2015 US Nationals Senior Ladies FS Jan 24

[Miss Ice]

hopefully wagner can somehow duplicate her performance here in this year's worlds..

how old is karen?? if she can survive the growth spurt i think she has the chance to battle the russians in the future..

Karen is 15, will be 16 this August. So she could potentially compete senior next year.

Also, what time is the gala? Will it be broadcasted on ice network?

 

[creaturelover]

hopefully wagner can somehow duplicate her performance here in this year's worlds..

how old is karen?? if she can survive the growth spurt i think she has the chance to battle the russians in the future..

15 Years

 

[[email protected]]

A view from the overseas. Ashley was the best - no doubt. Quite a powerful overall impression. Technically I am still skeptical about her lutz - it just looks strange. Well, the score is ridiculous - I think it is done for the international panels if she is clean: "look she had 148, and she is clean, why don't you give her at least 140?". With the current setups if all the Russians and Ashley are clean she will get the bronze - I still think she is not at par with Liza and Elena technically and their pcs is now at the same level. But she will win over Anna - same as GPF. If Ashley is clean (no 2 foot landings, solid flips instead of shaky lutzes) and our leaders are not then she can even win the worlds gold. As I said the nationals scoring is part of this scenario: there are no other real contenders this season. Next season with potential comeback of Adelina, Yulia and showing up of Sima and Zhenya Ashley will struggle big time during the GP season to get into GPF.

Polina has the growth challenge for sure - her jumps are smaller than last year. But she was much better now than during the GP - can get into top 10 in the worlds if she concentates. Although I got 0 points betting on her during the prediction game I think that long term she is US no. 1 at least now

Karen Chen is lovely. I saw that during JGP - she was my favorite among non-Russians. She reminds me of Satoko but I like her skating better. But, of course, thinking now of her 2018 chances is too early. And at least for me she cannot yet match Yulia during her previous season.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I find this bit intresting.:thumbsup: How do you, Blades of Passion, feel that this compares to the 3 russians who are likely going to compete at worlds (Liza, Lena, Anna). Are their movements between elements and leading up to jumps more difficult?

The Russians all do less crossovers than Ashley. Liza doesn't have more direct transitions into jumps than Ashley, but she does do constant steps leading into all of her spins. She and Ashley have basically the exact same program structure, but look at how Liza's two spins have more leading up to them in the first half of the program, whereas Ashley just clumps her elements together (2Axel+2Toe, Flying Sit, Combo Spin). Ashley stays in that center area of the ice for 50 seconds of the program, from the lead-up of the 2Axel up through the slow-section posing.

 

[Sandpiper]

The Russians all do less crossovers than Ashley. Liza doesn't have more direct transitions into jumps than Ashley, but she does do constant steps leading into all of her spins. She and Ashley have basically the exact same program structure, but look at how Liza's two spins have more leading up to them in the first half of the program, whereas Ashley just clumps her elements together (2Axel+2Toe, Flying Sit, Combo Spin). Ashley stays in that center area of the ice for 50 seconds of the program, from the lead-up of the 2Axel up through the slow-section posing.

In the SP, I'd say Liza should get a higher TR score. She does clear steps before her lutz, a difficult spiral entry to her 2A (with excellent exit), and doesn't telegraph her 3-3 as much as she does in the LP. Ashley's approach to her 3-3 is a bit... strange, so I don't know what to say there. She does have a wonderful spread eagle entry and exit to her 3F. However, her 2A is very basic, which is the tiebreaker for me. She also does a lot more stroking around than Liza does. (I still like the SP, but I've come to agree with you that it needs a bit more).

The LP, however, is a closer call. They just have very opposite approaches to this whole "transitions" thing. Liza has clear steps before both lutzes, which should count for something, but her other jumps do not have Ashley's obvious difficult entries. However, Liza makes up for it by having more transitions coming out of her jumps (probably because she has great control and flow on the landing, which allows her to do this). Her program also has fewer "breather sections"--she does have one slow section, but it's shorter than Ashley's, and even there she seems to be interpreting the music more through arm movement as opposed to Ashley's facial expressions. I never really noticed what they do before/after the spins, so I can't comment there.

Where we seem to disagree is whether more transitions would help their programs. I believe... no. I like Elena very much, but I'm not a fan of her LP this year. The sheer volume of stuff that she does never gives her a chance to hold a position or really interpret the music (except for the ChSq at the end, which is my favourite part). It actually works better for her crazy J.Lo SP because the music calls for her to be frantic. But in the LP, if Liza and Ashley go clean, they are my top 2.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The LP, however, is a closer call. They just have very opposite approaches to this whole "transitions" thing. Liza has clear steps before both lutzes, which should count for something, but her other jumps do not have Ashley's obvious difficult entries.

What "obvious difficult entries" are you talking about? Ashley doesn't have any. She used to do spread eagle directly into 3Loop but now she breaks position and re-balances herself before going into the jump. Still a transition, but not as difficult. Similarly, she does a (very) short fan spiral and a walley hop, respectively, before her double axels, but then doesn't jump right after doing those movements but instead kind of telegraphs each of those jumps.

 

[mustafakent]

What "obvious difficult entries" are you talking about? Ashley doesn't have any. She used to do spread eagle directly into 3Loop but now she breaks position and re-balances herself before going into the jump. Still a transition, but not as difficult. Similarly, she does a (very) short fan spiral and a walley hop, respectively, before her double axels, but then doesn't jump right after doing those movements but instead kind of telegraphs each of those jumps.

Except lutzes, she has transitions before her jumps.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Except lutzes, she has transitions before her jumps.

There's nothing before the 3Flip. There's nothing before the 3Loop-1Loop-3Sal except posing while changing over to the back outside edge. She has transitions before 3 jumps only (2 of them the easiest jumps) and none of them are direct transitions.

 

[Sandpiper]

What "obvious difficult entries" are you talking about? Ashley doesn't have any. She used to do spread eagle directly into 3Loop but now she breaks position and re-balances herself before going into the jump. Still a transition, but not as difficult. Similarly, she does a (very) short fan spiral and a walley hop, respectively, before her double axels, but then doesn't jump right after doing those movements but instead kind of telegraphs each of those jumps.

YMMV if those were good transitions, but they are obvious transitions nonetheless. She doesn't go as directly from spiral/hop/spread eagle into the jump as she could, but neither do a lot of people (Jason Brown, for instance, hesitates before some of his take-offs. Does that invalidate his transitions?)

Liza's set-ups aren't long, per se (except the 3-3 in the LP), but they are quite basic compared to Ashley's. Even hesitating-Ashley.

I can't believe I'm arguing against Liza. I can't overemphasize how much I love that girl.

EDIT:

There's nothing before the 3Flip. There's nothing before the 3Loop-1Loop-3Sal except posing while changing over to the back outside edge. She has transitions before 3 jumps only (2 of them the easiest jumps) and none of them are direct transitions.

I'd count her entry into 3Lo-1Lo-3S as a transition. She doesn't just barrel into the jump, at any rate (though I kinda wish she would--maybe that'll help with the potential UR).

 

[Blades of Passion]

Liza's set-ups aren't long, per se (except the 3-3 in the LP), but they are quite basic compared to Ashley's. Even hesitating-Ashley.

Doing choctaws into her Lutzes is more difficult than how Ashley enters her axels. The spread eagle leading up to the 3Loop provides more difficulty, and we can definitely say that Ashley is exhibiting greater variety, but then it goes back to how Ashley has more crossovers in the program and less going on inbetween elements. Tukt also has the power pull on her final 2Axel as a jump transition.

I'd count her entry into 3Lo-1Lo-3S as a transition.

Doing a back glide and switching over on the edge while putting your free foot down on the ice is really not a transition to me. It's just a slight variation from the "norm", like a mohawk vs. a three-turn entry for a Triple Flip. If that's a transition then so is Tukt's little hop setup into her 3Flip.

 

[Scovies]

I'd count her entry into 3Lo-1Lo-3S as a transition. She doesn't just barrel into the jump, at any rate (though I kinda wish she would--maybe that'll help with the potential UR).

I don't know if "transition" is the right word, but she's definitely not doing crossovers all over the place to gain speed for that one. See what Kurt Browning has to say on that, calling the entrance "beautiful" and "unusual."

I think it's a little strange that the "golden days of 6.0/Michelle Kwan" are being referred to as a way to discredit the type of skating that happening today. If you look at Michelle's utterly brilliant Tosca program, it's incredibly empty by today's standards and filled with crossovers. I love everything about that program, but using at as some beacon of perfection and then comparing it against IJS requirements doesn't make much sense. She could get away with a 20-second step sequence with turns all in one direction, no transitions, and FAR simpler (i.e., less-exhausting) spins and it's the epitome of everything great about skating, but someone doing their best to make an uncluttered but engaging program that still meets the standards of IJS isn't matching up to someone who never had to consistently skate under such stringent requirements? There's nothing fair about that at all.

 

[doze]

Ashley has withdrawn from 4cc

 

[makaihime]

Ashley has withdrawn from 4cc

This is surprising. Guess she wants to rest up for worlds?

 

[tulosai]

This is surprising. Guess she wants to rest up for worlds?

I am also quite surprised.

Who was the first alternate? Hicks? ETA: No, Cesario.

Happy for her.

 

[doze]

Sam

I am also quite surprised.

Who was the first alternate? Hicks? ETA: No, Cesario.

Happy for her.

Cesario

 

[Blades of Passion]

I think it's a little strange that the "golden days of 6.0/Michelle Kwan" are being referred to as a way to discredit the type of skating that happening today. If you look at Michelle's utterly brilliant Tosca program, it's incredibly empty by today's standards and filled with crossovers.

Transitions is only one component. No, they didn't do many back then, but in terms of performance/choreography/execution it was far better. Kwan's basic skating was better as well. Transitions actually hurt those aspects frequently. For example, Ashley's barely-there fan position and her walley leading up to her 2Axels. They mainly just break the flow leading up into the jumps and instead of focusing on the performance itself, it's focused on doing those moves. If she went into those jumps with speed and powerful clean edges, rather than those added-in-for-no-purpose movements, and got more amplitude on the jumps, it would look better.

 

[flying camel]

Good that Cesario gets to go. I wonder if Gracie is going to withdraw.

 

[tulosai]

Good that Cesario gets to go. I wonder if Gracie is going to withdraw.

Honestly I wish she would because I think it would be really really great for Bell to be able to go and get the international experience. OTOH, if Gracie could go and actually win it could help her going into Words, especially with her standing as 'US #1' not assured at all. That is a big if though since she has still only won one senior international competition of any kind including all the senior B's she has done.

 

[doze]

Good that Cesario gets to go. I wonder if Gracie is going to withdraw.

I hope she does so she can focus on worlds

 

[Scovies]

Transitions is only one component. No, they didn't do many back then, but in terms of performance/choreography/execution it was far better. Kwan's basic skating was better as well. Transitions actually hurt those aspects frequently. For example, Ashley's barely-there fan position and her walley leading up to her 2Axels. They mainly just break the flow leading up into the jumps and instead of focusing on the performance itself, it's focused on doing those moves. If she went into those jumps with speed and powerful clean edges, rather than those added-in-for-no-purpose movements, and got more amplitude on the jumps, it would look better.

I focused on transitions because you keep bringing them up to explain why you disliked Ashley's performance. I still don't know if you want more/better transitions from her or fewer, because you've criticized her from both directions on that point. I also don't think anyone would disagree that performance/execution instantly becomes much easier when you don't have to deal with IJS requirements for spins and footwork.