Judging Critiques/Continuation of Plushenko’s Allegations

[Skatesocs]

Maybe, but it was jumped with wrong edge and flat edge many times, as here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIMLw5EOkq8 Here is better, (but it may be called from some as flat too) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAw2x7DnDzc. Comparing it with Caro, it is not more 'correct' flip jump for me, but OK, i understand your point.

OK, again, if you have a different mechanical description, then please make it. I have already said why I disagree with the shallow edge being worse than a deep edge, how the shallow inside edge is often misjudged, AND I have described the qualities that make it better than Kostner's. The edge isn't the only thing that matters to a Flip - and Kim's was judged as correct by the judges most of the time. What you are saying doesn't speak against my points. I also didn't go out of my way to say Kim's was the better 3F in the initial post, although yes I would absolutely call it better than Kostner's, each doing their best (which, again, their best means Kim without edge calls).

Just FYI, the Sochi one was called correct, too. And that one is indeed better than the one by Kostner than you've linked in the thread - exactly as I've said, she's faster, gets more flow, and is straighter in the air + gets more distance.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

IF you have mechanical objections, then please make them.

Otherwise, you are using fallacies. Yuna's BEST is indeed "more correct" (syntactically wrong on your part), AND the judges agree there. I am not talking in general (which you have swerved twice over now, first talking in general terms, and then giving an example specifically for Kostner, and then giving me exclusively examples for Yuna and claiming more of hers were called wrong edge and therefore wasn't "more correct" making yet another general claim) about whose Flip is "more correct" - whatever that even means. Your claim that Kostner's is "more correct" is based on HER EDGE - for which you will need to tell me why my MECHANICAL descriptions of a shallow inside edge being better are wrong in the first place. You need to read the entire discussion again, and try to understand what is being said. You are making the jump exclusively about the deep inside edge where as I am saying there is more to the jump than that which needs to be considered, and is in fact done better off a shallow inside edge.

BTW, again, just going by the judges, as you prefer, the one at Skate America 2008 was indeed called (!). The one at Sochi wasn't - so by your own logic, since it wasn't called, it was correct.

The question was who had the correct flip jump in general (not which one of many flip jumps looked better), i only disagree that Yu Na is the best answer for it (knowing her flips from the past were jumped with wrong and flat edges, with some panels giving it benefit of a doubt, as it was with the other jumps from the other skaters). Shallow outside edge (comparing to the deep one) for lutz may be more safe for landing the jump too, so... I'm certainly not the one who is claiming that edges in the take off should be necessarily deep and i agree with you how there is more to the jump to consider.

 

[Skatesocs]

The question was who had the correct flip jump in general (not which one of many flip jumps looked better),

The question was "who had a correct flip". Yuna's Flip being correct is true - both according to me and the judges for the most part. And many other people I've heard talking about it.

Also, your post is the one that made it about "better":

Ok, it was better to give one example from the competition, not to speak in generals, cause skaters don't jump the same way in every competition. Caro is a better flip jumper for me (when the jump is safely landed ), this is how her flip usually looked like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xufum1EUYeo (you can see clear inside edge)

I simply claimed Yuna's was correct.

i only disagree that Yu Na is the best answer for it (knowing her flips from the past were jumped with wrong and flat edges, with some panels giving it benefit of a doubt, as it was with the other jumps from the other skaters).

You have no basis for claiming this - and since it was all of one season it was a problem, I can simply say she fixed her Flip and didn't have a problem before it either. Prove your claim, otherwise. You cannot have it both ways, where you go by the judges and ignore the analysis someone offers, and then suddenly claim that someone was given the benefit of the doubt by the judges.

Shallow outside edge (comparing to the deep one) for lutz may be more safe for landing the jump too, so...

This is an incorrect comparison, as the Flip and Lutz don't have the same mechanics. If you have any analysis to offer than the usual, I'm asking you again to type it for me.

I'm certainly not the one who is claiming that edges in the take off should be necessarily deep and i agree with you how there is more to the jump to consider.

You're morphing your logic again. Why did you show Kostner's Flip and ask me to note her "clear inside edge" and say it was "better"? Why don't you show me a shallow inside edge flip from a woman that you think can beat Yuna's or Midori Ito's? OR tell me how precisely, apart from the edge, Kostner's 3F is "better"?

Anyway, I rewrote my other post. I don't want to continue talking about this with you, but I do apologize for getting heated.

 

[Dawn825]

You're being unnecessarily aggressive. The person you're arguing with seems to be trying to meet in the middle, so consider it?

 

[Skatesocs]

You're being unnecessarily aggressive. The person you're arguing with seems to be trying to meet in the middle, so consider it?

I did apologize for getting heated, and I won't continue the discussion. But no, I don't want to meet them in the middle of this debate. Sorry.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

There's perhaps some basis to looking at historical executions, but wouldn't you agree that a shallow inside edge is how it should be taught? We know mechanics a lot better now than during Browning's time. A shallow inside edge does help to maximize force. Nothing wrong with emphasising correctness of technique and quality.

I will agree though that flat edges and shallow outside edges shouldn't be getting the same penalties as moderate outside edges or deep outside edges on the Flip. The first two are still mechanically close to a real, quality Flip. The other two are farther away. If a judge wants, they can give the "incorrect edge (no sign)" deduction for flat edges and shallow outside edges.

I would also point out that doing a correct LFO 3 turn makes it impossible to Lip. It sets you on a shallow back inside by the time you pick in, exactly how it should be. If someone's noticing "an outside edge" after the skater picks in for the vault/during the vault, that's not the same thing at all. You're just noticing the skater getting off the ice from what is a rather unnatural position for the foot.


Yuna Kim and Midori Ito, of the women. I always liked Daisuke Takahashi's Flip from the men too. Currently think Yan Han has the best 3F.

Yan's 3F is lovely but the best one right now for me hands down is Jason Brown's.

 

[Skatesocs]

Yan's 3F is lovely but the best one right now for me hands down is Jason Brown's.

Oh, hi CSG (and @kolyadafan2002). I do think Brown's Flip is very good, and he does it with good distance and transitions in. But for me Yan's Flip has the best amplitude. It's really explosive, and he takes such speed into it.

BTW - Yan takes the same slight inside edge approach as Kim, and he has also been given the (!) sometimes. Again, it's still a correct Flip (don't really want to get into the semantics of the word "correct" again if people don't mind). The call is wrong, and it's unfair to such a technique.

 

[Anoosheh]

No it isn't, that's the mechanics of the jump, and how it's been done for ages. You aren't really supposed to be on much of an inside edge. It should be a straight edge, so if it tilts slightly to the outside when leaving the ice, then whatever. Hence why there was talk about flutzes for a long time, whereas nobody at all cared if someone went slightly outside on their flip. Only the severe Flip edge switches were ever regarded as an error.

Flip can be done on a slightly outside edge?!!
Can you provide a reliable source to back up this statement?

 

[Dawn825]

On the ISU's flip jump simulation, they say "slight inside edge" and show a skate that looks completely flat to me. With Yu-Na's you can also only tell it's on the inside from the ice tracing, not necessarily from a close up of her skate at the point of take off. Clear inside is probably better - clear meaning the jump doesn't need to be slowed down to tell what edge it's on, not necessarily deep.

Flip Jump Analysis - Queen Yuna Kim vs Evgenia Medvedeva

When your queen does salchows instead of flips.

youtu.be

 

[Skatesocs]

On the ISU's flip jump simulation, they say "slight inside edge" and show a skate that looks completely flat to me. With Yu-Na's you can also only tell it's on the inside from the ice tracing, not necessarily from a close up of her skate at the point of take off. Clear inside is probably better - clear meaning the jump doesn't need to be slowed down to tell what edge it's on, not necessarily deep.

Flip Jump Analysis - Queen Yuna Kim vs Evgenia Medvedeva

When your queen does salchows instead of flips.

youtu.be

Hello,

Yes, this is all I was trying to make a point out of, before it spiralled. The technique is correct, but looks to me the judges/TP can't tell and wrongly penalize, which is wrong to me because it gives better quality Flips overall. Hence my citing Yuna, Midori, and Han as examples of a correct flip. Clear inside is "better" because judges won't penalize, but I hope to see it fixed, because the overall quality does matter. It will be fixed if they are given better technology.

 

[Skatesocs]

Flip can be done on a slightly outside edge?!!
Can you provide a reliable source to back up this statement?

Hello,

Blades of Passion isn't talking necessarily about the edges there. The Flip (as all other jumps) is based off momentum across the ice that can be converted into upward momentum. Flips are best achieved when the skater is able to keep their momentum on a straight line while going into it. The best way to do so is by being on a very slight inside edge. The result of a "straight line set up" being emphasised more than the actual edge in the case of a Flip likely meant some skaters and coaches paid little attention to whether they did it off a slight inside edge or flat edge or slight outside edge. It is up to debate if the flat edge or slight outside edge should be accepted as correct or not - but it would make sense to not give them the same penalty as moderate outside edges or deep outside edges, if one wants.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Hello,

Yes, this is all I was trying to make a point out of, before it spiralled. The technique is correct, but looks to me the judges/TP can't tell and wrongly penalize, which is wrong to me because it gives better quality Flips overall. Hence my citing Yuna, Midori, and Han as examples of a correct flip. Clear inside is "better" because judges won't penalize, but I hope to see it fixed, because the overall quality does matter. It will be fixed if they are given better technology.

Again, akin to Browning, Ito is one of my favourite skaters of all time... but her flip was NOT a good example of correct flip technique:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB3btMcmnCQ#t=5m06s

Someone said earlier - if a typical CCW skater going into a flip with a 3-turn/mohawk entrance, they go LFO-LBI/RFI/LBI. If that LBI edge changes edge to an outside before or upon takeoff, that is not ideal flip technique. You can see in the video above that this clearly happens in Ito's flip attempt (huge height though!!).

(Side note: I know judges give her a 3A "bonus", but those 5.9's for technical were way too generous - both hands down on the 3A, a turnout on the 3F, a doubled 3S, and her spins could have been better -- her layback position needed more arch, and her combo spin had barely held positions, her flying camel combo spin needed better control. The 3-3 and ensuing death drop after were sensational elements though, but overall not worthy of anything more than a 5.8 at best.)

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Hello,

Blades of Passion isn't talking necessarily about the edges there. The Flip (as all other jumps) is based off momentum across the ice that can be converted into upward momentum. Flips are best achieved when the skater is able to keep their momentum on a straight line while going into it. The best way to do so is by being on a very slight inside edge.. It is up to debate if the flat edge or slight outside edge should be accepted as correct or not - but it would make sense to not give them the same penalty as moderate outside edges or deep outside edges, if one wants.

Yes, those are some things to begin with. That is the easiest way to learn to jump a flip. So, it is not about how it is best to achieve something, but what is the easiest way to achieve it. That's why some of those flips may be called by tech panel or judged with lower GOE, because of emphasis on the pattern, and not on the edge, or other things. Adding complexity to the jump, as emphasize on the edge, entry, exit, varieties in the skating pattern prior the jump may require different strategy. It is not written that every skater should jump flip like that, actually some of the other flips, as Zhenya's ones for example were getting more GOE's as a result. Because, jump is not only about the 'textbook' approach to the jump. Or, you want to say that just because Yu Na had textbook approach to the flip, judges had no right to call her edge?

 

[Skatesocs]

if a typical CCW skater going into a flip with a 3-turn entrance, they go LFO-LBI.

That was me

Maybe I don't remember Ito's Flip well (I remember she has done other Flips well enough - which we've discussed before, because it looks there to me that she is on an inside edge by the time she picks in). I will resist getting into the discussion. I hope you agree the other two are at least good examples?

 

[Skatesocs]

Yes, those are some things to begin with. That is the easiest way to learn to jump a flip. So, it is not about how it is best to achieve something, but what is the easiest way to achieve it. That's why some of those flips may be called by tech panel or judged with lower GOE, because of emphasis on the pattern, and not on the edge, or other things. Adding complexity to the jump, as emphasize on the edge, entry, exit, varieties in the skating pattern prior the jump may require different strategy. It is not written that every skater should jump flip like that, actually some of the other flips, as Zhenya's ones for example were getting more GOE's as a result. Because, jump is not only about the 'textbook' approach to the jump. Or, you want to say that just because Yu Na had textbook approach to the flip, judges had no right to call her edge?

This makes no sense to me, sorry. Care to explain again? You are swerving repeatedly in this paragraph.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

This makes no sense to me, sorry. Care to explain again? You are swerving repeatedly in this paragraph.

Multiple quotation didn't work this time for me I was trying to include ISU video of a flip jump the other poster posted before you.

 

[Skatesocs]

Multiple quotation didn't work this time for me I was trying to include ISU video of a flip jump the other poster posted before you.

I would like you to again explain, in clear terms, what you mean, because even with this post, I can't say I understand what you want to say.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

That was me

Maybe I don't remember Ito's Flip well (I remember she has done other Flips well enough - which we've discussed before, because it looks there to me that she is on an inside edge by the time she picks in). I will resist getting into the discussion. I hope you agree the other two are at least good examples?

I wouldn't "by the time she picks in" is definitive of ideal technique. And it's arguable at that if the inside edge is definitive enough. It's clear that after turning backwards she goes onto an outside edge. This isn't ideal and would likely get an edge call by more than one tech panel these days. Not every flip jumper jumps as high as Midori, but they certainly have better edge control in maintaining the inside edge on the tail end of their mohawk/3turn before picking in which makes their edge less ambiguous.

 

[Skatesocs]

I wouldn't "by the time she picks in" is definitive of ideal technique.

I wouldn't call it "ideal" either actually. I thought I'd put that sentence in, but it turns out I removed it I agree Ito's isn't an "ideal" Flip. I mentioned it as correct, because on her best attempts, by the time she picks in, she was on a slight inside edge and got great height off it. This technique can be up for debate now however, I can agree to that.

Sorry for the confusion there. (ETA: I see that the terms we are using are different. Ideal vs correct vs acceptable today. Partly my own fault, I should have been clearer in my OP. But I did mean on her best ones she was finally on the slight inside edge by the time she picked in and on a straight entry - hence "correct". Not ideal, but correct.)

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I would like you to again explain, in clear terms, what you mean, because even with this post, I can't say I understand what you want to say.

I see the problem is that i criticized Yu Na flip edge for not being clean all the time, sorry if that triggered you Your point was that YuNa had the right approach to the flip, which we can call textbook, however her edge was not always right. But for the flip and the lutz judges are looking for the edges, that's how the jump is defined, not for the textbook approach to the jump (which is made for beginners to learn about the jump the easiest way), or for a recommended mechanic of the jump being copied.