Judging Critiques/Continuation of Plushenko’s Allegations

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't see how today's definition of a Flip is pretty clear... if we combine them with the GOE bullets. These are two separate things unfortunately:

1. Flip takes off an inside edge - in order to emphasise the edge, skaters might try to go deep into the inside edge.

2. Very good height and distance/Good body position from take off to landing - the mechanics of the Flip are such that when you keep the edge as shallow as possible, you maximize the force you get out of the toe tap, and transfer momentum into the air most efficiently (bigger Flip jump). Moreover, the shallow edge keeps you on as straight an entry as possible, which allows a much more controlled axis in the air, whereas the deep inside edge entry is usually more curved, leading to a loss of control in the air in comparison.

IF the point is to get GOE bullets, then the Flip should indeed be taught off a shallow edge... but seemingly the Flip jumps that tend to go off shallow insides get called (!) wrongly sometimes, which leads to lower GOE even with better aesthetics. The judges instead go with jumps with deeper inside edges, since they don't get any calls, even if they have worse aesthetics. This indeed turns into a problem - we have now defined the Flip jump based only off a deep inside edge, even though the better Flip jumps are off shallow inside edges!

It's not difficult for me to see personally that pre-CoP the definition of a Flip allowed flat/shallow outside edges. Since the difference between shallow outside/flat/shallow inside is very little, and again the momentum/quality produced is greater.

ETA: And yes... Obvious Lip is Ando's: https://youtu.be/ibtOU8mAHCo?t=103 Fernandez changes to an outside as he's already vaulting. Ando's edge deepens along the entry curve, before she even taps.

Agreed, but pre-COP judges were very lax when it came to deductions. Eg They wouldn’t have further deducted Shoma’s loop for being on the quarter, they would have just deducted for the fall.

Even post-COP you didn’t really get GoE reduction for an obvious wrong edge (see Arakawa’s flip in her 2006 Olympic FS).

What bizarro world is this though?! It is absolutely wrong to say “a slight outside edge” should ever be regarded as acceptable/correct flip edge. Because historical judging panels didn’t account for it (on a scale of 6.0 a judge isn’t going to deduct for the less “obvious errors” like a wrong edge call, or even URs) is negligible. Sarah Hughes has URs in her FS but because, like edge calls, they “looked” clean the historical judges gave it a slide. But today she would get deducted for those.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Agreed, but pre-COP judges were very lax when it came to deductions. Eg They wouldn’t have further deducted Shoma’s loop for being on the quarter, they would have just deducted for the fall.

Even post-COP you didn’t really get GoE reduction for an obvious wrong edge (see Arakawa’s flip in her 2006 Olympic FS).

What bizarro world is this though?! It is absolutely wrong to say “a slight outside edge” should ever be regarded as acceptable/correct flip edge. Because historical judging panels didn’t account for it (on a scale of 6.0 a judge isn’t going to deduct for the less “obvious errors” like a wrong edge call, or even URs) is negligible. Sarah Hughes has URs in her FS but because, like edge calls, they “looked” clean the historical judges gave it a slide. But today she would get deducted for those.

Jump judging should always be done to the best technology available. If that means it gets more stingy then so be it. (of course pre-rotation is a different bag of marbles, but definitely in terms of UR and edges - I think everybody can agree with this).

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Let’s be honest here: certain people just pick on Shoma for getting silver because Javier happened to be team Orser, and Shoma spoiled their dream 1-2 finish.

Had Fernández happened to have had any other coach, certain people wouldn’t have bothered to whisper a word of outrage.

I've never seen people criticising Javier's backward takeoff on axel, forwards takeoff on flip and lutz, and his more than 1/2 PR (nearly 3/4) on toeloop.

Not seen anything on Matteo Rizzo or the majority of the other senior skaters who have similar technique.

People always pick and choose what they critique. Nothing new here.
Everybody's definition of "textbook technique" is the technique their favourite skater performs. Also nothing new.

People need consistency with their PR views. They need to stop hating on Shoma alone for something which their favourite skaters do.

 

[Skatesocs]

What bizarro world is this though?! It is absolutely wrong to say “a slight outside edge” should ever be regarded as acceptable/correct flip edge.

Point out where I said that in my post, and then we will continue.

Agreed, but pre-COP judges were very lax when it came to deductions. Eg They wouldn’t have further deducted Shoma’s loop for being on the quarter, they would have just deducted for the fall.

Was only talking about mechanics of a Flip and how GOE scoring and tech calling is killing correct technique, sorry. Not interested in how the Olympics should/would have shook out, under which system and according to whose opinions.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Agreed, but pre-COP judges were very lax when it came to deductions. Eg They wouldn’t have further deducted Shoma’s loop for being on the quarter, they would have just deducted for the fall.

Pre-CoP Shoma would have got nothing for his Loop. Instead, in the 2018 system and without the < call applied, he got 7 points for it. That jump wasn't on the quarter either, it was clearly under, should be obvious to see on the replay.

What bizarro world is this though?! It is absolutely wrong to say “a slight outside edge” should ever be regarded as acceptable/correct flip edge.

No it isn't, that's the mechanics of the jump, and how it's been done for ages. You aren't really supposed to be on much of an inside edge. It should be a straight edge, so if it tilts slightly to the outside when leaving the ice, then whatever. Hence why there was talk about flutzes for a long time, whereas nobody at all cared if someone went slightly outside on their flip. Only the severe Flip edge switches were ever regarded as an error.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

No it isn't, that's the mechanics of the jump, and how it's been done for ages. You aren't really supposed to be on much of an inside edge. It should be a straight edge, so if it tilts slightly to the outside when leaving the ice, then whatever. Hence why there was talk about flutzes for a long time, whereas nobody at all cared if someone went slightly outside on their flip. Only the severe Flip edge switches were ever regarded as an error.

Oh wow, lol. While it's not the most egregious lip, the mechanics of Javier's flip are simply not correct nor is it emblematic of "how it's been done for ages". Not only does his left foot lean onto an outside edge, also upon takeoff his left blade turns to the side and the heel is the last thing to leave the ice (this often seen in lutzes so the skater can maintain the outside edge as much as possible because shifting weight to the ball of the foot pushes the edge inwards). In a proper flip jump, you typically see the the ball of the foot/toe pick as the last part of the blade to leave the ice, and this creates the inside edge (or at worst a flat) indicative of a flip jump.

You're entitled to your own opinion, but a flip jump that transfers to even a slight outside edge is a wrong takeoff. I hope there aren't any coaches or tech people out there who would actually tell a skater looking to optimize their technique that a flip with an outside edge takeoff (even a slight one) is acceptable, the same way people shouldn't advocate a lutz with an inside edge (even a slight one) as acceptable.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Oh wow, lol. While it's not the most egregious lip, the mechanics of Javier's flip are simply not correct nor is it emblematic of "how it's been done for ages".

The other aspects of his Flip are not totally textbook (he pre-rotates a full 1/2 turn, when ideally it should be less), but a slightly outside edge for the tiniest amount of time is indeed something that's been common on the jump for ages.

Some people with really good skating skills, like Kurt Browning, were even doing it from a deeper outside edge (with a quick entry) and nobody batted an eye. Now, I'm not saying that degree of difference should go without penalty in the modern age, but it shows that an inside edge was never the focus of the Flip jump, and it wasn't taught as "you must stay on an inside edge to do this jump". The jump was taught as doing a turn or step in the rotating direction and picking in, that's what made it a Flip. Whereas the Lutz was about taking off in the opposing direction of the rotation (which inherently means a solid outside edge, if doing it properly).

The superficial definition of "the Lutz takes off on an outside edge, the Flip takes off on an inside edge" is just something that was invented to quickly distinguish them in short conversation and on paper. The degree of how the edges are supposed to be used on these jumps is not the same thing at all. The official definitions need to be given more clarity.

 

[Jeanie19]

The other aspects of his Flip are not totally textbook (he pre-rotates a full 1/2 turn, when ideally it should be less), but a slightly outside edge for the tiniest amount of time is indeed something that's been common on the jump for ages.

Some people with really good skating skills, like Kurt Browning, were even doing it from a deeper outside edge (with a quick entry) and nobody batted an eye. Now, I'm not saying that degree of difference should go without penalty in the modern age, but it shows that an inside edge was never the focus of the Flip jump, and it wasn't taught as "you must stay on an inside edge to do this jump". The jump was taught as doing a turn or step in the rotating direction and picking in, that's what made it a Flip. Whereas the Lutz was about taking off in the opposing direction of the rotation (which inherently means a solid outside edge, if doing it properly).

The superficial definition of "the Lutz takes off on an outside edge, the Flip takes off on an inside edge" is just something that was invented to quickly distinguish them in short conversation and on paper. The degree of how the edges are supposed to be used on these jumps is not the same thing at all. The official definitions need to be given more clarity.

What skaters have a correct Flip? Everyone talks about Lutz, but never Flip.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The other aspects of his Flip are not totally textbook (he pre-rotates a full 1/2 turn, when ideally it should be less), but a slightly outside edge for the tiniest amount of time is indeed something that's been common on the jump for ages.

Some people with really good skating skills, like Kurt Browning, were even doing it from a deeper outside edge (with a quick entry) and nobody batted an eye. Now, I'm not saying that degree of difference should go without penalty in the modern age, but it shows that an inside edge was never the focus of the Flip jump, and it wasn't taught as "you must stay on an inside edge to do this jump". The jump was taught as doing a turn or step in the rotating direction and picking in, that's what made it a Flip. Whereas the Lutz was about taking off in the opposing direction of the rotation (which inherently means a solid outside edge, if doing it properly).

The superficial definition of "the Lutz takes off on an outside edge, the Flip takes off on an inside edge" is just something that was invented to quickly distinguish them in short conversation and on paper. The degree of how the edges are supposed to be used on these jumps is not the same thing at all. The official definitions need to be given more clarity.

Kurt Browning is arguably my fave skater ever (certainly top 3) but he had a terrible flip - he would jab his pick in sideways and the edge was not clear. (3 min mark). https://youtu.be/jbFPrXEPRe0

Using his flip, of all people’s, as a means of supporting your argument that historically he did it and got away with it, is a stretch.

 

[Skatesocs]

Some people with really good skating skills, like Kurt Browning, were even doing it from a deeper outside edge (with a quick entry) and nobody batted an eye. Now, I'm not saying that degree of difference should go without penalty in the modern age, but it shows that an inside edge was never the focus of the Flip jump, and it wasn't taught as "you must stay on an inside edge to do this jump". The jump was taught as doing a turn or step in the rotating direction and picking in, that's what made it a Flip. Whereas the Lutz was about taking off in the opposing direction of the rotation (which inherently means a solid outside edge, if doing it properly).

The superficial definition of "the Lutz takes off on an outside edge, the Flip takes off on an inside edge" is just something that was invented to quickly distinguish them in short conversation and on paper. The degree of how the edges are supposed to be used on these jumps is not the same thing at all. The official definitions need to be given more clarity.

There's perhaps some basis to looking at historical executions, but wouldn't you agree that a shallow inside edge is how it should be taught? We know mechanics a lot better now than during Browning's time. A shallow inside edge does help to maximize force. Nothing wrong with emphasising correctness of technique and quality.

I will agree though that flat edges and shallow outside edges shouldn't be getting the same penalties as moderate outside edges or deep outside edges on the Flip. The first two are still mechanically close to a real, quality Flip. The other two are farther away. If a judge wants, they can give the "incorrect edge (no sign)" deduction for flat edges and shallow outside edges.

I would also point out that doing a correct LFO 3 turn makes it impossible to Lip. It sets you on a shallow back inside by the time you pick in, exactly how it should be. If someone's noticing "an outside edge" after the skater picks in for the vault/during the vault, that's not the same thing at all. You're just noticing the skater getting off the ice from what is a rather unnatural position for the foot.

What skaters have a correct Flip? Everyone talks about Lutz, but never Flip.

Yuna Kim and Midori Ito, of the women. I always liked Daisuke Takahashi's Flip from the men too. Currently think Yan Han has the best 3F.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

There's perhaps some basis to looking at historical executions, but wouldn't you agree that a shallow inside edge is how it should be taught? We know mechanics a lot better now than during Browning's time. A shallow inside edge does help to maximize force. Nothing wrong with emphasising correctness of technique and quality.

I will agree though that flat edges and shallow outside edges shouldn't be getting the same penalties as moderate outside edges or deep outside edges on the Flip. The first two are still mechanically close to a real, quality Flip. The other two are farther away. If a judge wants, they can give the "incorrect edge (no sign)" deduction for flat edges and shallow outside edges.

I would also point out that doing a correct LFO 3 turn makes it impossible to Lip. It sets you on a shallow back inside by the time you pick in, exactly how it should be. If someone's noticing "an outside edge" after the skater picks in for the vault/during the vault, that's not the same thing at all. You're just noticing the skater getting off the ice from what is a rather unnatural position for the foot.


Yuna Kim and Midori Ito, of the women. I always liked Daisuke Takahashi's Flip from the men too. Currently think Yan Han has the best 3F.

Jason Brown does flip nicely I think

 

[Jeanie19]

Wow Yan Han has a great flip and axel, skates fast and has good skating skills. No wonder, I like him so much.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Wow Yan Han has a great flip and axel, skates fast and has good skating skills. No wonder, I like him so much.

I would like him if he had Shoma Uno's jumps just based on his level of kneebend and body-movement with the music interpretation level he's at.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Yuna Kim and Midori Ito, of the women. I always liked Daisuke Takahashi's Flip from the men too. Currently think Yan Han has the best 3F.

Hm, i started watching figure skating with Yu Na, and i remember pretty clear that some of her flips were judged as flat by the tech panel. I wouldn't say there is only one right approach/'technique' for the flip jump (or lutz for that matter), just that some flips (lutzes) may look better in terms of execution with one approach than with another (and being rewarded more in GOE as a result).

 

[Skatesocs]

Hm, i started watching figure skating with Yu Na, and i remember pretty clear that some of her flips are judged as flat by the tech panel.

I do not see how this disagrees with what I said.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I do not see how this disagrees with what I said.

Well, according to the judges, you can't say Yu Na had correct flip in general. But some of her many jumped flips were pretty good.

 

[Skatesocs]

Well, according to the judges, you can't say Yu Na had correct flip in general.

According to the judges, Yuna had a correct flip - apart from one season.

Yes, I can absolutely claim she had a correct flip. Because one can correct their errors, if they're making any. I have data if you want, but I'm sure you'll make it a point to look at it. Surely you will not disagree with the judges now, since you usually agree with them?

 

[Baron Vladimir]

According to the judges, Yuna had a correct flip - apart from one season.

Yes, I can absolutely claim she had a correct flip. Because one can correct their errors, if they're making any. I have data if you want, but I'm sure you'll make it a point to look at it.

Ok, it was better to give one example from the competition, not to speak in generals, cause skaters don't jump the same way in every competition. Caro is a better flip jumper for me (when the jump is safely landed ), this is how her flip usually looked like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xufum1EUYeo (you can see clear inside edge)

 

[Skatesocs]

Ok, it was better to give one example from the competition, not to speak in generals, cause skaters don't jump the same way in every competition.

Well, you still need to compare this example with Yuna's.

Caro is a better flip jumper for me (when the jump is safely landed ), this is how her flip usually looked like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xufum1EUYeo

But by your own logic, I can discard Kostner's Flip, because "usually" she made an error on the landing How can you claim she had a better 3F, when she "usually" made errors on this jump? The judges disagree, because on an average that jump simply landed less for her compared to Yuna and got lower GOE The example you picked is of course UNusual for her, since it didn't have an error.

Anyway, Yuna had the better 3F (comparing her best to Kostner's best), because she got more distance, got straighter in the air than Kostner used to, and went into it with much more speed.

(you can see clear inside edge)

I have already described why "clear inside edge" (in Kostner's case, you mean "deep inside edge") isn't the "best technique". If you have mechanical objections to what I said, then make them. Otherwise, meh, if all you have is the deep edge. There's more to the jump than that.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

But by your own logic, I can discard Kostner's Flip, because "usually" she made an error on the landing How can you claim she had a better 3F, when she "usually" made errors on this jump? The judges disagree, because on an average that jump simply landed less for her compared to Yuna and got lower GOE

Anyway, Yuna had the better 3F (comparing her best to Kostner's best), because she got more distance, got straighter in the air than Kostner used to, and went into it with much more speed.


I have already described why "clear inside edge" (in Kostner's case, you mean "deep inside edge") isn't the "best technique". If you have mechanical objections to what I said, then make them. Otherwise, meh.

Maybe, but it was jumped with wrong edge and flat edge many times, as here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIMLw5EOkq8 Here is better, (but it may be called from some as flat too) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAw2x7DnDzc. Comparing it with Caro, it is not more 'correct' flip jump for me, but OK, i understand your point.