Let the Competition and Complaining Begin!

[jennylovskt]

Make me want to root for Joubert for gold even more than ever.

 

[Nan]

I was just reading about the tiff between Joubert and Chan and didn't pay much attention to it and did not really care about it until I was flabbergasted when Chan stepped over the line and said he is better then Ilia Kulik and Alexei Yagudin, unbelievable, what did they have do with the tiff? They can sugarcoat it all they want but it was a put down on these skaters and instead of laughing about it Michael Slipcuk should try and keep Chan's ego in check about being the best skater ever. Yagudin is still popular since winning the Olympics in 2002 with two brilliant, terrific and unforgetable performances, still has passion in his skating and quite a few of his programs are Masterpieces. Chan is just starting his career so we will see how he holds up before he compares himself to be the best with past Champions. He should wait until he wins 4 Worlds, Olympic medals with outstanding performance before he even could be considered in that category.

 

[antmanb]

I don't think that Chan was trying to insult Yagudin. The programs of 6.0 had little to no connecting steps between elements. Footwork was kept to a minimum. It was entertaining, but difficult? Not so much. Sure they didn't need to do difficult footwork, but I don't think Chan was trying to say that he's better than Yagudin because his CoP program has harder footwork.

Really? I did, Chan said "He didn't do anything compared to what we're doing". The use of hyperbole makes it sound very demeaning (he didn't do anything?? Really Patrick - did you miss the two quads and compliment of other triples along with the two step sequences and the spins in the program? Really "nothing"?) what else can we deduce from that statement other than he thinks his programs better?

The fact is that he's criticising World and Olympic champions and he doesn't even have a title to his name. This is not the way to create a good impression.

I also read an interesting perspective on FSU. I can hardly stand to listen to Joubert's whining about quads and quadless skaters. Imagine how the skaters who actually skate with him must feel.

Well as whiney as Joubert can be about quads he's certainly been very careful to use language that focuses on that one element. He didn't (and never has) made a personal attack on someone's character or their personality. that to me shows far less respect and is a much more serious character flaw than anything Joubert has done.

Imagine having your peer say you didn't deserve to beat him fair and square because you were missing a quad?

Just wondering - but when did Joubert ever say this to or about Chan?

Ant

 

[sk8rmommy]

I rarely post, preferring just to read, but I felt compelled to respond regarding Patrick's ego. Years ago when he was just a Novice skater, my daughter had the pleasure of training alongside him. He was a few levels higher than her at the time and so her interaction with him was limited, however, even when he was young, there was lots of praise bestowed on him and he was always humble, courteous and thankful. As he rose through the ranks (and my daughter left his rink) we would bump into him and congratulate him on whatever competition he had just won and again I found him to be one of the most polite teenagers I ever came across.

With regards to his comments about Joubert (and I am a fan of both), I think people should ask themselves how they would respond to constantly having to justify your accomplishments. I think the words just came out and that's that....too much is being read into this.

 

[Medusa]

And what the heck is Kulik doing in Chan's reasoning (or should I say immature rant?)? Kulik, the man who did his jumps out of nowhere with incredible ease and height. Kulik, the man who had, in my opinion, the best spread eagle into 3A ever, and not a 1/10-second spread eagle like Mroz or Lindemann but a really long beautiful spread eagle into a perfect 3A. Kulik also didn't have front-loaded programs - just look at the Aladdin program, he was only 18 back then - but I find that program very entertaining and despite the different expectations concerning footwork and spins not at all empty. Notice the spin at the beginning where he incorporates the music and the story into the end of the spin. The second to last jump was a Triple Axel in that program.

 

[Hsuhs]

"It's honest."

Well, if a grown-up says it's okay, then it's okay, I guess.

I'll save my venom for the actual performances.

 

[antmanb]

With regards to his comments about Joubert (and I am a fan of both), I think people should ask themselves how they would respond to constantly having to justify your accomplishments. I think the words just came out and that's that....too much is being read into this.

And again i would ask - why does Chan have to justify anything? Agree or disagree with him (and i disagree with him strongly) Joubert has ALWAYS gone on and on ad nauseam about the quad - since before Chan was even a senior skater, Chan doesn't really have anything to justify and nothing, bar a personal attack from Joubert himself, would make Chan's statements even vaguely OK.

So far Chan has no accomplishments on the world stage so there is nothing to justify.

Ant

 

[skatingbc]

Really? I did, Chan said "He didn't do anything compared to what we're doing". The use of hyperbole makes it sound very demeaning (he didn't do anything?? Really Patrick - did you miss the two quads and compliment of other triples along with the two step sequences and the spins in the program? Really "nothing"?) what else can we deduce from that statement other than he thinks his programs better?

The fact is that he's criticising World and Olympic champions and he doesn't even have a title to his name. This is not the way to create a good impression.



Well as whiney as Joubert can be about quads he's certainly been very careful to use language that focuses on that one element. He didn't (and never has) made a personal attack on someone's character or their personality. that to me shows far less respect and is a much more serious character flaw than anything Joubert has done.



Just wondering - but when did Joubert ever say this to or about Chan?

Ant

If you look at their footwork and even their spins, it’s nothing compared to what we do.”

He's talking about the footwork and spins. He is not talking about jumps at all.

We don't know what goes on behind the scenes either. If Joubert makes snarky comments in front of the media, I wonder how he behaves while the cameras aren't rolling?

I wasn't trying to insinuate that Joubert had made a comment about Chan's performances winning without a quad. He certainly made a comment about Jeff becoming World Champion without a quad. I'm sure he was thrilled that Jeremy won the GPF without a quad as well.

 

[stevlin]

Just curious?

I think these comments are quite unfair.

Yes, Brian always goes on about quads (and in my opinion he focuses a bit too much on them - for example, I loath Jeff's skating but I believe that he was the clear winner at last year's Worlds) but Patrick's comments are too harsh.

"But if you're going to say, let's all do quads, then he better have three quads in his program and do them good. Or else he has nothing else to say.

As is has already been said, Brian always attempts at least one quad in competitions. He would like to do more, as he as already said, but if he doesn't always try to it's because if he's not in good mental shape his quads don't always go right. As the system doesn't priviledge this kind of risk taking and as in the past when Brian did take these kind of risks but was penalized for it, he just doesn't bother taking so many risks nowadays, despite his view on what skating should be.

"Because he never has anything else to say."...

Wrong. It's just his quad remarks are infamous.

If anything, I think Patrick's comments are going to make Brian more determinded than ever to do three quads in his program.

Just curious but what did you loathe about Buttle's skating? It was perfect in the sp and lp. The judges certainly loved it. He is such an artistic skater plus great tech. ?????????

 

[shine]

I was just reading about the tiff between Joubert and Chan and didn't pay much attention to it and did not really care about it until I was flabbergasted when Chan stepped over the line and said he is better then Ilia Kulik and Alexei Yagudin, unbelievable, what did they have do with the tiff? They can sugarcoat it all they want but it was a put down on these skaters and instead of laughing about it Michael Slipcuk should try and keep Chan's ego in check about being the best skater ever. Yagudin is still popular since winning the Olympics in 2002 with two brilliant, terrific and unforgetable performances, still has passion in his skating and quite a few of his programs are Masterpieces. Chan is just starting his career so we will see how he holds up before he compares himself to be the best with past Champions. He should wait until he wins 4 Worlds, Olympic medals with outstanding performance before he even could be considered in that category.

I think some of us here might need to learn to READ here. The exact quote from Chan was

“Well, if you look at Yagudin at the 2002 Salt Lake Olympics, his program wasn’t as difficult as any of ours; Our footwork today is pretty much a program, you’re pooped after footwork. You can’t really compare it to back then. If you look at their footwork and even their spins, it’s nothing compared to what we do.”

Where exactly did Chan say HE is better than Yagudin or Kulik? He merely stated a fact, which I don't see why anyone would disagree. The non-jump elements today ARE much harder than they used to be, which is a natural result of skaters trying to max out their points under CoP. So what's wrong with pointing that out?? And I don't believe he singled out HIMSELF as doing everything better than the past greats; in his comments he used "our" or "we", which I take to mean the entire generation. And I am pretty sure these comments are a direct response to Joubert's sentiment that the sport is technically regressing. In the sport's defense, Patrick is trying to point out to outside observers that figure skating is evolving in everywhere else, even though the jumps may appear "less exciting" to some.

 

[Medusa]

Just curious but what did you loathe about Buttle's skating? It was perfect in the sp and lp. The judges certainly loved it. He is such an artistic skater plus great tech. ?????????

Well, you didn't ask me and I don't loathe Jeff's skating (otherwise that avatar might be out of place) - but everyone has different tastes.

Great tech is exaggerated. Good average I would say. His jumps never had the height and power of Joubert / Verner / Ponsero, nor the catlike ease of Takahashi / Kozuka / Chan and not the absolute perfection of Weir's Triples. I wouldn't even call his free program at last Worlds great concerning the tech. It was good, no doubt about that. But none of the jumps were spectacular, no outstanding height, no amazing distance covered, no incredible landing positioin...

And about the artistic - some people call him simply boring. And I can understand that, though I personally have a different opinion. Jeff was incredibly subtle as a skater. There was nothing really outstanding, no Joubert jumps, no Lambiel spins, no Takahashi footwork... I think you really have to love the subtle in order to enjoy Buttle, who was incredible in capturing every nuance of the music. He was like a harmonious impressionist painting from Turner. And hey, and not everybody loves those.

 

[antmanb]

Great tech is exaggerated. Good average I would say. His jumps never had the height and power of Joubert / Verner / Ponsero, nor the catlike ease of Takahashi / Kozuka / Chan and not the absolute perfection of Weir's Triples. I wouldn't even call his free program at last Worlds great concerning the tech. It was good, no doubt about that. But none of the jumps were spectacular, no outstanding height, no amazing distance covered, no incredible landing positioin...

I agree with what you wrote, but i would also add in that the technical side of skating is not just the jumps - it's also spins and footwork. When you look at technical as being the jumps, spins and footwork together I think Buttle had great tech.

Ant

 

[enlight78]

And again i would ask - why does Chan have to justify anything? Agree or disagree with him (and i disagree with him strongly) Joubert has ALWAYS gone on and on ad nauseam about the quad - since before Chan was even a senior skater, Chan doesn't really have anything to justify and nothing, bar a personal attack from Joubert himself, would make Chan's statements even vaguely OK.

So far Chan has no accomplishments on the world stage so there is nothing to justify.

Ant

I believe jourbert did indirectly attack him. He stated that he believe Evan to be his main competition because he had a quad. Now I think it a very disrespectful to dismiss the GPF champion and the guy with the highest score (because they haven't peformed a quad) and pick Evan as his biggest threat(who might not even medal).If that is not a personal attack of some sort, I don't know what is.
I wish chan and brian good luck.May the best man win.

 

[Mathman]

...no stupid windmill arms...

You have any one specific in mind?

Actually in this instance I wasn't thinking of him! Believe it or not!...

I have specifically talked and Plush's arms as "flailing" never "windmill"!! There is a subtle difference and i'm forgetting the male skater that literally has made windmills with his arms during step sequences.

OK, now, stop picking on my guy Lysacek!

 

[Mathman]

But you have to admit - the "running" motions at the end of (Joubert's) circular step sequence in the SP look ridiculous and he's definitely used that before in a step sequence! It makes me laugh every time i see it. I also burst out laughing at what I thought were Yag's ridiculous "toe picky picky" steps in Winter so make of that what you will!

Yagudin had that kind of self-mocking charm that successful stage performers rely on. A great entertainer can make the audience want to be flim-flammed.

Yagudin doing Yagudin, yes. Joubert doing Yagudin, um, no.

“Well, if you look at Yagudin at the 2002 Salt Lake Olympics, his program wasn’t as difficult as any of ours,” said Chan, expanding the discussion to include his fellow Canadians, Vaughn Chipeur of Calgary and Vancouver’s Jeremy Ten, who stood at his side looking like a couple of uncomfortable bodyguards.

That is beyound ridiculous.

Let's see now...Alexei Yagudin...Vaughn Chipeur and Jeremy Ten...Yagudin...Chipeur and Ten...

Isn't that a little like comparing the Prince of Denmark with Rosencrantz and Guildenstern?

 

[Wrlmy]

Mathman I'm dying How much I love random Danish metaphor.

 

[kittyjake5]

OK, now, stop picking on my guy Lysacek!

I knew it was just a matter of time before Evan's name would somehow appear in this thread. lol

 

[sillylionlove]

Somewhere Evan, Patrick, Brian are having their own personal contest and the others are probably reading this going "they said my name more times on this thread" and coming up with something else that will get us ranting and raving about them!! I

 

[seniorita]

OK, now, stop picking on my guy Lysacek!

excuse me but you steal my Plush's thunder now...

 

[NatachaHatawa]

Just curious but what did you loathe about Buttle's skating? It was perfect in the sp and lp. The judges certainly loved it. He is such an artistic skater plus great tech. ?????????

I personnaly thought Jeff was a bore (I don't mean it in a nasty way). If I said it there though, it's just to show that despite being a huge Brian fan and someone who really doesn't like Jeff's skating, (despite obvious qualities) I believe that Jeff beat Brian fair and square at worlds - if I can admit it, anybody can!!!

Comming back to your question, I think that Jeff has perfect flow on the ice (probably one of the best ever), but for some reason he just bores me to death. I can never get into his program (apart from 08 world's LP a bit - but maybe that was just I was waiting for him to make a mistake for Brian to win) Artisticly I always have the feeling that he's doing the same thing during his whole program (although he probably isn't), his jumps, although clean aren't huge and his much acclaimed footwork and spins just don't have any effect on me, despite the fact that they're very intricate. What's funny though is that for me it isn't a matter of Brian's masculin style vs Jeff's lyrical style, because I love Stéphane Lambiel and Johnny Weir. I think it has more to do with North American men's skating generally not being to my taste.