Moves That Don't Quite Make It: Master it or Scrap it?

[Mafke]

not done with a full split but overall rather nice illusion spin by tiffany chin at the 4.00 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzW731xiLdk

 

[HCOSurfer]

Sarah Hughes also does a good illusion spin in her 2002 Olympic LP.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-2KYnyBI3JU

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

There are Ilusion spins and there are Ilusion spins, just as there are basic camel spins. Some skaters do them perfectly; other not so perfectly. That's all about competition.

Joe

 

[vlaurend]

No, it doesn't only look sloppy to you.

This is the whole problem with CoP at present in a nutshell. I think the process goes like this:

1. Find a classic, aesthetically pleasing move
2. Add a variation that makes the move technically 'more difficult' but which decreases the aesthetics by a) slowing the move down too much b) breaking visually pleasing body lines c) wrecking the rhythm of the program.
3. POINTS!!!

Also, while we're here another (new, courtesy of CoP) pet peeve are camel spins. I never used to appreciate them properly but hardly anyone is doing good camels anymore and the norm seems to be wonky, off center camels.
Zhang (whose layback is really great) has an especially bad camel in the clips I've seen so far. Meier (a personal fave of mine) does a pretty wonky camel in your link.

Both the awkward-looking upright positions and camels are due to the change of edge. Change of edge spins are just awkward looking unless they are done really well. And even then. . .hwell:

 

[fenway]

What moves can you do without? Do you find them distracting from the beauty of the program? IMO I dislke seeing I spins where the skater cannot get the leg extended enough. To me it looks like they are saying "Look how far I can't straighten out my leg". So, do you think it is better for a skater to attempt a move they have not mastered, or should they only include a move after they have perfected it?

I say this ALL THE TIME. I can't stand when I spins aren't done well. There's nothing more unattractive than a woman hunched over as she desperately tries to make her leg and body meet. It's the back that always gets to me. Yuck.

 

[blue dog]

I hate illusions and the spin that Ina and Zimmerman did with her head down and he is holding her leg upward. I think Tarmara Mosvina had Anton and Elena as well as Artur and Oskana do this spin as well. I feel it is a demeaning position for the woman.

Do you mean the Natalia spin? Like Michkoutienok and Dmitriev do here at 2:00?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AQNIGgqzOyk

 

[Medusa]

Do you mean the Natalia spin? Like Michkoutienok and Dmitriev do here at 2:00?

Ohh, I hate that one! It really looks submissive and degrading. But apart from that I love their speed during that pair spin, most pair spins nowadays look painfully slow and that makes them unattractive in the first place.

 

[Mafke]

Ohh, I hate that one! It really looks submissive and degrading.

Strangely enough I don't hate the Natalia spin (and don't perceive it as degrading though I can understand how some people could, I think a lot depends on the deportment of the man).

The pair spin position that I _hate_ is what I call the "Ride 'em cowboy!" where the women is in a camel position and the man puts his leg over her back. YECHHH!!! I've managed to mercifully blank out the name of the pair(s) that do this position so I can't look up pictures or vids.

 

[gkelly]

The pair spin position that I _hate_ is what I call the "Ride 'em cowboy!" where the women is in a camel position and the man puts his leg over her back. YECHHH!!! I've managed to mercifully blank out the name of the pair(s) that do this position so I can't look up pictures or vids.

You mean the second one on the left here?
http://www.pairsonice.net/photopage.php?event=19980208&program=SP&f=Meno&m=Sand

 

[Mafke]

You mean the second one on the left here?
http://www.pairsonice.net/photopage.php?event=19980208&program=SP&f=Meno&m=Sand

That's (ulp!) it .... brrrrrrrrrr

 

[blue dog]

Strangely enough I don't hate the Natalia spin (and don't perceive it as degrading though I can understand how some people could, I think a lot depends on the deportment of the man).

The pair spin position that I _hate_ is what I call the "Ride 'em cowboy!" where the women is in a camel position and the man puts his leg over her back. YECHHH!!! I've managed to mercifully blank out the name of the pair(s) that do this position so I can't look up pictures or vids.

More so than the Natalia, that one (the camel/upright pair spin) is degrading. Luckily, the ISU considers it level-1, so we rarely see it in its old form.

 

[all that]

You mean the second one on the left here?
http://www.pairsonice.net/photopage.php?event=19980208&program=SP&f=Meno&m=Sand

Thanks for the link. I've actually never seen that spin before.

 

[carolinefan177]

Also, while we're here another (new, courtesy of CoP) pet peeve are camel spins. I never used to appreciate them properly but hardly anyone is doing good camels anymore and the norm seems to be wonky, off center camels.
Zhang (whose layback is really great) has an especially bad camel in the clips I've seen so far. Meier (a personal fave of mine) does a pretty wonky camel in your link.

But isn't Zhangs camel off center becase she changes her edge from the inside to the outside? Also, Zhag does a great illusion spin at the end of her encore at the 2007 junior worlds...I mean talk aout fast. For me, I cannot stand the "hydrant" spiral and lay backs with an unarched back/incorrect leg position.

 

[capcomop]

The hydrant spiral...

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/_photos/2005-11-05-in-skate.jpg

The worst version of this is when a pair team does it! In my house, someone always yells "Yeah, yeah, you're a girl and he's a boy. Put your legs down!."
The joke got started that with that move they didn't need to do gentic testing at the Olympics any more!
YUCK!

 

[Mafke]

But isn't Zhangs camel off center becase she changes her edge from the inside to the outside?

I'm reminded of the old joke:

Patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do this (raises arm)
Doctor: Then don't do that!

If she can't do the edge change without wobbling like a drunken zebra, then she shouldn't be doing the edge change.

Zhang does lots of things well but her camel spin is uglier than mud and I hate that CoP rewards it.

 

[Ladskater]

I am afraid I am from the "old school" of skating - especially for the ladies. I prefer more lady like moves. I am not fond of the spin that Sasha does at the end of most of her programs. It's okay sometimes, but she does tend to overkill the move a bit. We know she is flexible.

I also don't care for some of the dance lifts.