Why is it so hard to transition from Juniors to Seniors?

[Flying Feijoa]

Or they struggle with potentially career ending injuries. Some more than others.

Yep, at least 4 out of those 10 guys listed have been hit hard by that.
Years later I'm still not over Joshua retiring...

 

[yume]

Because life is not a straight shot.

I know that's a glib answer, but for men, it has little to do with growth spurts, or dedication to the sport, or practicing, or jump technique.

When i see Gogolev, Kovalev, Gummenik, etc. Who were tiny things yesterday and became giants overnight, i fail to not see their height as a reason to their struggles. There is a reason why the best jumpers ( consistent quadsters) are under 1,75m.

PS: Seriously, what Russian moms drink during pregnancy? Most of Russian men (even those who are skating for other countries) are so tall.

 

[yume]

And I've recently remembered Ting Cui - someone said she didn't qualify for US Nats this time. These are the skaters I feel sorry for the most, junior medalists who miss their senior debut with two GP spots due to injury, and then have a hard time coming back and getting assignments. -_- It must suck so much, not to know if one will be able to get those two spots again. It happened to Samsonov this season, who was also about to debut; we'll see if he can come back and regain those two spots eventually. Sometimes you get super lucky (like Yuhana Yokoi this season - not all that much success in seniors so far, but many Japanese women are WD this year, or are ineligible, so she's going to 4CC despite no points yet this season, and no top 10 last Nationals finish). But sometimes you get really unlucky. Sometimes one needs to change countries to become relevant in seniors (Gubanova).
Sometimes skaters struggle with both motivation and health issues (Marin Honda, who has been kind of fading after her first senior season).

Oh Ting Cui. She was the next big thing for me. Her jumps were so impressive. Life is unfair.

 

[4everchan]

I should have clarified. I’m more thinking about athletes who are very successful on the Junior level (JGPF medalists/world medalists) and then try (sometimes for years) to be successful in seniors and never really do it. A recent example (so far) in the US would be Camden. (JGP Gold Medalist, JGPF silver medalist, Junior US champion). No senior medals of any color, either National or international, that I can find.

sure but my answers could have been the same... when one grows up, the objectives may vary. Camden or others may no longer want to focus exclusively on figure skating when there are tons of other things available to them... Even Nathan has made clear that his education is a priority. Very few manage to do both.

For Camden, , if you want to talk strictly about sport, I can give you my personal interpretation he was a talented junior guy and what made him stand out was his skating skills... his jumping ability was not as good as some other juniors already... In seniors, he did get better and stabilized his 3a and even acquired a 4toe. (I didn't follow him as much recently) but while he was doing this, guys were getting 4lutz etc...

Keep in mind that juniors is a small pond that may contain bigger fish... the bigger fish may get there because they have had more years to develop (older or doing the sport a bit longer at elite level) but when they transfer to senior, then. the pond is an ocean... Only the strongest ones will survive and thrive.

Canada has had many great examples of that lately. Nam Nguyen, world junior champion, Andrei Rogozine, world junior champion (who vanished quickly), Nicolas Nadeau, world junior silver medalist (injuries- now moving to pairs) (behind Daniel Samohin who has been struggling a lot) in seniors)

In my field, it is often seen as well and sometimes explained with this : when younger, the very talented children get a lot of attention and recognition, and much support as their level of competence is clearly above the pack... but then, as they grow up, they are compared to others, not restricted to age or location but worldwide... the young artists (skaters in this case) then have to really dig deep to figure out if they want to get to the next level, with all the work and sacrifices that it implies, or if they have reached their own personal goals already.

Final example, when I was young, I was a competitive swimmer.. I had an early growth spurt. At 14, I was already 5'10 and winning all my races (50, 100 butterfly,) but then, at 17-18, many of the guys I was beating were now 6'2 or even taller... even guys who were not even swimming and started late were passing me... I loved competition but I realised that i could do other things that I would have just as much pleasure doing. I kept swimming on the college team but for fun. I prioritized other things. In figure skating that could happen quickly when a guy realizes that he may never get the tricks needed to reach the olympics for instance... if that was the long term goal but it's unreachable, sometimes it's best to refocus.

 

[moonvine]

Yep, at least 4 out of those 10 guys listed have been hit hard by that.
Years later I'm still not over Joshua retiring...

How many of the injuries are caused by improper jump technique? Do we have a guess?

 

[ladyjane]

This thread reminds me of a feature in IFS (on the website) some time ago about the 2011 Junior Grand Prix Final and what these skaters are doing now: https://www.ifsmagazine.com/2011-junior-final-then-and-now/. Lots of issues with injuries stopping careers - although some names are still very much there!

 

[el henry]

When i see Gogolev, Kovalev, Gummenik, etc. Who were tiny things yesterday and became giants overnight, i fail to not see their height as a reason to their struggles. There is a reason why the best jumpers ( consistent quadsters) are under 1,75m.

PS: Seriously, what Russian moms drink during pregnancy? Most of Russian men (even those who are skating for other countries) are so tall.

That is true; I was thinking of American men, who tend to stay junior longer and therefore turn senior at 17 or 18. When presumably they have experienced the growth spurt (Farris, Hiwatashi, Zhou)

 

[theblade]

Agree with everything written so far. Also, the death of a coach can be a major factor. And/or parents/coaches that have a major say in a skater's training, but aren't up to the task for the long term and that skater loses momentum and languishes.

 

[figureskatingfan22]

Another reason is that it's hard to predict how much a skater can develop. Will a junior skater be able to learn the more difficult elements of the top senior skaters? Will the junior skater be able to develop similar PCS skills as the top senior skaters? Usually the requirements to medal in a junior championships are lower than to medal in a senior championships. But not every skater is able to learn the more difficult elements/PCS skills required in the top senior scene. Just 1 example: Andrei Mozalev won several Junior Grand Prix with 2 4Toes in the FP. But he struggles to learn an additional quad. Ilia Malinin competed in the same Junior Grand Prix Season as Andrei Mozalev and had only triples back than. Now he already has 3 stable quads and landed the other 2 quads in training.

 

[mrrice]

Yep, at least 4 out of those 10 guys listed have been hit hard by that.
Years later I'm still not over Joshua retiring...

Neither am I. I felt like Joshua was just coming into his own when he skated to Give Me Love and Schindler's List. Then, he had that horrible concussion that derailed his career. Like you, I'm still not over his abrupt exit from skating.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

How many of the injuries are caused by improper jump technique? Do we have a guess?

It's kind of hard to pinpoint...

Samsonov has Osgood-Schlatter's which is growth-related, but muscle loading during this growth phase (affected by e.g. technique or training intensity) plays an important role in managing the condition.

Farris, I guess he just had incredibly bad luck with successive bad concussions. I don't know if this could be linked with technique, as he always looked pretty straight in the air.

Samohin did have a gory shoulder dislocation in competition a few years back, but I don't think that is ailing him now. He just seems to fall a lot for some reason nowadays, not sure if it's technical (rushed takeoff?) or just psychological.

Erokhov had stress fractures in his foot, a type of repetitive strain injury for which the general list of contributing factors (biomechanics of picking, training load, equipment issues, nutritional deficiencies) might include technique.

 

[sc8]

I agree with the comments thus far - as hard as it is to read some names of really talented skaters who didn’t get the time in the spotlight we were hoping to see. This conversation shows the fragility of our sport and how fortunate we are to have others we love transition successfully. Athletes face so many obstacles in and out of sport.

 

[rollerblade]

PS: Seriously, what Russian moms drink during pregnancy? Most of Russian men (even those who are skating for other countries) are so tall.

Just water, according to @elektra blue.

 

[4everchan]

one of the reasons why I do not get "attached" to juniors is this... i followed them more a few years ago... not anymore

 

[moonvine]

one of the reasons why I do not get "attached" to juniors is this... i followed them more a few years ago... not anymore

You should try getting attached to Junior Pairs…

 

[4everchan]

You should try getting attached to Junior Pairs…

never ever have i ever hahaha plus with the great Russian pairs in seniors, just coming out of junior years, we get the best of both worlds LOL

 

[Tinymavy15]

Another reason is that it's hard to predict how much a skater can develop. Will a junior skater be able to learn the more difficult elements of the top senior skaters? Will the junior skater be able to develop similar PCS skills as the top senior skaters? Usually the requirements to medal in a junior championships are lower than to medal in a senior championships. But not every skater is able to learn the more difficult elements/PCS skills required in the top senior scene. Just 1 example: Andrei Mozalev won several Junior Grand Prix with 2 4Toes in the FP. But he struggles to learn an additional quad. Ilia Malinin competed in the same Junior Grand Prix Season as Andrei Mozalev and had only triples back than. Now he already has 3 stable quads and landed the other 2 quads in training.

Agree with all this. The big thing, in dance and ladies I think is that maturity, that once you get to seniors, a certain understanding of musicality and choreography is needed to be at the top, where in juniors if you can keep up with the music and land the jumps (in ladies) you can easily win. I'm thinking of Alysa and Mao who were the cute little jumpers in juniors and then it was like ok wait there is more you need to do here....some grow and meet the challange while maintaining and also improving their jumps during growth and puberty and some don't....or take a few years to figure it out after which they may have left the sport.

 

[surimi]

How many of the injuries are caused by improper jump technique? Do we have a guess?

I'd venture a guess that technique might be a factor, but not necessarily a decisive one. Reasons to injuries can add up. My personal favorite is a case similar to Erokhov - multiple landing ankle fractures at the age of 16, and now skating on said ankle which is held together by several metal bolts. He's still chasing after the top, and is a bit buried in the competitive field of the Japanese men, but I am simply glad he's recovered from his injury, eventhough it took him a year and a half to even return to competition (jumping singles). What contributed to the injury back then? I am guessing there might have been a technique problem (I'm no expert on tech by any means), but also he was growing, and overtraining, and ignoring pain to pursue his dream of becoming JWC. Which he didn't become in the end, as the fracture happened on the morning of departure for JWC... and Samohin won it instead, and we know where he is at the moment. Fortunately, Sota's current struggles seem to be mostly mental.
Yuna Aoki's case is also similar, though for her it was the left ankle that was broken a couple of seasons ago. She was a very hopeful junior, I think her Lz was likened to Yuna Kim's, and now she's stuck with domestic events, and finished last at Nationals. I was happy to see her getting silver at a Japanese event this month though, it looks like she might be back on track.
The line of young US ladies who have vanished from major competitions is also sad; it's good to see Hanna Harrell back, but I recall Tessa Hong and Vivian Le getting praised a lot, but they never made it to seniors IIRC.

 

[mrrice]

I'd venture a guess that technique might be a factor, but not necessarily a decisive one. Reasons to injuries can add up. My personal favorite is a case similar to Erokhov - multiple landing ankle fractures at the age of 16, and now skating on said ankle which is held together by several metal bolts. He's still chasing after the top, and is a bit buried in the competitive field of the Japanese men, but I am simply glad he's recovered from his injury, eventhough it took him a year and a half to even return to competition (jumping singles). What contributed to the injury back then? I am guessing there might have been a technique problem (I'm no expert on tech by any means), but also he was growing, and overtraining, and ignoring pain to pursue his dream of becoming JWC. Which he didn't become in the end, as the fracture happened on the morning of departure for JWC... and Samohin won it instead, and we know where he is at the moment. Fortunately, Sota's current struggles seem to be mostly mental.
Yuna Aoki's case is also similar, though for her it was the left ankle that was broken a couple of seasons ago. She was a very hopeful junior, I think her Lz was likened to Yuna Kim's, and now she's stuck with domestic events, and finished last at Nationals. I was happy to see her getting silver at a Japanese event this month though, it looks like she might be back on track.
The line of young US ladies who have vanished from major competitions is also sad; it's good to see Hanna Harrell back, but I recall Tessa Hong and Vivian Le getting praised a lot, but they never made it to seniors IIRC.

Do you all remember Ann Patrice McDonough? She won Junior Worlds and was billed as the Next Michelle Kwan. I think she had one decent season as a Senior and then she burnt out. I remember seeing her during her final season and she just looked miserable. I'm sure it's hard for a parent to give up on all that invested money but, you can only push a person so far before they say, Enough Is Enough.

 

[vorravorra]

Injuries and puberty aside, this is the biggest reason. After all, one doesn’t suddenly have talent on Monday and lose that talent on Friday. Juniors and seniors have completely different fields. When you become senior, you are now skating against the top skaters in the world and you will have to do what they are doing technically to join their ranks. In the men’s field, if you want to be on the podium on the major international stage, you need to be consistent with a two-quad SP, three quad FS because that is what the top guys are doing. If you want to beat the top guy, you will need to do more. It is even harder if the skater is in a country where the top skaters in the world are there. In a field like Japan, where the top three guys in the country are also among the top five in the world and have been for a long time, it’s going to be hard for a junior skater to break through. The only way to get major international assignments will be to beat one of them and so the men will attempt difficult technical content they cannot handle. Eventually, they’ll hurt themselves or lose motivation when they fail.

This may be off-topic, but I took note of how many men attempted two-quad SP and three quad FS at Japan, US, and Russian Nationals. I'm going to mention here to illustrate a point about the Russian men in particular.



Japan – Field of 32

2 quad SP: 5. 10 quads, 8 landed cleanly. 80%

3 quad FS: 7. 26 quads. 17 landed cleanly. 65%



United States – Field of 14

2 quad SP: 3 men. 6 quads, 6 landed cleanly. 100%

3 quad FS: 3 men. 14 quads, 10 landed cleanly. 71%



Russia – Field of 18

2 squad SP: 13 men. 26 quads, 15 landed cleanly. 58%

3 quad FS: 13 men. 37 quads, 22 landed cleanly. 59%



In Japan and United States, the stats are similar. Kagiyama and Sato are new seniors and they are breaking through because they are doing what the top guys are doing and doing it somewhat consistently. A Japanese junior skater turning senior next season will have to do the same.

Unlike Japan and United States, most of the men in Russia are attempting these layouts, not just the top. I think Russian men especially do not seem to transition to seniors well. A good many were brilliant as juniors and then didn’t meet expectations as seniors. Growth spurts seem to affect them more for whatever reason, but it's not just that because it's happened too many times. I've noticed that a lot of their men are attempting very difficult jumps or combinations - I think there were at least four 4Los in the FS and even a 4S+3Lo in the SP. Russian men are often ridiculed and unfavorably compared to the ladies; you won't have to look far to see a comment that Valieva should skate the FS for the men in the Olympic team event. This can't be good for them and its contributes to why their men are attempting so many more quads than the Japanese men despite Japan having almost twice the field at their Nationals.

The current problem in Russian men's skating, if it can be called a problem, is too many young skaters of roughly similar level who feel they can make it to the top with enough luck and effort. They know what tech level it will take (at least five quads per two programs or someone else is going to the important competitions) and are not prepared to give up without a fight. This inevitably will break quite a few skaters in the process, and even if it doesn't, will bring inconsistency and consequent ridicule.