3A-3T vs 3Lz-3Lo

[chopinskate]

Which is harder? This is still in the realm of discussion, as 3A-2T still gets fewer points than 3Lz-3T. 3A-3T gets more points than the 3Lz-3Lo, but is the tagged on edge jump difficult enough to surpass a 3A done first?

(Scores under current rules.)

To forestall conversation about edge vs toe jumpers -- consider a strong jumper of both, like Ito.

 

[frida80]

Obviously a 3A is the hardest triple jump. However anyone can add a 2T to another jump. It's very common and not difficult. The real difficulty is doing another clean 3A. So naturally a 3A+3T scores higher than a 3Lz+3Lo.

 

[yume]

Obviously 3A-3T is harder than 3lz-3lo. 3A only is harder than most of if not all the 3-3s done in competition. So even with only a 2T at the back, i think that 3A-2T is harder than 3lz-3T. Just see, how many ladies in history have done 3A-2T and how many 3lz-3T?

 

[chopinskate]

I don't think I'd agree with the 3A being harder than all 3-3s. Perfect technique 3F/3Lz-3T/3Lo are all probably harder.

I'd say very few ladies have done perfect technique 3Lz-3T. But I do think it's worth debating which is harder.

 

[Danibellerika]

Obviously 3A-3T is harder than 3lz-3lo. 3A only is harder than most of if not all the 3-3s done in competition. So even with only a 2T at the back, i think that 3A-2T is harder than 3lz-3T. Just see, how many ladies in history have done 3A-2T and how many 3lz-3T?

What about a solo 3A compared to a 3lz-3t? What about a 3A (and 3A-2t) compared to a 3lz-3lo?

 

[chopinskate]

I think that the technique needed on combos shouldn't be ignored. A 3Lz and a 3F are easier than 3A, sure, but for the combo, you need to maintain the correct alignment/posture/knee bend, need to have flow out of the first jump, need a snap, need a sense of balance (especially for the loop combos). I think I'd place 3Lz/3F-3T/3Lo combos over solo 3As. And at least 3Lz/3F-3Lo combos over 3A-2T.

 

[yume]

What about a solo 3A compared to a 3lz-3t? What about a 3A (and 3A-2t) compared to a 3lz-3lo?

I think that solo 3A is harder than 3lz-3T. We've seen just 8 ladies land 3A in competition but can't even count the ladies who have landed 3lz-3T in competition. Combos are not always harder than solo jumps, especially if they are 3A and quads.
And i think that 3A is harder than 3lz-3lo too. Sure, the 3lo at the end is extremely hard to rotate but i think that skaters can be more close to rotate a 3lo combo than 3A.
It's doable, but hardly consistently doable because skaters need a technique which is not too hard for the hips.
I'm more interested about 3F-3lo vs 3lz-3T.

 

[schizoanalyst]

It’s a hard comparison to make. The difficulty here is that now a lot of the elite skaters can tag on +3Ts to almost anything - sometimes how they get the second jump is wonky, but it’s still done. But still, you will have to land the 3A well with decent control, position and speed to tag on the +3T. I mean, Nagasu’s 3A, even when done it’s best in practice, would have no hope of getting a +3T on it (this is not a criticism of Nagasu who showed a lot of tenacity btw - just an observation). But then we are mostly debating the difficultly of landing a good 3A itself, rather than the difficultly of the combination as much. Whereas adding the +3Lo is obviously very difficult for the usual reasons - especially to land it with any flow out.

My general view is that the 3A+3T>3Lz+3Lo in BV, just because of the difficulty of landing a good enough 3A to properly tag on a triple toe. However, the difficulty gap is small enough that the point differentials between the two jumps should be small enough that an excellent 3Lz+3Lo with great lutz technique (a rarity really) and a wonderful pop with great flow on the +3Lo should beat out a middling 3A+3T, whereas under the current system a perfect (+3 GOE) 3Lz+3Lo would score slightly less than a 3A+3T with +0.5 GOE. The gap isn’t that large.

This topic does expose one of the current problems in the scoring system that +3Lo combos are plainly under-valued. Given the difficulty of the combination, you really accrue very few points across both programs. Zagitova, for example, get’s a little less than 2 total points if she replaced her 3Lz+3Lo in both the short and the long with a 3Lz+3T. It’s worth even less when you consider that, in general, most skaters will get lower GOE on a +3Lo combos. With such meager incentive to do such a difficult and risky jump, it’s unsurprising that we see so few attempts - it’s just not worth it to even bother training it for most skaters. I don’t think we’ll ever see another 3A+3Lo after Abt did it (unless the system changes)- there is virtually no incentive to do it, even though that jump’s difficulty is insane.

 

[Danibellerika]

I think that solo 3A is harder than 3lz-3T. We've seen just 8 ladies land 3A in competition but can't even count the ladies who have landed 3lz-3T in competition. Combos are not always harder than solo jumps, especially if they are 3A and quads.
And i think that 3A is harder than 3lz-3lo too. Sure, the 3lo at the end is extremely hard to rotate but i think that skaters can be more close to rotate a 3lo combo than 3A.
It's doable, but hardly consistently doable because skaters need a technique which is not too hard for the hips.
I'm more interested about 3F-3lo vs 3lz-3T.

I'm trying to think how many ladies have done a 3lz/3lo compared to a 3a through time. I can only think of Slutskaya and Zags and I heard Miki did them. I guess Eteri's lot is doing them now, but they're doing 3a and quads too so... I guess before this current era (like prior to and including 2014), I'd like a tally for comparison.

It’s a hard comparison to make. The difficulty here is that now a lot of the elite skaters can tag on +3Ts to almost anything - sometimes how they get the second jump is wonky, but it’s still done. But still, you will have to land the 3A well with decent control, position and speed to tag on the +3T. I mean, Nagasu’s 3A, even when done it’s best in practice, would have no hope of getting a +3T on it (this is not a criticism of Nagasu who showed a lot of tenacity btw - just an observation). But then we are mostly debating the difficultly of landing a good 3A itself, rather than the difficultly of the combination as much. Whereas adding the +3Lo is obviously very difficult for the usual reasons - especially to land it with any flow out.

My general view is that the 3A+3T>3Lz+3Lo in BV, just because of the difficulty of landing a good enough 3A to properly tag on a triple toe. However, the difficulty gap is small enough that the point differentials between the two jumps should be small enough that an excellent 3Lz+3Lo with great lutz technique (a rarity really) and a wonderful pop with great flow on the +3Lo should beat out a middling 3A+3T, whereas under the current system a perfect (+3 GOE) 3Lz+3Lo would score slightly less than a 3A+3T with +0.5 GOE. The gap isn’t that large.

This topic does expose one of the current problems in the scoring system that +3Lo combos are plainly under-valued. Given the difficulty of the combination, you really accrue very few points across both programs. Zagitova, for example, get’s a little less than 2 total points if she replaced her 3Lz+3Lo in both the short and the long with a 3Lz+3T. It’s worth even less when you consider that, in general, most skaters will get lower GOE on a +3Lo combos. With such meager incentive to do such a difficult and risky jump, it’s unsurprising that we see so few attempts - it’s just not worth it to even bother training it for most skaters. I don’t think we’ll ever see another 3A+3Lo after Abt did it (unless the system changes)- there is virtually no incentive to do it, even though that jump’s difficulty is insane.

I bring you Mirai's 3A/3T/2T/2Lo:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BaM3jYtFKsL/

Granted the 3T is likely a usual Mirai UR but I don't think it's because of the axel.

 

[yume]

I'm trying to think how many ladies have done a 3lz/3lo compared to a 3a through time. I can only think of Slutskaya and Zags and I heard Miki did them. I guess Eteri's lot is doing them now, but they're doing 3a and quads too so... I guess before this current era (like prior to and including 2014), I'd like a tally for comparison.

I remember only Slutskaya, Ando (who landed one at olympics) and Sotnikova before 2014. After there is Higuchi, Yuna Aoki, Trusova in juniors. I only talk about international competitions.
Must be others that i don't remember/know

 

[Izabela]

I also generally think that a 3A-3T combo is harder than 3Lz-3T/3Lo. And it's not really because of what's tagged in 3A in comparison to +3Lo for a 3Lz, it's simply that it's a difficult jump to do a combo to begin with.

On the other hand, 3lz-3lo/3T are combos that skaters can execute easier in relation to a 3A-3T, but rarely executed with ideal position. And it's right to place them much higher in comparison to a solo 3A. Sure, more skaters can do the 3Lz-3T/3Lo combo than they could do a 3A, but rarely we find skaters who can do so with great air position, great flow on the 3T, deep knee bend, and pop. So for me, if we are talking about creating a technically competitive jump layout, it's better for a 3A to be done solo, and to have a 3Lz-3Lo or +3T as your combo.

 

[chopinskate]

Didn't Arakawa practice 3Lz-3Lo at one point?

 

[bobbob]

why not, 3A-3Lo?

 

[chopinskate]

why not, 3A-3Lo?

Well, for one it's for sure the hardest 3-3, no question. For another, I think only Alexander Abt has ever attempted it in competition.

 

[bobbob]

Per the original question, definitely 3A-3T. 3Lz-3Lo a lot of ladies can do, few if any can do 3A-3T. As for men, more do 3A-3T than 3Lz-3T--true, but they could easily do 3Lz-3Lo too if they trained it but since they have quads, the value of doing a loop combination is nonexistent.

 

[chopinskate]

3Lz-3Lo a lot of ladies can do, few if any can do 3A-3T.

That's not true though? I'm not arguing here which is difficult, but I don't believe I can name a female skater who has been able to land either consistently with perfect technique. Slutskaya used to UR, I don't think I've seen Arakawa's attempts, Ando dropped it because I think she wasn't able to get the rotation on her -3Lo consistent (and was dinged by << as was the case then), Sotnikova flutzed, Zagitova doesn't have perfect technique on either. OTOH, Ito used to land 3A-3T in practices, and Kihira has landed them in competition with (as far as I know) good technique.

 

[draqq]

For women, I would say the 3A+3T just because landing the 3A with full rotation is difficult enough. For men where the 3A is expected, I would say the 3Lz+3Lo is close to being as difficult as the 3A+3T. Apart from the +3Lo combo being so rare nowadays in part because they're undervalued in the system, +3Lo combos are hard to land with great flow-out (so getting high GOE is tough), have higher frequency of being called underrotated, and requires nigh-perfect alignment in the landing of the first jump -- whereas +3T combos can be done from many off-angles from the first jump so long as the skater has enough power.

 

[Izabela]

What about Wakaba's 3Lz-3Lo in terms of technique?

Maybe we can modify the question to which combo can be executed harder with better technique? Because then yes, it would be more difficult to answer. But the difference really is how can you do a 3A to tag it with 3T vs how can you do a 3lz-3Lo as a combo with a perfect technique. So I guess the point of debate is: 3A vs. +3Lo ?

 

[chopinskate]

Maybe we can modify the question to which combo can be executed harder with better technique? Because then yes, it would be more difficult to answer. But the difference really is how can you do a 3A to tag it with 3T vs how you can do a 3lz-3Lo as a combo with a perfect technique. So I guess the point of debate is: 3A vs. +3Lo ?

Oh, the premise is already "with good/perfect technique", I'd say. Which is why I think there's no easy answer (as schizoanalyst pointed out), but it sure is open for debate.

ETA: Haven't found Higuchi's 3Lz-3Lo.

 

[Izabela]

Here: https://twitter.com/Meifil/status/711119128480849920 She did it in practice. I couldn't find a better clip.

Maybe we can have a list of the problems skaters have for those who landed the 3A-3T, and for those who did the 3Lz-3Lo to have a better picture?