2014 Cup of China Mens Short Program 11/07

[Scovies]

A medical professional CANNOT force or prevent an athlete from continuing to compete, if the athlete is a legal adult (i.e., 18 or over). The danger can be explained over and over, and a warning given, but the choice is still the athlete's.

They can if the governing body of the sport has rules saying they can, just as a boxing referee can stop a fight if one of the competitors is too injured to continue. A person with a head injury is in no more of a position to make that call than someone would be if they were drunk or drugged.

ISU really needs to put some rules in place. I understand that this is a rare incident (I've never seen anything like this before), and why they might not have ever considered the need for such rules before, but what happened today was scary. Yan and Hanyu were lucky to walk away in one piece here; this could have been much worse.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Usually the worst incidents happen with Pairs. Some of them are truly horrific. Other accidents are collisions during warm up, with this event being one of the worst. During the Sochi gala, Hanyu actually sliced Chan's chest with his blade. It was truly fortunate that the cut was very shallow. But that could be so scary.

 

[Wo|flax]

Yes, both of their coaches confirmed that they were unconscious at one point (they passed out after getting off the rink). Han made it a few steps further than Yuzuru, who dropped the second he was off the ice and was out cold for a substantial amount of time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2FQ3uGa4ck
looks like Yuzuru made it further. I think BESP confused Han Yan and Yuzuru, since Yuzuru made it backstage and it was Han Yan lying on the floor

 

[begin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2FQ3uGa4ck
looks like Yuzuru made it further. I think BESP confused Han Yan and Yuzuru, since Yuzuru made it backstage and it was Han Yan lying on the floor

Oh I meant who first started to pass out. Yuzu was already out of it before he got through the boards.

 

[Sabrina]

Traumatic shock may trigger vasodilation in some territories and overall blood pressure falls quickly, and that is the condition that may prompt changing position (lay down to keep the brain blood circulation) or if it happens too quickly pass out happens. This may have no connection with a head injury. It is unclear in the video if Han was unconscious or just feeling just exhausted.

 

[rain]

They can if the governing body of the sport has rules saying they can, just as a boxing referee can stop a fight if one of the competitors is too injured to continue. A person with a head injury is in no more of a position to make that call than someone would be if they were drunk or drugged.

ISU really needs to put some rules in place. I understand that this is a rare incident (I've never seen anything like this before), and why they might not have ever considered the need for such rules before, but what happened today was scary. Yan and Hanyu were lucky to walk away in one piece here; this could have been much worse.

This. Absolutely.

 

[Aesthetics]

AprilS, let's not talk about the COC, such a tragedy. I really hope Worlds will be relocated. I don't really like Nam because he's too slow, but kudos to him for his consistency.

For those who've seen Hanyu in real life, is he among the faster male skaters? On screen, it looks like he's whipping across the ice and hurling into his jumps.

Yes, Yuzuru and Patrick Chan are the fastest male skaters I've watched in recent years. Hanyu once looked too rushed and couldn't control himself before, but he's improved a lot that now he's very fast but with more control and carriage.

 

[Sandpiper]

Medical staff should've been on hand for immediate treatment. And they should decide whether the skaters can go on the ice.

This isn't because Yuzuru and Han Yan are too immature. This is because they a) were probably dazed and not thinking clearly--can hardly be expected to make the right decision in that state b) are not professionals and may not know the true danger of their injuries.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

They can if the governing body of the sport has rules saying they can, just as a boxing referee can stop a fight if one of the competitors is too injured to continue. A person with a head injury is in no more of a position to make that call than someone would be if they were drunk or drugged.

Exactly.

ISU really needs to put some rules in place. I understand that this is a rare incident (I've never seen anything like this before), and why they might not have ever considered the need for such rules before, but what happened today was scary. Yan and Hanyu were lucky to walk away in one piece here; this could have been much worse.

When I heard about what happened with Yuzura and Han (Eurosport were on adverts, so I didn't actually see it until later), my first thought was of a collision from a couple of years ago:

2012: Song Nan colliding with Adam Rippon

But, it was not until I went to YouTube there now to find the video that I discovered that this earlier collision was not only also at the Cup of China, it was at the same venue!!!

There are some differences here compared to what happened yesterday. Firstly, Nan was not instantly knocked out. He was not only conscious straight afterwards, but he was also aware enough to realise that it could do more harm than good if he attempted to get up when Adam immediately offered him a hand to get up.

It was a few seconds after Adam left that we saw the effects of the impact set upon Nan. Sergei Voronov went over to check if he was alright, but unfortunately the TV coverage then cut to replays of the collision.

It is here that we start seeing the similarities to what happened yesterday.

When we came back from the replays, Nan was still lying in the middle of the ice with other skaters still going around the rink in circles.

It took until A FULL MINUTE after the collision for somebody to come onto the ice and see to Nan. And all he did was bundle Nan up, and oxter-cog him off the ice. And during all this, the other skaters were STILL on the ice (they actually came off through the gate just before Nan and his minder arrived at it).

And, once Nan arrived at the gate, he practically collapsed over the gap. Just like we saw yesterday.

In this case, Song Nan withdrew (he had been 5th in the SP), while Adam Rippon continued on and finished 4th (he was 4th in both segments as well).


But what concerns me is that this was 2 years ago. And yet we saw EXACTLY the same delays and confusion occur at EXACTLY the same venue.

Proper procedures should have been put in place after this collision in 2012.

They were not, and we saw a carbon-copy repeat in 2014.

The ISU NEEDS to put them in place NOW.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Esopian]

^ Agree 100%, I was watching the footage and immediately wondered why the medical staff didn't go to them within 10 seconds (or even 2 seconds)!

It's like in an official soccer match if a player gets injured, the game halts right away and the medical team arrives in a flash. Why can't they expect the same here? There are clearly issues with the planning of the medical team (or did they just think it's a rather safe sport and forget to organize this better)? :think:

 

[Meoima]

I'm still baffled why did all the aldults in the rink let these kids went out and performed!!!
I can't get angry at these kids, given their condition and state of mind by that time. Adrenaline still high.
But there're so many adults around!!!

 

[satine]

^ Agree 100%, I was watching the footage and immediately wondered why the medical staff didn't go to them within 10 seconds (or even 2 seconds)!

It's like in an official soccer match if a player gets injured, the game halts right away and the medical team arrives in a flash. Why can't they expect the same here? There are clearly issues with the planning of the medical team (or did they just think it's a rather safe sport and forget to organize this better)? :think:

The medical staff took about 50 seconds to get out there from the videos I've seen. In some pairs accidents I was rewatching, they got out there in less than half that time. It also looks like that for some reason it was decided to get the other four skaters off of the rink first, which probably attributes to why it took so long.

 

[iceberg]

Hanyu gets high 90 to 100 plus points for his short programs so that score is way lower and the right score for someone on such a high level.

I don't think you can get that high score without landing a quad. That score is just fitted.

11points behind his rival Machida after the SP. this is getting really interesting! I hope for Hanyu's very best recovery though for a more exciting competition on the GPF.

 

[Geo1]

Relax. I don't think Hanuy and Han Yan will commit suicide. Have you ever had an accident? Don't worry. They are well.

You really have no clue as to the seriousness of this injury. Louisa05 is absolutely correct regarding the potential consequences of concussions. I am a retired personal injury lawyer and represented many clients with concussions over the course of 35 years. From the slow-motion videos of the collision, it appears that Yuzuru suffered a classic head injury. He probably will not commit suicide, but may have significant symptoms and consequences including short-term memory loss, chronic headaches, vertigo, personality change and loss of cognitive function. A lot of the time, these changes are very subtle and not apparent to the casual observer; however, they can have very significant consequences for the person suffering from them. I'm not saying that this is what will happen as a result of this unfortunate incident. I am only pointing out that any concussion of this kind may have significant consequences. The fact that Yuzuru fell 5 times during his free skate speaks for itself. His eyes looked unfocused at times after the collision.

I was appalled that the 2 people who came out on the ice to Yuzuru after the collision got him to stand up and skate off the ice. He was way too unsteady for that. They should have placed him on a stretcher and removed him from the ice in that manner. It did not appear to me that they did any kind of medical examination to determine whether he was capable of getting off the ice on his feet. I agree with others that the ISU needs to set a protocol for this type of injury and have a medical doctor available in competitions to make the decision as to whether or not skater should be able to continue after suffering injury.

I am hoping that you are right and that both of these young men will recover from their injuries without any sequelae.

 

[Mista Ekko]

Exactly.



When I heard about what happened with Yuzura and Han (Eurosport were on adverts, so I didn't actually see it until later), my first thought was of a collision from a couple of years ago:

2012: Song Nan colliding with Adam Rippon

But, it was not until I went to YouTube there now to find the video that I discovered that this earlier collision was not only also at the Cup of China, it was at the same venue!!!

Oh my GOD!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKU_xE_dtLY

This was in China too !!!

Beijing though...

I still say China is the new crash capital for men.

 

[STB]

A medical professional CANNOT force or prevent an athlete from continuing to compete, if the athlete is a legal adult (i.e., 18 or over). The danger can be explained over and over, and a warning given, but the choice is still the athlete's.

I am pretty sure Menshov was slightly older than 18 or 20 when he had a terrible injury at the World Team Trophy. Guess what. It was the Russian doctor who break his hands and said "No".
Neither Menshov nor his coach had any say.

 

[Meoima]

I am pretty sure Menshov was slightly older than 18 or 20 when he had a terrible injury at the World Team Trophy. Guess what. It was the Russian doctor who break his hands and said "No".
Neither Menshov nor his coach had any say.

So maybe the reason was because JSF didn't have any official doctor on the scene? And the US doctor has no power over Japanese skater. It's so fortunate that she was there to help.

 

[Vanshilar]

While concussions can be serious, I think people should refrain from doing so much Monday morning armchair quarterbacking. I don't know if it was clear immediately after the collision that either skater had received a concussion, or were unconscious. Yan was holding his nose/chin area immediately after the collision and was able to sit up within 10 seconds of the collision. Hanyu was also holding his nose/chin area as well as his stomach, and was more or less continuously moving throughout. They were clearly in pain and had the wind knocked out of them but it doesn't look like they were unconscious. I didn't see any point where Hanyu was holding the side of his head or otherwise indicating that he had been hit there. The medical staff tried to help Hanyu up but he more or less got up on his own and skated around a bit without wobble or dizziness (nearing the exit, he was bending over a bit but it seems like he was coughing or short of breath more than anything else).

Some people have said they went unconscious, but it doesn't look like it, at least not while they were on the ice. If they went unconscious after getting off the ice, there's a variety of causes, not the least of which that they had the wind knocked out of them and were in pain -- again, not necessarily from a concussion. (Heck, my wife will often need to lean on something for a bit after getting up from the couch because she'll be dizzy -- she has very low blood pressure.) If I had someone shoulder me in the chest while skating at full speed I might just pass out from lack of breath regardless of if my head were hit.

I guess my main point is to not jump to conclusions right away about the medical staff immediately knowing the skaters might have had concussions. We have the advantage of slow-motion video footage afterwards but that's long after the incident happened. As far as the medical staff knew at the time, there had been a collision with both skaters in pain but still able to move around (not unconscious) -- they don't know where the hit had been (other than chins), and the symptoms point to a lot of possible causes, not the least of which that both skaters were simply out of breath.

Having said that, my main concern is about them letting Hanyu onto the ice after they patched up his injury to the side of his head and thus knew he had been hit there -- I mean, his head was in a bandage for crying out loud, so the wound was obvious. I'm not a medical expert, but I would think that even if they don't know what caused it (we now know it was due to him colliding with Yan's chin -- a hard object) they would think that anything strong enough to make him bleed there would be cause for concern about possible damage to his brain, especially since he's doing jumps which involve very fast in-air spins which could exacerbate any injuries. (I hope I'm calculating something wrong here but if he rotates about 5 times per second in the air during a jump, and the brain were 15 cm wide, a back-of-the-envelope calculation applying a=v^2/r implies the side of his head was accelerating by about 74 m/s^2 during the jumps which is about 7.6 times the force of gravity.) I guess I'm not as concerned about him falling (my understanding is that part of the reason why allowable figure skating jumps are all in one orientation only -- head up -- is to reduce the chance of head injuries from falling) as much as the brain being sloshed around during jumps (and on-ice spins). The concerns are, of course, relative.

With Yan it's a bit more questionable whether or not he did receive a concussion. Some places said he lost consciousness afterwards (i.e. while being examined or something) but that may simply be from trying to get up too soon for example off the ice -- he took a shoulder to the chest. Other than the hit to the chin it's not clear to me that there's any potential head trauma.

I do agree that it's sort of odd how long it took for medical personnel to get onto the ice; maybe they should have a whistle or something to let all skaters know to get off the ice right away and send the personnel onto the ice right away while the other skaters are filing toward the exit.

 

[Camillo]

I am pretty sure Menshov was slightly older than 18 or 20 when he had a terrible injury at the World Team Trophy. Guess what. It was the Russian doctor who break his hands and said "No".
Neither Menshov nor his coach had any say.

Just to clarify some facts, what incident are you referring to?

I know one, at WTT2013:
Menshov was not 18-20, he was 30.
He was 3rd after SP. During LP he succeded 4T+combo, 4T, but after 3A he fell onto his arm and obviously couldn't continue the program because of shoulder dislocation.
(By the way, he had already an injury like that in 2009, I don't know the details though)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sCuZxlpYPc

 

[msteach3]

So maybe the reason was because JSF didn't have any official doctor on the scene? And the US doctor has no power over Japanese skater. It's so fortunate that she was there to help.

I'm confused with the mention of Yuzu's "trainer/doctor" helping him backstage and then again as he comes out to warm up. Who is that man? Is he not the Japanese team doctor? If he's just the team trainer that does not make him a doctor as some have said. If the JSF didn't provide the team with an onsight doctor as the American team had, then this seems to be the main problem. If the Chinese team also did not have a doctor present, than this is possibly why Han skated after the accident. Perhaps it's not the ISU who deserves blame here but the federations themselves.

It is not fair to blame the coaches or team chaperones for being negligent. If they are not medical doctors they cannot make the call to skate or not to skate as they can't diagnose the injuries.

I do agree that it's sort of odd how long it took for medical personnel to get onto the ice; maybe they should have a whistle or something to let all skaters know to get off the ice right away and send the personnel onto the ice right away while the other skaters are filing toward the exit.

I agree 100%. Also, I found it very strange that none of the other skaters offered a hand or showed any concern whatsoever for either of these boys. Instead they continued to skate around them. Bizarre.