F3T<, Chen did 3Lz3T<. While Wagner received -1.9 GOE, Chen only got -1.4 GOE. Why? Both were underrotated, and I dont see a reason why Chen's underrotation was better than Wagners.

Chen's 3Lz-3T< deserved higher marks than Wagner's 3F-3T< because: (1) Chen's 3Lz had much better height and distance than Wagner's 3F, and (2) Wagner had a slight 2-foot on her 3T<, while Chen did not.

 

[deneuved]

I feel like most people are only suggesting this "skate-off" idea in order to give Wagner another chance to win. If Wagner had eked out that bronze here, I can't imagine everyone would want to send her off to 4CC to prove her Olympic worth, and Wagner herself wouldn't be thrilled in that hypothetical scenario, either.

No, I think the problem is the unclear selection criteria. If the US federation had said, "we'll be sending the top 3 at nationals" it would have been absolutely fine. After all, they can decide about the rules for the Olympic spots themselves. As it is now, what do they base their selection on? Not sure if nationals only is a good criterion. Karen beat Ashley in Worlds last year. But Karen also has abysmal results at all her other competitions. Maybe a point-based system, like we had here in Germany, would have been a better option.

 

[TontoK]

The Skating Lesson chimes in via Twitter:

"If the US goes by the criteria, Karen beats Ashley across all Tier 1 events. That is tough to argue."

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

I feel like most people are only suggesting this "skate-off" idea in order to give Wagner another chance to win. If Wagner had eked out that bronze here, I can't imagine everyone would want to send her off to 4CC to prove her Olympic worth, and Wagner herself wouldn't be thrilled in that hypothetical scenario, either.

I think people just think it's what is fair based on the judging. If the situation were reversed and it was Ashley who was given the nod over Karen with a weaker performance due to suspect judging, the same suggestion would be made in Karen's favor. At least from me anyway.

 

[readernick]

No, I think the problem is the unclear selection criteria. If the US federation had said, "we'll be sending the top 3 at nationals" it would have been absolutely fine. After all, they can decide about the rules for the Olympic sports themselves. As it is now, what do they base their selection on? Not sure if nationals only is a good criterion. Karen beat Ashley in Worlds last year. But Karen also has abysmal results at all her other competitions. Maybe a point-based system, like we had here in Germany, would have been a better option.

Point based system is a good idea.

 

[Amer]

Thanks!

 

[MsLayback]

The simple truth of the matter is Ashley has no one to blame but herself she did not put in the work. She was too caught up in the hype and didn't stop to think that I need to train the challenge of skating at the elite level is there is always someone behind you and you better work twice as hard as they are if you want to stay at the top. Also Ashley did herself no favors with her little scene at Skate America I don't want to rehash it but her comments afterwards really were a smack in the face to USFSa and skate america

 

[readernick]

The Skating Lesson chimes in via Twitter:

"If the US goes by the criteria, Karen beats Ashley across all Tier 1 events. That is tough to argue."

Yes, they are going to send Karen. We know.

 

[PyeongChang2018]

Exactly. The first time in 18 years, the current gymnastics Olympic team contained members from the previous Olympic team.

Such longevity

Oi...

From the 2008 team: Chellsie Memmel was 20 and simply missed making the 2004 Olympic team after doing quite well in 2003 Worlds. Alicia Sacramone was also 20 and missed making the 2004 Olympic team.

From the 2004 team: Mohini Bhardwaj was 25 and had previously gone to 1997 Worlds and competed quite well in NCAA. Annia Hatch was 26 but previously competed for Cuba in 1993 at Worlds. She could not compete other times, even though she qualified (to the 1996 Olympics for example) because of a lack of funding.

Your comments are entirely baseless and quite frankly ignorant.

 

[Amer]

http://olympics.nbcsports.com/2018/01/05/ashley-wagner-figure-skating-nationals-comments-video/

Thanks!

 

[nmichaelf]

I completely agree with you. We are definitely in the minority but Ashley’s program, in my opinion, did not have the transitions that Mariah’s did. Mariah also looked much more confident and faster across the ice (I wasn’t there so I don’t know about the fastness for sure).

 

[frida80]

Right but Amber was no better in the free. or are you saying it's out of the question that Ting would go because USFSA only considers the juniors who compete senior?

Unless the juniors have massive scores like Gracie did, they often pick from seniors. I personally think it’s stupid to send someone that hasn’t competed as junior in years to JW, as opposed to someone that is a junior and competed internaationally as a junior when they have practically the SAME score!

Ting should go! Amber only has a slightly higher score because of the Choreographical sequence, which isn’t included in a junior program!

 

[reneerose]

No, I think the problem is the unclear selection criteria. If the US federation had said, "we'll be sending the top 3 at nationals" it would have been absolutely fine. After all, they can decide about the rules for the Olympic spots themselves. As it is now, what do they base their selection on? Not sure if nationals only is a good criterion. Karen beat Ashley in Worlds last year. But Karen also has abysmal results at all her other competitions. Maybe a point-based system, like we had here in Germany, would have been a better option.

So basically, a cumulative point total for the whole competitive skating season? Strictly mathematical? It used to be the top 2 or 3 finishes at Nationals in the old days, but the way the IOC more strictly doles out Olympic slots these days to countries, it's made the whole trip to the Olympics thing an even tougher elusive prize to win, IMHO.