2014 Rostelecom Cup Men's Free Skate 11/15

[balletanddancefan]

A much criticized state of affairs. The International Skating Union persists in shooting itself in the foot. Fans do not protest, they just fade away.

Or a gymnast can make small mistakes but can not win if it falls four times.

 

[Mathman]

The figure skating judging system takes the following point of view. Every single thing that you do gains an extra tenth of a point of so. On a jump, if you manage to get yourself into the air and make it around even once, you get a fractional part of a point. On a quad, if you make it all the way around four times before falling on your head, you get full base value, with deductions for the fall.

To me, this is contrary to the spirit of sport. Do or do not (to quote Yoda. )

On the other hand, woe to the skater who tacks an extra double toe loop onto a triple Lutz when two minutes earlier she popoed her 3T+2T into 2T+2T. She loses credit for the Lutz. :shocked:

 

[Interspectator]

The figure skating judging system takes the following point of view. Every single thing that you do gains an extra tenth of a point of so. On a jump, if you manage to get yourself into the air and make it around even once, you get a fractional part of a point. On a quad, if you make it all the way around four times before falling on your head, you get full base value, with deductions for the fall.

To me, this is contrary to the spirit of sport. Do or do not (to quote Yoda. )

On the other hand, woe to the skater who tacks an extra double toe loop onto a triple Lutz when two minutes earlier she popoed her 3T+2T into 2T+2T. She loses credit for the Lutz. :shocked:

A totally nuts, bonkers, batty, cooky, crazy, cracked and crumpled state of affairs.
Mathman for ISU president!

 

[Violet Bliss]

The figure skating judging system takes the following point of view. Every single thing that you do gains an extra tenth of a point of so. On a jump, if you manage to get yourself into the air and make it around even once, you get a fractional part of a point. On a quad, if you make it all the way around four times before falling on your head, you get full base value, with deductions for the fall.

To me, this is contrary to the spirit of sport. Do or do not (to quote Yoda. )

So, almost nobody did. And we had Olympic and World champions without quads.

Patrick had a long term plan with quads included but delayed a season due to injury in 2009. He wasn't so late in getting the quad at 19 because few had it at the time and the few that did were inconsistent or couldn't do anything else decently. Patrick's quads were exceptional in two ways: he was the first to perform quads with amazing footwork, and secondly, he had a very short learning curve (within a season) in having consistent quads in competitions without negatively and seriously affecting the rest of the program, something that took most skaters years to do or never.

Once the new ground was broken, we now have skaters with good footwork and quads, some at a very young age. Arguably, this would not have happened if quad falls were overly penalized and would certainly not have happened if a fall would wipe out all quad value.

 

[AprilS]

To me, this is contrary to the spirit of sport. Do or do not (to quote Yoda. )

How about doubling a jump then? Or a wrong edge on a flip or lutz?
For example, a skater might more-or-less do a quad... then catch an edge and fall on the landing (in your theory, thereby gaining 0 points).
Another skater might double a quad, therefore not doing the jump intended (and in your theory get some points).
Or how about another skater that flutzes? The lutz is not done because the jump was wrong from the take off (still gaining points).
(this might be getting off topic, but if a fall is a jump that failed on the landing, a flutz or lip is a jump that failed on the take-off)

In any case, if quad falls get 0 points, we will never see any progress. I for one, would like to see a 4A landed in competition one day (if the skater doesn't hurt themselves). That will never happen if risks are so heavily punished. In short, I don't support 0 points for a fall, but I do support successively increasing deductions for multiple falls. Also, I agree that the Zayaking rule for combinations is silly.

(btw, I'm replying to your reply to balletanddancefan, but I don't know how to quote both of you).

 

[wordsworthgirl]

Just posted on Jason's Twitter/Instagram:

This has been an extremely difficult and emotional week. My manager, Shep Goldberg, passed the morning I left for Russia, and I want to dedicate last nights free skate to him...It wasn't perfect, but I fought and gave it everything I had just like he has always done. My thoughts and prayers go out to his family. Over the past 8 months we've worked together, he's left such an impact on my life. #integrity #class #rolemodel

I'd suspected that Shep's death might be one of the reasons he seemed particularly sluggish and off in the short program. and his breaking down after the free seemed a bit unusual too. Now we now just how much the loss of his mentor affected him. What a good kid he is.

 

[karne]

I keep hoping that the men's FS was some kind of bad dream I had last night....

 

[Sandpiper]

Congratulations to Javi for making GPF! Maybe not the most elegant winning skate, but I think he'll take it.

Congratulations to Voronov and Brezina as well. Not really my style of programs (well, Brezina's was okay, except when the vocals kicked in), but I'm happy for both of them. Huge lift on the jumps from both.

Misha is really starting to make an impact. I'd have no problem with Blades of Passion's placements for him here and at CoC, and the fantasy Misha making GPF. :yay:

Good on Jason for fighting back in the free.

Max, Takahiko... I can't even say too much about the second mark, because their routines were just too flawed. I hope Max works on embodying the character a bit more. It's a good program for him; he just needs to extent his arms a bit more, pay more attention to his expression... I'm also bizarrely disappointed by Righini of all people: expected at least a good show, but he just spent a lot of time setting up jumps... which turned out not-so-great anyway.

But all in all, a good men's competition. No perfect skates, but quite a few solid ones.

 

[balletanddancefan]

The figure skating judging system takes the following point of view. Every single thing that you do gains an extra tenth of a point of so. On a jump, if you manage to get yourself into the air and make it around even once, you get a fractional part of a point. On a quad, if you make it all the way around four times before falling on your head, you get full base value, with deductions for the fall.

To me, this is contrary to the spirit of sport. Do or do not (to quote Yoda. )

On the other hand, woe to the skater who tacks an extra double toe loop onto a triple Lutz when two minutes earlier she popoed her 3T+2T into 2T+2T. She loses credit for the Lutz. :shocked:

Thanks! I start to understand The scores are more similar as in rithmical gymnastic, but this last is more logical, look at paginas 22, 23, 24 http://www.fig-gymnastics.com/publicdir/rules/files/rg/RG CoP 2013-2016 (English) Feb 2013.pdf

 

[Mathman]

(btw, I'm replying to your reply to balletanddancefan, but I don't know how to quote both of you).

"Multiquote" is at the bottom right of each post. It looks like a quotation mark in a speech bubble. Click this for each post that you want to quote. Don't forget to unclick afterword, or the same quotes will come up the next time you post to the thread.

On the subject of encouraging athletes to push the envelop by forgiving mistakes on hard elements, I don't buy it. I believe that skaters like Patrick Chan would rise to the challenge even if the risks were greater. On the contrary, if you could get credit only for well done quads, I believe we would see more well done quads.

Or how about another skater that flutzes? The lutz is not done because the jump was wrong from the take off (still gaining points).
(this might be getting off topic, but if a fall is a jump that failed on the landing, a flutz or lip is a jump that failed on the take-off)

Food for thought, food for thought. You could easily convince me that the ISU rules are too lenient on take-off edges, too.

 

[Mrs. P]

When you fall on a fully rotated jump, the Max points you lose is 4. 3 points for GOE and 1 point deduction. With a UR, you lose 30 percent on the BV plus - GOE.

So on a quad toeloop you fall but rotate, you still get 6.3 points. If you UR it, the BV goes down 3.09 points plus you lose GOE usually like 2 points. You're now down to 5.21 points. So the point system state UR is worse that falling on a rotating jump. But is it?

On a triple lutz you fall on, the fall penalty brings the jump to 2 points. A flute brings the BV to 4.62 points. Plus negative GOE.

The point system considers certain errors more grave than others, but why that is isn't clearly stated or explained.

 

[Mathman]

I think our athletes are tougher than we give them credit for. The partial credit system promotes a "fake it till you make it" mentality, but I think competitive skaters would strive to be the best they can even without the coddling. JMO.

 

[balletanddancefan]

When you fall on a fully rotated jump, the Max points you lose is 4. 3 points for GOE and 1 point deduction. With a UR, you lose 30 percent on the BV plus - GOE.

So on a quad toeloop you fall but rotate, you still get 6.3 points. If you UR it, the BV goes down 3.09 points plus you lose GOE usually like 2 points. You're now down to 5.21 points. So the point system state UR is worse that falling on a rotating jump. But is it?

On a triple lutz you fall on, the fall penalty brings the jump to 2 points. A flute brings the BV to 4.62 points. Plus negative GOE.

The point system considers certain errors more grave than others, but why that is isn't clearly stated or explained.

In gymnastics the maximum score is 10 points. To 1 fall judges can subtract 1 point! 10%!

 

[Violet Bliss]

I think our athletes are tougher than we give them credit for. The partial credit system promotes a "fake it till you make it" mentality, but I think competitive skaters would strive to be the best they can even without the coddling. JMO.

This is like someone in the palace or presidential mansion (or generally rich old men) telling poor young men to be good soldiers and die for their country.

We fans don't appreciate enough the costs of doing quads - how much a skater has to invest in training for it and the risks both physically and in competitive performances and results. The whole skating and possible post competitive careers may be sacrificed.

In many sports, there is usually just one objective and the results are simple to measure - faster, higher, or stronger. In figure skating, the levels and diversity of skills are a very wide spread. For jumps, each addition revolution in the air represents probably three times the difficulty and risks. Risks have to be appropriately rewarded even if the appropriateness is debatable. But all or nothing is not appropriate IMO.

Attempts should be encouraged and supported in order for a few truly amazing epitomes to emerge. Or we can have many safe pretty programs. Now we may debate which is more sporty.

 

[HanDomi]

This is like someone in the palace or presidential mansion (or generally rich old men) telling poor young men to be good soldiers and die for their country.

We fans don't appreciate enough the costs of doing quads - how much a skater has to invest in training for it and the risks both physically and in competitive performances and results. The whole skating and possible post competitive careers may be sacrificed.

In many sports, there is usually just one objective and the results are simple to measure - faster, higher, or stronger. In figure skating, the levels and diversity of skills are a very wide spread. For jumps, each addition revolution in the air represents probably three times the difficulty and risks. Risks have to be appropriately rewarded even if the appropriateness is debatable. But all or nothing is not appropriate IMO.

Well for me, credit for rotated quad is good and understandable. Achieving 4th rotation itself is very , very hard, so for me the jumps scoring system (rotations, pops etc) is very good, falls can be punished more independently from jumps scoring system

 

[Sandpiper]

I don't buy the "reward badly done jumps or else no one will attempt anything" stuff. 6.0 was harsh on falls, and prized clean elements (but not as much as its critics like to think). But we saw the sport grow and move forward under that system.

What 6.0 does not encourage was constantly attempting jumps you couldn't land most of the time. So, perhaps, under COP my favourite skaters would've gotten some jumps/combinations they didn't get in 6.0. But... I'd rather not. I'd rather they skated well 80% of the time and never landed that quad lutz or 3Lz-3Lo, versus the likely alternative: getting the quad lutz or 3Lz-3Lo ratified 1-2 times in their career, but marring many of their iconic performances with bad attempts.

I don't think falls should be 0. They should just be worth the same amount as the jump of one rotation less (e.g. fall on quad toe? You get the base value of a triple toe).

Of course, most of this doesn't have a lot to do with the current competition. Thankfully, most of the jumps here were landed, or at least not fallen on.

 

[Winnie_20]

Only had time to sit down and watch all of yesterday's recorded events today. Congratulations Javier Fernandez! :dance: Just a bit sad about Kozuka, but thrilled for Voronov, Brezina and Ge, and for Brown showing he can do way better. Great job, all of them.

 

[AprilS]

"Multiquote" is at the bottom right of each post. It looks like a quotation mark in a speech bubble. Click this for each post that you want to quote. Don't forget to unclick afterword, or the same quotes will come up the next time you post to the thread.

Thanks!

 

[Mathman]

This is like someone in the palace or presidential mansion (or generally rich old men) telling poor young men to be good soldiers and die for their country.-

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration.

My favorite skater is Michelle Kwan (and IMHO, what she has accomplished in her life after skating is ten times more to be admired than her many skating triumphs). She never did get that strong, deep, secure outside edge take-off on her triple Lutz down pat. I would have no problem if Michelle had skated under a scoring system that came down hard on wrong-edge take-offs. Michelle would either have had to work even harder on that skill, or else she would have had to take the triple Lutz out of her programs and replace it with some other jump that she could do properly.

Anyway, Michelle Kwan got rich and moved into the mansion without my help or hindrance. As for the current judging system, the ISU has made it's bed and now must lie in it.

 

[karne]

I think the problem is we have proof that if the penalty for falling/failing is "too harsh" they will stop pushing themselves. That proof is the quadrennial between 2006-2010. The proof is the fact that at the 2002 Games the men needed a quad in the short and two in the long just to even think about the top five, and then by 2010 a quad was no longer even necessary.