Virtue & Moir vs. Papadakis & Cizeron

[Skater Boy]

I would rather see B/S or the Shibutanis or especially Weaver and Poje win OGM than CL. They got a world gold and like I have suggested in the past at best CL were part ofa group of very good but not special ice dance teams - almost like no one deserved gold and all silver or bronze. It just seems "unfair' that such a teams goes home with OGM while a team like the Shibs or Weaver Poje don't even have world team - call it justice lol. Nothing against them. BEsides they were one of the 'vulnerable teams" which imho could be knocked down to 9th ie pc, vm, shibs, c/b, b/s, weapo, gilles and poirier, H/D all have a reasonble chance of being ahead - and I suppose even another team could beat them like the second russian team. Will it happen probably not.

 

[TontoK]

P/C came out of nowhere all of a sudden and won a world medal. I thought that's a little suspicious. But whatever...

I thought V/M had to work hard to earn their gold world medal.

P/C came along when two of the greatest ice dance teams in history stepped away from the sport, and simultaneously the greatest national power in history was in a major competitive doldrums (which still continues). Someone had to win.

P/C are good. So are the Shibs. So are W/P. So are C/B. So are the Russians. But none of them are great when compared to V/M or D/W or the Russian legends.

To pretend otherwise is delusional.

 

[yuna13]

i don't think it's fair to compare a team who competed at senior level for 4 years to one who did 2 olympics cycles.
obviously V/M have more experience than P/C.

so i would compare V/M 2006-2010 vs P/C 2013-2017
i don't think tittles matter ever for me what's important are the programs and if those programs had an impact on me or not.
i discovered virtue and moir during their 2007-2008 season with the umbrella of cherbourg program, i was impress because they were young and already at the top, plus they had amazing speed and complicated lifts. but i wasn't a fan of their program. i thought the same about the pink floyd program but then 2010 happened. the night of the olympic i was just spellbound by them. i still remenber the way i felt watching them, just waow!!


now P/C i first saw them at teb in 2013. i saw the short dance, that year i hated most quick step sd but i liked theirs. so i was curious to see their fd cause i saw that their coaches was muriel zazoui so i had great hope. wookid it was, i was happy cause again a french couple wasn't doing ballroom routine or classical type judge fav program. something original, they were young and for me clairly france ice dance future. i was so pissed that they weren't at og.
after OG 2014 AND WORLD 2014 i decided to stop watching ice dance cause no matter what a french team no matter how talented will never be world medalist or og medalist ( don't worry i remember D/S gold and P/B bronze) . i was tired to be dissapointed. and also i didn't want to wait for P/C to be on ice dance top 5. it took years for D/S and P/B to be among ice dance top team.
so in 2014 i didn't watch program but i was curious to see which team will take the advantage so i only watched the channel which put brit eurosport video, i was watching the resulst video. at coc i i saw the french flag in first position i couldn't believe it, cause it's was P/C against the world champion and aslo the shibs who never ever make mistake.
so i watched their performance and i found that they are skating to the music of my fav comtemporain ballet during the routine i was waiting for the kiss lift which is the signature of the ballet. every movement is with the music , it's just work beautifully :their interpretation + gabriella acting + guillaume dancing like no other ice dancer.
for my that program is like V/M mahler and carmen a masterpiece.

so finally a french team at the top, the youngest european and world champion, even today i still can't believe it. reputation, politics had no part in their victory.
so great expectation for their next program and they gave us build a home. what can i say... i still try to decide which program i prefer betwen mozart and build a home.
i love this program cause it's their story and for me this is also a masterpiece. i love the way they move,dance (i know i always say that). they are true artist.
this year they decided to take a music (first part)which is harder to connect with. they do that the year tessa and scott comeback. Strategically speaking i don't think it was wise but i appreciate the effort to push ice dance.

so for me at a 4 season at senior level match P/c win. it's just personnal preference. it doesn't mean that i think V/M are inferior.

this year if i compare their sd and their fd. i think V/M have a better sd and P/C a better fd : i saw the free dance live in marseille. but to me the free dance of the year is piper and paul tango.

i want to ad something :with carmen tessa and scott did the hardest thing ever: taking a piece that had been use again and again and they make it their own. they killed it.

 

[peepsquick]

P/C came along when two of the greatest ice dance teams in history stepped away from the sport, and simultaneously the greatest national power in history was in a major competitive doldrums (which still continues). Someone had to win.

P/C are good. So are the Shibs. So are W/P. So are C/B. So are the Russians. But none of them are great when compared to V/M or D/W or the Russian legends.

To pretend otherwise is delusional.

I beg to differ! Just listen to Charlie White talk about Papadakis-Cizeron! Give time to a young team to build their own legend!

 

[TontoK]

The argument isn't whether they COULD be truly great. The answer to that is "perhaps."

My statement, which I stand by, is that they are not great NOW in comparison to the legends.

Not even close.

 

[cocotaffy]

I beg to differ! Just listen to Charlie White talk about Papadakis-Cizeron! Give time to a young team to build their own legend!

I agree and their record is already great. It's only their 4th senior season and they have multiple GP gold and silver, GPF bronze and silver and more importantly 3 back to back European Titles and 2 back to back World titles. V/M on their fourth season weren't not there yet. On their 3rd year, Gabriella sustained a severe injury and P/C still managed to win Gold beating S/S who were riding a crazy momentum with a program praised by nearly everyone in Boston, the Shibs' city no less. So let's not minimize their achievements saying they've never faced serious competition.

Those two teams are great. Of course, right now V/M have collected many more medals because they've been skating way longer. One can say they don't like P/C style which is arguably much more specific and defined than V/M's was at the same age. One can even say they haven't reached their full potential or the technical excellence of a team which is much more experienced. But to dismiss their great qualities by saying they are not even close, that's over reaching. It also means that every single commentators including Charlie White and Virtue and Moir who are all on record praising their great SS and performance abilities don't know what they are talking about. I would guess D/W and V/M, being according to many here among the greatest teams, would know better than us fans what great SS mean. No one forced Charlie White to declare " when I grow up, I want to skate like them" during Grand Prix de France.

ID fans should stop pitting those two teams against one another and start enjoying the diversity they both bring to Ice Dance.

 

[peepsquick]

Well said, Cocotaffy!

 

[all that]

D/W's skating skills were never as good as P/C's, so of course Charlie would dream of being as good as P/C one day.

 

[peepsquick]

D/W's skating skills were never as good as P/C's, so of course Charlie would dream of being as good as P/C one day.

O.K., that tells me all I needed to know: you are not interested in a real non-partisan discussion. It is just about V/M coming back as the demi-gods of skating. Everybody bows deep and stays that way.
It doesn't serve the sport ...

 

[Nathan13]

All I'm going to say is that it's not set in stone that either P/C or V/M will be the team that wins worlds in 2017...Nor is it set in stone that one of these teams will win the OGM.

 

[blackey]

I agree and their record is already great. It's only their 4th senior season and they have multiple GP gold and silver, GPF bronze and silver and more importantly 3 back to back European Titles and 2 back to back World titles. V/M on their fourth season weren't not there yet. On their 3rd year, Gabriella sustained a severe injury and P/C still managed to win Gold beating S/S who were riding a crazy momentum with a program praised by nearly everyone in Boston, the Shibs' city no less. So let's not minimize their achievements saying they've never faced serious competition.

Those two teams are great. Of course, right now V/M have collected many more medals because they've been skating way longer. One can say they don't like P/C style which is arguably much more specific and defined than V/M's was at the same age. One can even say they haven't reached their full potential or the technical excellence of a team which is much more experienced. But to dismiss their great qualities by saying they are not even close, that's over reaching. It also means that every single commentators including Charlie White and Virtue and Moir who are all on record praising their great SS and performance abilities don't know what they are talking about. I would guess D/W and V/M, being according to many here among the greatest teams, would know better than us fans what great SS mean. No one forced Charlie White to declare " when I grow up, I want to skate like them" during Grand Prix de France.

ID fans should stop pitting those two teams against one another and start enjoying the diversity they both bring to Ice Dance.

since when the number of gp medals become a comparable condition. p/c got so many medals at the beginning of their senior career only because they come out of the doldrums. Plus ice dance is not the same as it used to be. back to the time v/m just came out of the field, there was no way they would give world champion to someone who ranked 13th the year before. v/m got 2nd at their second wc was a way bigger achievement than p/c got 1st at their second wc.

last year's worlds was at shibs home country, that really doesn't really say anything to me? shibs was 5th the year before, and 4th at the gpf (with an extraordinary performance and "praised by nearly everyone"). I really don't see how p/c beat a team like that in their home country could be consider a great achievement. I'm not trying to "minimize their achievements", that's just the fact. and we all know that there is no rivalry between p/c and the shibs like v/m & d/w or v/m & p/c. besides the hometown thing really doesn't have much to do in ice dance. v/m lost worlds at their hometown to d/w as well, p/c lost gpf to v/m at France. both v/m and p/c hardly get any benefits from it, I don't really see the shibs get any either.
tbh I don't understand why you emphasize on the number of medals so much. if that's the key then we can conclude d/w is better than v/m there won't be anymore debates.

and what other things do you think v/m and charlie could possibly say? "we were better than them at that age"? do you really want to quote what skater says as some reasonable proof? yes, they surely know things better than we do, but what they say is another thing, especially for someone still competing. Scott even said "we are underdogs compare to p/c", but in reality v/m beaten p/c two times already.

there is nothing wrong to enjoy them both, I do enjoy them both only it's only about performance, but it's a sport after all.

 

[skylark]

Love delicacy, intricacy and ‘feather’ quality of Gabriella and Guillaume’s skating, their more abstract approach to the skating and performing which I sometimes don’t understand, but admire and try to relate to. Inspired by their quiet/intimate and personal take on ice dance, always curious about story they want to tell. Always very impactful and charismatic, maybe just in more of subdued way. Expressiveness of Gabriella so matched with Guillaume’s strength and skill. Admire effortless value of their transitions, liquid flow of their programs. Love the fact that for me they are selling an air, dreamy fairy-tale, translated into moves, not losing this transcendent quality even with all these limitations the discipline and ice give.

I very much enjoyed reading your entire post. Don't forget what the admins/mods say: Post long and post often!

And this final, beautifully conceived and written paragraph of yours clarifies why I prefer Gabriella and Guillaume. It's personal taste. I like the suggestive and metaphorical, as opposed to the "everything out there" approach of Tessa and Scott. While I can see and appreciate their skill, they don't reach my heart or my questing intellect as Gabriella and Guillaume do. In a similar heart/brain (but not identical) way, I preferred Meryl & Charlie to Tessa/Scott because their passion was both wild *Charlie and mysterious *Meryl. Although I found this to be more true of their Hunchback of Notre Dame, POTO and Samson & Delilah FDs, rather than 2014 programs.

And I emphatically agree with those who've said, Why in the world would we want all the teams to be trying to do the same thing? Versatility and diversity are wonderful qualities. In my opinion, they're what makes the sport interesting. They broaden the scope and availability to audiences. It's too bad that in the end, the couple who gets the laurel is the one who will perform technically perfectly. I like the old days of the artistic being the tie-breaker. Not whose style is better, but their expression of it.

 

[Skater Boy]

I beg to differ! Just listen to Charlie White talk about Papadakis-Cizeron! Give time to a young team to build their own legend!

My only issue is while Cizeron has amazing dance skills Papdakis is at best mediocre and she can't even mask it like Chock with personality. Now this may have been easier camoflaged in the 6.0 system but arguably should be reflected in the tes and skatng skills especially.

This is right now a very good team but not special like D and W, V and M and a slew of Russian teams as well as Torvill and Dean.

 

[cocotaffy]

Plus ice dance is not the same as it used to be. back to the time v/m just came out of the field, there was no way they would give world champion to someone who ranked 13th the year before. v/m got 2nd at their second wc was a way bigger achievement than p/c got 1st at their second wc.

And it was the same thing when P/C came out of the field too. Why do you think everyone was so shocked by their win at Worlds if the dance field had already changed as you said. That alone says something about the quality of this team. No one thought it was possible before P/C.
Anyway, I'm not trying to bring down V/M, who is again one of the great teams no argument there from me, but I find it odd others are trying to bring down P/C's achievements. It sounds sometimes that saying P/C is great is taking away from V/M or D/W's greatness when many teams can be great at the same time.

 

[NoNameFace]

I very much enjoyed reading your entire post. Don't forget what the admins/mods say: Post long and post often!

And this final, beautifully conceived and written paragraph of yours clarifies why I prefer Gabriella and Guillaume. It's personal taste. I like the suggestive and metaphorical, as opposed to the "everything out there" approach of Tessa and Scott. While I can see and appreciate their skill, they don't reach my heart or my questing intellect as Gabriella and Guillaume do. In a similar heart/brain (but not identical) way, I preferred Meryl & Charlie to Tessa/Scott because their passion was both wild *Charlie and mysterious *Meryl. Although I found this to be more true of their Hunchback of Notre Dame, POTO and Samson & Delilah FDs, rather than 2014 programs.

And I emphatically agree with those who've said, Why in the world would we want all the teams to be trying to do the same thing? Versatility and diversity are wonderful qualities. In my opinion, they're what makes the sport interesting. They broaden the scope and availability to audiences. It's too bad that in the end, the couple who gets the laurel is the one who will perform technically perfectly. I like the old days of the artistic being the tie-breaker. Not whose style is better, but their expression of it.

skylark, thank You for Your kind words.

yes to Your last paragraph - I think that as we often complain about politicking, scoring and favoring certain styles/teams in Ice Dance, looking behind that I think that we were and we are currently priviledged to have such diverse world of Ice Dance to follow, there is so much to appreciate in every team depending what perspective we take - artistry, confidence in execution, showmanship quality, emotional connection, way of expression, technical maestry to name only a few factors. Talking each one, a different team could be a favourite one. And that's fantastic in my opinion.

There go also the programs which we like more or less, but regardless of that - if the team is reaching to us or if it's drawing us into their performance, I think that is even more important than winning an actual medal, these kind of teams/performances have a special place in my heart.

And about this whole debate who is the better team - I said my opinion earlier and I was addressing different perspectives there, great to You to have connected so strong and on 'personal taste' level with Gabriella and Guillaume's skating, because at the end of the day it's a matter of this personal take and preference towards skating, sometimes it is not what we've been looking for, but what we've connected with, from the very first or a very particular time.

I think in general that multi-dimentional quality is very important in Ice Dance and each team brings something individual with them. It may not be very spectacular or recognizable at first, but there is always a lot to admire and appreciate, starting with effort and courage to be a partner to one another and presenting programs.

And nowadays, I equally admire staying true to your aesthetic/vision of Ice Dance nad playing on your strenghts and going beyond them, challengeing themselves in terms of technique, style or artistic expression.

 

[peepsquick]

Gabriella has great skating skills and has a very striking personality ... it expresses itself differently than that of the top north-american ice dancers because in this couple, the focus is not just on the female skater but also on the male skater. Look at their FD: G. and G. shine on their own AND together . It makes their style quite extraordinary! Guillaume's sheer physicality is sometimes overwhelming Gabriella's in the SD but they do bring style/personality to each piece. I am truly getting tired of the wholesale put down of her skating or artistic skills. Enjoy their otherness (or not) but don't say she cannot skate. This is utterly ridiculous!

 

[maddiesparks]

I still think VM are going to win Worlds this year, but I must admit that after watching Europeans, PC have definitely refined their FD and they performed with a freedom like they haven't (IMO) been able to all season. Perhaps it was the lack of VM that eased up their nerves? I wasn't a fan of the changes they'd made in SD though, but they were minor and mostly choreographic.

Gabriella has great skating skills and has a very striking personality ... it expresses itself differently than that of the top north-american ice dancers because in this couple, the focus is not just on the female skater but also on the male skater.

You know, Marie-France described Gabriella as the ultimate partner because no matter what she was always where she needed to be on the ice and she anticipated how Guillaume was going to move and would adjust herself accordingly. I thought that was an interesting observation to make, mostly because I think it's usually the other way round in an ice dance dynamic, and the man is often accomodating the woman. I think whatever PC are doing, it's obviously working for them and I like the symbiosis of their skating.

 

[alain06fr]

I still think VM are going to win Worlds this year, but I must admit that after watching Europeans, PC have definitely refined their FD and they performed with a freedom like they haven't (IMO) been able to all season. Perhaps it was the lack of VM that eased up their nerves? I wasn't a fan of the changes they'd made in SD though, but they were minor and mostly choreographic.

I would like to share with you two facts:
1. For various reasons, the FD music was chosen late in the season.
2. Choreographing a program with such FD music was a hard challenge, at least harder than expected. As Marie-France explained in Paris, they had no reference whatsoever with this kind of music. Given its complexity, bringing up the FD program took much more time than usual.

As a consequence, even at GPF, P/C FD program was still in a construction phase. Interviewed during the Christmas break, Guillaume said they had defined a very detailed and intensive training/working planning to prepare the Europeans and then the Worlds. Once back in Montréal, Gabriella, Guillaume and their coaches worked like hell to finalise the FD program, the transitions, etc.
The outcome is definitely great. This program is now in its ramp-up phase as we could see at Europeans and Gabriella and Guillaume can now rely on a strong and clear FD basis.

As for the SD, given Romain Haguenauer's interview in l'Equipe, major changes are expected for Helsinki.

 

[alain06fr]

I've read so many posts comparing Guillaume and Gabriella's skating skills, talking about Guillaume as being a fantastic ice dancer, Gabriella being a "mediocre" partner. Some people are even saying Guillaume should dance with someone else. I don't agree at all with such statements. They simply don't match with the reality. Moreover, being World champion means and implies much more for a couple than having great skating skills.

First, maddiesparks last post gives a very accurate description of Gabriella and Guillaume's complementarity.

I still think VM are going to win Worlds this year, but I must admit that after watching Europeans, PC have definitely refined their FD and they performed with a freedom like they haven't (IMO) been able to all season. Perhaps it was the lack of VM that eased up their nerves? I wasn't a fan of the changes they'd made in SD though, but they were minor and mostly choreographic.

For those who know a bit Gabriella and Guillaume, this couple has something probably unique in ice dance: They started in the same rink together when they were kids, being coached by Gabriella's mother. A quite unusual configuration I must say. Gabriella's mother would tell you she quickly understood Guillaume had a huge potential only one year after he started skating. As for Gabriella, she was clearly the best female skater in the rink, it really made sense to put them together.

The other amazing thing is Gabriella and Guillaume are two skaters with very different characters and personalities. They have their own world and separate private life. For example, don't expect them to leave the rink together! After their first World title in Shanghai, the int'l press was really curious to understand their unique relationship. In April 2015, L'Equipe published a long and famous interview of Guillaume, explaining why they are "in fusion" on the ice while having completely different life outside the rink. You may find it weird but having different characters is definitely one of their strengths. They have complementary personalities, one reassure and bring something to the other and vice-versas. Coaches in Montréal got really surprised when they realised Gabriella and Guillaume almost never have arguments nor disputes! As Marie France said, the first time they had a dispute, all coaches were just laughing while thinking "Ah! Finally...".

Regarding the skating skills, criticisms against Gabriella are not justified at all. A couple can't be triple European champion and double World champion if one member of the couple is mediocre or has skating skills too weak compared to the other. If one is weak then the couple is weak. It can't be otherwise. To be at the top, especially for a young couple (she was 19 and he was 20 in 2015), both must have outstanding skating skills, fantastic artistic skills, great technical skills and perform in a total symbiosis.

Dancing in a perfect osmosis is another strength. As Guillaume pointed out, they grew together and they know each other by heart. They know their bodies by heart. When they meet up at the rink, they don't need to talk. He knows at first glance whether she is fine or she had a bad night. Same for her regarding him. They are in the end like brother and sister. Somehow, Gabriella and Guillaume were destined to be one of the best ice dance couple.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

P/C came along when two of the greatest ice dance teams in history stepped away from the sport, and simultaneously the greatest national power in history was in a major competitive doldrums (which still continues). Someone had to win.

P/C are good. So are the Shibs. So are W/P. So are C/B. So are the Russians. But none of them are great when compared to V/M or D/W or the Russian legends.

To pretend otherwise is delusional.

2 teams left. Russia was struggling, yes, but still P/C jumped from 13th to 1st.

That's not a case of "someone had to win". Nobody makes that kind of leap in the standings unless they truly bring something special to the table, which is what P/C did.

Trying to trivialize their wins because they're not as good as the Russian legends is lame - in many ways their skating runs circles around the Russian greats given the much harder difficulty they have to perform and their (IMO) genuine, organic artistry versus some of the theatrics/histrionics that used to define many legendary ice dancers in the past.